In the Name of the Fada

Hrududu

In a world without Nationalism we are robots.

Yes Nationalism is the one thing that stops us from being robots. Wheras supporting terrorism makes us fully rounded human beings.

estebancambias

''Tiocfaidh are Lá'' has nothing to do with terrorism.

kittensoft1984

what really annoys me about des bishop is that he pretends that all these shows like his current one and the work experience one are to highlight some cause or other!

its not! its to get new material for his shows and also to revive his failing career and as someone else said im sure the money comes in handy too.

i really wish RTE would stop falling for this sh1t.

FrankGrimes

I really don’t know how anyone watching this series, particularly last night’s episode, with an objective viewpoint could come to the conclusion that Des Bishop’s motives are solely around self-promotion. He cares about the language and the sense of identity it gives him and wants to promote it, if he benefits as a by-product so be it, but I’m convinced his primary motivations are as he states them.

I think this series is fantastic – I don’t think it’s particularly funny (not a fan of Des’ comedy at all), but for me that’s not the point – it’s about raising awareness of the farcical way in which the language is taught in our schools and highlights the pride and sense of identity the being able to speak our native tongue can bring. If that answers the ‘what’s the point in learning Irish’ question for even a small number of people, it was well worth it and this would be one of the few programs I would congratulate RTE on spending my licence fee money on.

I think Des’ disarming style makes for great interactions with various interview subjects and he really has given a refreshing view on the language with the various angles he has come at it from in this series. Watching this show fills me with pride and hope that the language might be revived yet, though it also benefits from nostalgia for me as I went to Irish college just down the road from Leitir Mór in Leitir Mealláin, good times all.

I agree with pretty much everything RedSpider posted. I loved the language from my good times at Irish College and spoke it fluently yet I absolutely hated the subject in school. There’s something wrong with that. If you take a French person and bring them over to Ireland and get them to sit the French leaving cert the next day, they’ll get an A1 as they can speak, listen to, and write the language correctly. The same does not apply with Irish due to the ridiculous inclusion of poetry, comprehension, novels etc. These were included to prolong the sense of culture and heritage attached to the language, but the fact is these are directly contributing to the hatred of the subject. These elements should be removed from the curriculum and either made optional or added as optional segments of the History curriculum. The Department should focus on ensuring people can at least speak the language when they leave school. If they know the ins and outs of the written grammar, that’s a bonus, but a language lives by being spoken so that should be the focus.

This series is definitely doing some good for the language, there may be disagreements about just how much, but even if it was only a small benefit that’s still worth backing.

Maith an fear Des, fair play dhuit.

estebancambias

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I really don’t know how anyone watching this series, particularly last night’s episode, with an objective viewpoint could come to the conclusion that Des Bishop’s motives are solely around self-promotion. He cares about the language and the sense of identity it gives him and wants to promote it, if he benefits as a by-product so be it, but I’m convinced his primary motivations are as he states them.

I think this series is fantastic – I don’t think it’s particularly funny (not a fan of Des’ comedy at all), but for me that’s not the point – it’s about raising awareness of the farcical way in which the language is taught in our schools and highlights the pride and sense of identity the being able to speak our native tongue can bring. If that answers the ‘what’s the point in learning Irish’ question for even a small number of people, it was well worth it and this would be one of the few programs I would congratulate RTE on spending my licence fee money on.

I think Des’ disarming style makes for great interactions with various interview subjects and he really has given a refreshing view on the language with the various angles he has come at it from in this series. Watching this show fills me with pride and hope that the language might be revived yet, though it also benefits from nostalgia for me as I went to Irish college just down the road from Leitir Mór in Leitir Mealláin, good times all.

I agree with pretty much everything RedSpider posted. I loved the language from my good times at Irish College and spoke it fluently yet I absolutely hated the subject in school. There’s something wrong with that. If you take a French person and bring them over to Ireland and get them to sit the French leaving cert the next day, they’ll get an A1 as they can speak, listen to, and write the language correctly. The same does not apply with Irish due to the ridiculous inclusion of poetry, comprehension, novels etc. These were included to prolong the sense of culture and heritage attached to the language, but the fact is these are directly contributing to the hatred of the subject. These elements should be removed from the curriculum and either made optional or added as optional segments of the History curriculum. The Department should focus on ensuring people can at least speak the language when they leave school. If they know the ins and outs of the written grammar, that’s a bonus, but a language lives by being spoken so that should be the focus.

This series is definitely doing some good for the language, there may be disagreements about just how much, but even if it was only a small benefit that’s still worth backing.

Maith an fear Des, fair play dhuit.

Dead right. The show has humour, but is a documentary really.

I thought a lot of it was funny last night though.

EamonnKeane

estebancambias wrote: »

''Tiocfaidh are Lá'' has nothing to do with terrorism.

