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help my 16 year old has decided he wants to leave school.

  • 04-04-2008 06:44PM
    #1
    spillane47
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭


    Hi my son has just turned 16 and is refusing to return to school. He did do his jc and did very well and i was very proud.He is adamant that he wants to join the army and we have done alot of research. He has to be 17 so has a year to do what???? Im all up for letting him take it easy for the year,before enrolling in army, but as a single parent, worried about our benefits. He went into fas today looking for work but there's nothing around.Any advice on our predicament i will be very grateful. thanks


«1

Comments

  • #2
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    If he had said that he wanted to basically hang around and drink cider then that would have been a totally different matter.

    As it is, you said that he's done a lot of research and the army is what he wants to do. Fair play to him; he's got a lot more direction than most his age.

    You mentioned being concerned about 'our benefits'. Are you more worried about them than him?

    If he did well academically then why not pursued him to hang on and do the Senior Cert if he can't join for another year anyways?

    As soon as he gets back into fifth year peer pressure might kick in and he might stay the extra year and complete the SC.


  • #3
    jameshayes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    What about trying to convince him that he will do better in the army if he does his leaving cert?


  • #4
    spillane47
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭spillane47


    Thanks Dublinwriter and james for the reply. He's not the drinking type thanks be to god. Im very lucky. Im all up for letting him take the year out before army but he is worried about us getting less benefits because he's not attending school. Im all up for struggle if my bens do decrease!!!!! He's the most wounderful son any mother could wish for. Ive tried my best regarding the leaving cert.


  • #5
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,863 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    It's a bit of a bad age to leave at. Only for the fact that if he leaves now, the last 11 years of his schooling will be voided by most employers if he doesn't have that little piece of paper at the end. Tell him skip transition year, go straight to 5th year and just stick it out till at least the end of 5th year. If he does that, he might just think ok another summer holiday, and then it's just a few months of torture after that. Tell him don't stress about the LC, just do it to get it over and done with. Don't annoy him about studying or anything but offer to help him if he needs it.

    I did the leaving myself but it hasn't made an ounce of difference to my life really. I'm 23 and I run my own business now which is doing pretty well. I never studied at all, even though I did supervised study, my mind wasn't in it, I just sat back and listened to music for most of it or sketched on my copy books. I'm not an academic, I'm the other side of the brain :pac: I passed the leaving on General knowledge pretty much. I didn't get "nothing" out of school though, it was where I got a lot of experience with business having set up my first little business in 1st year and carrying it through to 6th year.

    If your son is determined and is 100% sure about the Army, that's great, but if it's just a way to get out of school then you may want to lay down the law as he might just end up dropping out of that too and depending on his personality, may go downhill from there. But if he has his head screwed on, the leaving cert doesn't mean a thing :)


  • #6
    Bally8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭Bally8


    Maybe you could look into him doing the Leaving Cert Applied. Some schools and teachers look down their noses at it but in reality it is a very good course which helps develop students in a much more practical way giving them skills necessary for the real world of work. He could even try it for just the year- he will still get credits which may make it easier to get into the army. If he is determined to leave the school he is in you could look into Youthreach if there is one in your area.


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  • #7
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    if he wants to be in the army he should do his leaving and go for a cadetship

    iirc(and im open to correction) enlisted men get 5/6 year contracts with no guarantee of renewal so what happens if they dont want him when he is 23?

    leaving school after the junior cert is a bad idea, the army is great sure but not for a 17 yr old with very little education imo.

    maybe im a cynic(sp) but i would place a large sum of money that if he isnt a drinker now he will be by the end of his "year out"

    i think your letting him off easy by being so supportive of this my cousin left when she was 16 and now 4 years later is back doing the leaving cert course in 1 year this year coz she realised how few her options were with no leaving not to mind no college education.

    im not casting any aspertions(again sp) on you as i dont know your personal situation but you are worrying about your benefits right? do you want your son to need to worry about his benefits in 5/10/15 yrs time or would you prefer he did not have to worry about money to the extent that you do? assuming its the latter do you think letting him leave school at 16 is the best way to this goal?


  • #8
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    Hi OP. I'm 17 and I am currently in part-time employment but yet in 5th year in school.

    My advice to your son would be to stick it out at least 'til the Leaving. From my experience in work, being 17 and in the workplace is terrible. I deal with people and while for the most part its fine, the people who refuse to talk to me 'cause I'm so young is frustrating. I have seen people who although they may not be smart, because they have some education they excel in life. They tend to excel far more than those with none.

    Have you asked your son about what happens if he doesn't like the army?
    No one can be fully sure what they want at 16, my mind changes on my career choice once a month. And I thought I was 100% going to follow one path at his age. If he doesn't like the army after 2/3 years, he is really and truely up sh*t creek. The day of manual labour by and large in this country is gone and the amount of options open to him will be very limited.

    My advice would be to get him to continue with education as far as possible and to join the army reserve if he wants to go that way in life as well.


  • #9
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    When I was 16 I was convinced I wanted to leave school too. by the time I was 23 I was still sitting around in lecture rooms at college jotting notes down. A little dose of reality will kick in soon enough when he realises no one will take him on. Going to FAS and appling for jobs at his age is the best dose of reality he can get cos he will be told by everyone he needs to at least stay for his leaving cert.

    convince him to stay in school till he's 17. A year down the road I'd be surprised if he hadn't changed his mind somewhat. At that stage whats another year staying on in school to finish his leaving. One step at a time.


  • #10
    spillane47
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭spillane47


    Thankyou all so very much for your replies
    Ive entered into everything that all of you have replied with so far, believe me ive tried everything. My only hope now is to show him what Ive posted on this board and the replies. Keep them coming is all I can say. He won't listen to me and why should he Im only his mother.


  • #11
    Gran Hermano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,329 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    Might be worthwhile starting a thread on the Boards Military Board here
    Several of the posters there have experience of the Irish army first hand
    and should be able to give the pros/cons of applying to the army without
    a leaving cert. I'd be surprised if any of them will recommend enlisting
    without. Whilst not always enjoyable education is rarely wasted and if in
    your shoes I'd do everything possible to keep him in school.


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  • #12
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    It really is the wrong time to be leaving school early. I don't know how aware he is of the bigger picture but the economy is heading down at the moment. Highly educated / qualified people are losing jobs and jobless numbers are increasing all the time.

    The next few years don't look great for the country as a whole tbh. He would be doing well to ride out any recession/ period of non growth by staying in education and hoping times will be better when he gets out of school, or at least give himself a fighting chance of getting what little jobs that might be available by having some kind of education behind him.

    The more options he gives himself the better because everyone’s options (including experienced qualified people) will be limited in a recession situation.

    In any case, I would at least make sure his application to join the army is accepted before he quits school. Do not allow him to quit and hope that in a year’s time he will automatically walk into a career in the military. He can always join the reserves in his last year of school if he wants to get a taste for it. http://www.military.ie/reserves/join/index.htm
    The army will still be there when he finishes the leaving.


  • #13
    DublinDilbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭DublinDilbert


    spillane47 wrote: »
    Im all up for letting him take the year out before army but he is worried about us getting less benefits because he's not attending school.

    It all depends on what you mean by taking a year out....

    Is it a year for him to go out in to the working world get some life experience, see how little you do get paid starting off and how hard you have to work for it....
    Or
    Is it a year for getting up late every day and maybe doing a p/t job for some pocket money.

    By the tone of your post i would guess you wouldn't mind him having an "easy" year before going into the army.

    I guess you can't force him to do the leaving cert, but it would be good if he could experience the working world, he'll realise that its not easy... Also a few years ago people with no qualifications could get paid decent money to fill skips on a building site, unfortunately them days are gone...

    It would stand to him for life if he could finish his leaving, by the sounds of it he is well capable of it.

    As an aside:- I know people who train recruits in the army and there is a fair amount of literacy problems, which is hard to believe in this Celtic tiger generation, the army does try to help people out in this regard during training...


  • #14
    damnyanks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    If he really wants to join the army you should try and point him towards officers / cadets. He'll need the leaving cert to do that but it will give him better prospects in life.

    He could go straight into 5th year now so 1 extra year in school and he'll come out with the leaving cert and in the army with plenty of opportunities made available.


  • #15
    damnyanks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    Oh yes in the meantime get him into the FCA. (Part time army).