:pac: Yes it does: how can "Our day shall come" not refer to victory?; and with victory comes an opponent who has been defeated, no?

kittensoft1984

yes but he is only doing it to up his public profile! :mad:

estebancambias

EamonnKeane wrote: »

:pac: Yes it does: how can "Our day shall come" not refer to victory?; and with victory comes an opponent who has been defeated, no?

But where is the terrorism?

Anyway I don't mean it literally, I just mean that sort of Irish mindset must return. Damn you EU!!!!!!!!!!! First they coax us in with CAP, then a single European currency but what next? Slavery? Genocide? Who knows?

BaZmO*

estebancambias wrote: »

But where is the terrorism?

Anyway I don't mean it literally, I just mean that sort of Irish mindset must return. Damn you EU!!!!!!!!!!! First they coax us in with CAP, then a single European currency but what next? Slavery? Genocide? Who knows?

You're obviously too young to remember the mess this country was in before we joined the EU.

estebancambias

BaZmO* wrote: »

You're obviously too young to remember the mess this country was in before we joined the EU.

Ah but sure wasn't it great craic?

BaZmO*

estebancambias wrote: »

Ah but sure wasn't it great craic?

I know you're being facetious but they weren't that great tbh. I kinda do know the point you're making though with regards to national identity.

estebancambias

''facetious''

Don't be saying anything about my face...

I said in the other post, ''must'' bring back Irish mindset....Nobody has to do anything but I think its beneficial.


I kinda do know the point you're making though with regards to national identity

Damn, 'kinda', is that like your talking a load of **** but underneath it all there is some point lurking in the wings ready to come out?:D

lostexpectation

kittensoft1984 wrote: »

what really annoys me about des bishop is that he pretends that all these shows like his current one and the work experience one are to highlight some cause or other!

its not! its to get new material for his shows and also to revive his failing career and as someone else said im sure the money comes in handy too.

i really wish RTE would stop falling for this sh1t.

he's creating work for himself, fun, funny work, that's what we all hope do in life, whats wrong with that, he far more talent then the how low can you go people.

his carrer isn't failing, i noticed a comment by somebody on this site last week about tommy tiernan living off his appearance on father ted for 15 years lol, I mean wtf, you saying he's done nothing since, he hasnt been touring constantly? where do peopel get these gripes from?

redspider

The last episode of 'In the Name of the Fada' was on last night, and once again Des has to be highly commended for taking on this project and succeeding in his goals and learning a lot about himself and Ireland along the way.

Going back to the Irish language discussion, one thing that came across I thought was that Des has fallen 'in love' with the Connemara culture, rather than the Irish language itself. His year of full immersion, living with the people, living the current culture, etc, clearly has made an impression on him and has left its mark. As he says, he wont ever be able to leave Connemara and I expect he will go back there. Who know's, maybe he will move there to live, I'm sure he'd get planning permission ;-)

And that to me is the key. Kids in Ireland who learn Irish through the school curriculum, its a completely different way of learning Irish. They cant afford a year out living down in An Ceathra Rua. They dont get full immersion. They live in an english-speaking world. Irish, for most of them, is an unnecessary 2-hour pain and a mandatory unnecessary pain. They only learn what they have to. There is no love of the language imparted when you lose a mark for getting a fada wrong or the getting grammadach incorrect.

So where to from here? Irish could be taught in schools in a completely different format. Maybe there should be an unexamined Irish course, just for fun and speaking it. Where grammer doesnt matter too much. There could be a separate academic course.

One problem is that no matter how much Irish is learned, it is still of no use to us as a nation economically. Indeed, we have done so well in the global economy because of our good command of english. But what is of some use to us, and what Des fell 'in love' with, is the culture aspect. This is what we sell as tourism, the tourism product, and this should be enhanced and supported. Rural areas, Irish speaking or not, should get equal supports to support communities, to keep the real ireland alive and some of the traditions going. Cities and towns of course play their part as well. Many tourists may come to Ireland and spend time in Dublin and Temple Bar, but that is not real Ireland long-term, is it?

Another point which I may not have mentioned so far, and that is the gaelscoilleanna scourge. Two faults are showing. One, it is a social (or an attempt at) divider for many parents. Fionn and Caoimhe are sent there, whereas Artur or Sunday Mbeki usually aren't. Secondly, a recent study has found that Irish kids at these schools are behind in their english, measurably behind. And these are kids where english was their native tongue. So absorbing Irish diminishes their development of English. Is this what we really should be doing in the modern age where english is an important international lingua franca language? Even though the percentage of effect long-term may be small, it is still there. And for kids that may not have the natural multi-lingual capability in their brains, are we sentencing them to a life of underachievement in all subjects? ie: for some individuals their level may be high. I know of some cases where kids who had some general language problems have been removed from gaelscoil as there english was being held back so much.

Just some things to consider.

Maith an Fear Des ..... well done.

Redspider

ps: Donegal Irish should perhaps be classified as a separate sub-language .... as not even Irish speakers from other areas can understand it and its colloquiallisms, and I understand that the corrollary is also true, Donegal-Irish speakers only understand partially what other Irish speakers say ....