  • #16
    gubby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭gubby


    I am wondering if its the school that is turning him off? would there be any chance of him doing the leaving in another school. just a thought


  • #17
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    spillane47 wrote: »
    Hi my son has just turned 16 and is refusing to return to school. He did do his jc and did very well and i was very proud.He is adamant that he wants to join the army and we have done alot of research. He has to be 17 so has a year to do what???? Im all up for letting him take it easy for the year,before enrolling in army, but as a single parent, worried about our benefits. He went into fas today looking for work but there's nothing around.Any advice on our predicament i will be very grateful. thanks

    look into yout reach and see if they have a centre near you


  • #18
    light123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 54 ✭✭light123


    Hi there,

    I would make a serious effort to see a carerr officer in the army that you would see yourself first.

    I would see what the officer would think, what they could impress upon your son, ie that leaving school and only wanting to go into the army maybe easy but not good thinking, ie, you want the officer to impress the idea that not finishing school will make for a very foolish private. Being a private is one thing but being a uneducated private is another.


  • #19
    cronos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭cronos


    spillane47 wrote: »
    Hi my son has just turned 16 and is refusing to return to school. He did do his jc and did very well and i was very proud.He is adamant that he wants to join the army and we have done alot of research. He has to be 17 so has a year to do what???? Im all up for letting him take it easy for the year,before enrolling in army, but as a single parent, worried about our benefits. He went into fas today looking for work but there's nothing around.Any advice on our predicament i will be very grateful. thanks

    Sorry to have to say this but the JC means nothing from a employer perspective. So doing well in it also dosent matter. Its a prep test for the LC. If you only take the prep test and not the real version which is the LC then you get nothing.

    Can you do the leaving cert in one year instead of two. It would be a lot of work but all he would need to get is somewhere between 300 and 350 points and he would have a lot of options in the future.

    Being educated is as usefull in the army as it is in the rest of your life.


  • #20
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    He may not be able to enter the Army at 17. He will have to make an application and wait for a call. It often takes months. Priority will be given to members of the reserve. The first thing the army will want to do is send him to night classes for his leaving cert.The army will not be impressed to learn that he has been idling before making an application to join. Your son should get a job or stay in school. He should not doss around under any circumstances.
    He will likely end up not getting into the army if he dosses around.
    Even if he does get in, staying in the army after the initial contract depends on passing courses. Not doing the leaving is likely to hinder his chances severely.
    The army looks for balance. Being hard working, interested in learning and sport are the qualities sought.
    Maybe your son has a problem at school. Is he being bullied? How about a different school?


  • #21
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,863 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    cronos wrote: »
    Being educated is as usefull in the army as it is in the rest of your life.

    He has probably received all of the education he's ever likely to use in the "real world" already. Most of what you do in 5th and 6th not being of any practical use.


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  • #22
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    cormie wrote: »
    He has probably received all of the education he's ever likely to use in the "real world" already. Most of what you do in 5th and 6th not being of any practical use.

    coz no1 needs a good command of the english language(how will he write a good letter of application to get this wonderous job that will hire him with no lc) or maths to get by on life. he has the basics he dosnt even have average education after the junior cert he is at least 2 years below average.

    education is not about preparing you to "just get by" in the "real world" were u stop once you know you have had just enough.

    for example without my education i would not now be in college if i wasnt in college i wouldnt be able to afford to go to scuba diving lessons(free with the college club) i wouldnt be able to afford to go to martial arts class's(free with the college club) and i especially wouldnt have jumped out of a plane 6 times this year and be going to the states this summer to pack parachutes and skydive. even if i never get my degree sticking threw the bull**** of a leaving cert and making a few mistakes of choices afterwards was worth it so that i could experience all these things.


    sure there are people who are great success's who never did a junior cert and there are even ones who never had a formal education at all but why do things the hard way? i guarantee you there are more success's who went threw an entire education.


  • #23
    buckfast4me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭buckfast4me


    Well.. Mcdonalds are always hiring if the military doesn't work. Seriously tell him to cop the feck on. I was the same when I was in 3rd year, thought I could take the world on bla bla etc. But luckily my parents didn't let me drop out - and now I am about 3 weeks away from finishing a 4 year honours degree.

    I think he is insane to be honest, leaving cert isn't even that difficult (well I would imagine it's a lot easier than life in the military).