Stollaire

RedSpider

There is no love of the language imparted when you lose a mark for getting a fada wrong or the getting grammadach incorrect.

The key is for parents to speak it to their children, instead of relying on a useless education system.

Secondly, a recent study has found that Irish kids at these schools are behind in their english, measurably behind. And these are kids where english was their native tongue. So absorbing Irish diminishes their development of English

No!
(Is this a case of Flat Earth News/Purple Monkey Dishwasher?)

The complete opposite is true.
It was found that the level of English achieved by pupils attending Gaelscoileanna is above that of pupils in gnáthscoileanna !

De réir an taighde is údarásaí, is substaintiúla agus is cuimsithí go dtí seo, tá sé faighte amach go bhfuil cumas léitheoireachta Béarla i bhfad níos fearr i nGaelscoileanna ná an meánchaighdeán náisiúnta i scoileanna na tíre.

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2583&viewby=date

redspider

Stollaire wrote: »

1. The key is for parents to speak it to there children, instead of relying on a useless education system.

2. No! (Is this a case of Flat Earth News/Purple Monkey Dishwasher?) The complete opposite is true. It was found that the level of English achieved by pupils attending Gaelscoileanna is above that of pupils in gnáthscoileanna !
http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=2583&viewby=date

1. well thats a classic chicken and egg problem there, most parents dont speak Irish to their children as they dont speak Irish themselves, and due to the 'half-life' effect, its not long before their young child is better at Irish than the Parents are (have become)! Parents are not provided with refresher courses.

2. I'm sure I read it somewhere but I cant find a reference to it now. I think the report came out in the last 6 months or so. I'll look again and I'll also read that article on Gaelport, or attempt to. Stats and lies as they say, so we need to dig in to find if the conclusions are correct and have been normalised for other potential factors, biases, etc. The effect I read about was only single figures in percentage terms. I've also read that 'slow-learners' and people with language difficulties (dyslexia) have major problems. Even the head of gaelscoils doesnt want english taught in the schools as he sees it as competing, his words.

Also we need to think of this:

Irish people are the worst in Europe at learning a foreign language accoring to a report out yesterday by the European Commision. The report shows that only 34% of irish people can speak a foreign language, compared to figures of 99% for Luxembourg, 97% for Sweden and 95% for Latvia. 9% said that they can speak Irish fluently. The UK was second worst on the list, with 62% saying they can't speak a foreign language.

http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-152828-16&type=News

So, as a nation, we should be concentrating on english first, as it is useful, then some foreign languages, and Irish after all that. That is the cold economic view of it. Immersing 4 year olds in Irish only schools, is that wise?

Irish is important for our culture, and I would promote it that way and for everybody to speak a fair smattering of it, nios mo than a cupla focal, and probably to mix in Irish culture studies as well, but surely its plain to be seen that 60,000 kids learning fios feasa is a waste of their time. They will absorb it because they have to but they will equally dump it out of their brains as they get older.

The move to 40% aural is a good one in theory, but if its implemented ala the written work its just a change of medium rather than a change in emphasis in how the language is taught.

Redspider

Bushalicious

the reason i cant watch the show is because i hate des bishop. awful stuff. i was listening to the radio yesterday and the woman who commissioned it said that peer presure and des came into her and said they wanted to do it and cos they had a track record they got the money. so same old people getting the money to make television that i dont want to see.

Stollaire

Redspider

1. well thats a classic chicken and egg problem there, most parents dont speak Irish to their children as they dont speak Irish themselves, and due to the 'half-life' effect, its not long before their young child is better at Irish than the Parents are (have become)! Parents are not provided with refresher courses.

You're right that's the problem, but if a parent is serious about imparting a love of Irish to his/her child they they really need to take the situation into their own hands and learn to speak a few loving words of Irish to their children.
There's no love to be found in schools.

I'm sure I read it somewhere but I cant find a reference to it now. I think the report came out in the last 6 months or so. I'll look again and I'll also read that article on Gaelport, or attempt to.

Yeah, the link I posted above is the article about the report/research carried out by UCG which you are referring to, and shows that the standard of English in Gaelscoileanna to be higher than the English only school.

Even the head of gaelscoils doesnt want english taught in the schools as he sees it as competing, his words.

But English is taught in Gaelscoileanna and very well I might add, what you're referring to is early immersion education where in order for a non Irish speaking child to become capable of speaking the language no English is taught in the school for the first year.
This is best international practice and is proven highly efficient.

Immersing 4 year olds in Irish only schools, is that wise?

I guess the results speak for themselves.
The question you should be asking is, is it wise that early immersion isn't carried out in every school.

The Chessplayer

Fair play to Bishop for giving it a lash. Just had a look at it on youtube and he seems to have got a good grasp of Irish.

What's the story with Des Dishop anyway? Is he of irish stock or what? How did he end up over here in the first place? Having a look at his wiki page, doesn't say anything about his early years etc.

Ace7

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.