  • #24
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,863 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    coz no1 needs a good command of the english language(how will he write a good letter of application to get this wonderous job that will hire him with no lc) or maths to get by on life.

    The Mathematics and English we are taught in our education system up to the Junior cert level should be enough to be able to write a properly crafted letter and work out most mathematical obstacles we're ever likely to encounter.

    There is also the option of going back to college as a mature student at 23, where the leaving cert is not a necessity.


  • #25
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    cormie wrote: »
    The Mathematics and English we are taught in our education system up to the Junior cert level should be enough to be able to write a properly crafted letter and work out most mathematical obstacles we're ever likely to encounter.

    There is also the option of going back to college as a mature student at 23, where the leaving cert is not a necessity.

    to do what exactly with only a jc education? sure he might be able to get in(its interview based iirc) but will he be able to put 2K-10K word essays together required for arts or get threw the basic maths required for business and god help him if he decides to do engineering or computers.


    once again im not saying he wont do fine im just saying he has a much higher chance of being able to do what he wants for the rest of his life if he gets his leaving cert


  • #26
    Fremen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    I honestly don't know much about the army, but as far as I know they're pretty big into developing people who work for them- sending them to college and so on.

    Is it possible that if he does well in the army, they'll end up getting him to do his leaving cert anyway?


  • #27
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Fremen wrote: »
    I honestly don't know much about the army, but as far as I know they're pretty big into developing people who work for them- sending them to college and so on.

    Is it possible that if he does well in the army, they'll end up getting him to do his leaving cert anyway?

    they send officers to college not enlisted men as far as i know but op it would be a good idea to ask in the military forum about that sort of thing

    anyway think thats me done in this thread


  • #28
    cronos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭cronos


    cormie wrote: »
    He has probably received all of the education he's ever likely to use in the "real world" already. Most of what you do in 5th and 6th not being of any practical use.

    With respect I would have to disagree (but only in defence of certain subjects and their importance in the army). If at some point in the future the cadette wants to become a senior officer they will need to understand maths and physics.

    Why is this important...
    One good example is the physics experiment where the speed of a bullet is discussed. Also another experiment discusses bullet trajectories. And trajectories of other objects.

    In the past when their has been the biggest war efforts. (EG World war 2). The war was won by mathematicians working a long way from the front line. Building new advanced weapons and also from generals who had an understanding of the organization of troops (organization of people is discussed in business but obviously not exactly the same as the army but parallels can be drawn) Its also important to note that if the cadette is sent to far away lands as is generally the case with UN peace keeping which is the majority of what our army does. They will prob have to learn a new language and learning languages is covered by (irish, german, french, spanish) Of course it may not be the case that these are the languages required however it is a lot easier to learn a new language if you have previously learned a language that is not your mother tounge.


  • #29
    cormie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,863 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    Of course more education would be of great benefit to those who progress to such levels or choose certain subjects in college. I just meant most people will never come across anything they studied in 5th and 6th year again once they go out and start working.

    I don't know anything about what happens in the army and I'm sure there are specialist routes of promotion etc that can be taken with a better education. I'm just saying that most wont encounter these and in a lot of cases, not just in the army, specialist training will be provided as the individual progresses.


  • #30
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,426 ✭✭✭testicle


    The Army won't take him without a Leaving Cert these days. While it isn't a formal requirement, enough applicant have it.


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  • #31
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,467 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Some interesting and downright strange and snobby attitudes coming out in some of the replies here.

    OP - your possible loss of benefits is neither here nor there - even mentioning it rings alarm bells for me.

    Speak to the child's school. This should have been the first thing you did.

    Of course, he should try to get a Leaving Cert., but if he doesn't, he joins 20% of school leavers who don't have one (boards users do not reflect society) - he will not be alone. 'Only 300 or 350 points' is actually way above an average Leaving Certificate level.

    He can always return to education later - indeed a dose of reality might make him realise this is what he needs to do. No amount of you telling him this will make it happen though. He has to realise it himself.

    If he is accepted into the army, he will soon realise that there is only so far he can go with his level of education. This may be OK by him, we're not all born to be leaders, but it might become a great source of frustration.

    As pointed out by others, outside the army he will be in the bottom 20% for getting jobs/training etc.. Inside the army he will not progress as quickly and easily as the cadets (with their Leaving Certs) do.


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