clean-respectable - irish language debate

Mr. CooL ICE · 01-04-2008 07:28PM

conor2007 wrote: »

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

No. I am irish, yet I cannot speak irish. Saying that it is my language is (in my language) an oxymoron. Simple.

Take another country, e.g. Switzerland. Swiss people's language isn't simply swiss, just because they come from there. The country's state languages are french, italian, romansh and german. People in the french-speaking regions of switzerland's languages would obviously be french, and same would go for people in the other language regions. Since irish is mainly spoken in the gaeltacht areas of Ireland and english spoken everywhere else (and most of these people couldn't string an irish sentence together), how would that make these people's language irish? Makes no bloody sense...

I am not swiss and don't know many swiss people, so this is open for correction

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 07:29PM

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Mr. CooL ICE · 01-04-2008 07:41PM

conor2007 wrote: »

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Was this directed at me? If so, I never said it was the official language of the gaeltacht

twinQuins · 01-04-2008 07:41PM

conor2007 wrote: »

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Taken from the Constitution:

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

We live in a bilingual state. However, the stark reality is the majority of the populace speak English as their primary language.

EDIT:

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Care to elaborate?

pretty*monster · 01-04-2008 07:44PM

conor2007 wrote: »

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

In certain contexts, yeah, it would be pretty damn rude.

thelordofcheese · 01-04-2008 07:53PM

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Then where do you suppose the apathy and outright distain that many people seem to have for the irish language comes from?

Slutmonkey57b · 01-04-2008 08:35PM

conor2007 wrote: »

as said its your national language

conor2007 wrote: »

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

please debate that - i never said you have to like or speak it

Point disproved above - thank you Morkarleth.

Irish is not our "national language". It is one of two official languages.
They are not languages of equal status either. Irish may be the "first" official language but English is the only effective language for the vast majority of the population. What historical forces drove it to that point of dominance are at this point immaterial.

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

As am I.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Then where do you suppose the apathy and outright distain that many people seem to have for the irish language comes from?

Not from the schools but from the language. The country has had almost 100 years to reverse the decline of the language and has failed miserably. This despite shedloads of money and many changes in teaching and presentation.

conor2007 wrote: »

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

No. If you deliberately exclude people from a conversation you're rude.

Speaking for myself, I think the language is a joke. What is presented as Irish today is a fake mishmash of a language created for polictical reasons. It has as much relevence to us as mud huts. It's unnecessary, and while some people like it to be part of their heritage, they shouldn't have the power to force it on everyone else with their righteous "true irish" bullsh!t attitude, the worst and most heinous example of which is the forcing of Irish as an official language into the EU - thereby wasting not just OUR money but hundreds of millions of OTHER EU member state's taxes in propping it up.

bitemybanger · 01-04-2008 08:42PM

Id love to be able to have a full conversation in my naitive tounge and not just the bacic"hello, how are you, my name is, therse not a cloud in the sky" type of conversation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-04-2008 08:56PM

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Be that as it may, this is most people's first experience of the language. And when you're a kid, anything seen as a school subject has ground to make up. The main problem, though, is it is taught as a school suject. It is NOT taught as something to be passionate or even proud about it.

It always amazes me the way people who want to see a revival think that this isn't important. "Force it upon them and they shall learn". How is this supposed to work?

Now, to an earlier point: you described Irish as my national language, which may be true - I have no say in that matter - but that does not make it my personal language. I do have a say in that matter, and you, my friend, do not.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 08:57PM

me personally , if i speak irish and you want to know what im saying i will explain
obviously ill leave out personal details - but id help ya

but if you ever tried to call me rude for speaking anything id tell ya where to go

Neamhshuntasach · 01-04-2008 08:57PM

I speak Gaeilge and i have 3 mates who are into making an effort to learn it. I think it's great and respect anyone trying to learn our language. Two of them went to Trinity and got to know someone studying Gaeilge. Through knowing him and they got to know others in the class as did i when i went out on some of their student nights. And i have to say a lot of them where the elitist types that have been mentioned in this thread. They resented that he was trying to learn it and also the fact that i just spoke it in a normal Dublin accent (without any real dialect) as i learned it from one of my parents. I never went to a Gaelscoil or anything. I hate them types. A lot of them were just sent to a Gaelscoil by parents without any choice as they were just kids. They don't know what it's like to learn a language at an older age or how difficult and how much dedication is needed so they look down on those trying. Fair play to anyone who makes an effort at our language. All Gaelgoirs should be as welcoming as foreign people are when you try learn their language. I would have gave up on Spanish if it wasn't for the encouragement from the central Americans i knew.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 08:59PM

thats your teachers fault-not everyones view

i ha ve said - you dont have to like/speak or even ackknowledge it
still your national language tho

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 09:01PM

fair play to ya - your trying - and me personally would help anyone to learn
as it is a language - im still learning also - as with english etc
dont get me started on trinity

Ron DMC · 01-04-2008 09:11PM

conor2007 wrote: »

dont get me started on trinity

Go on... I can't wait to hear this.

Kernel32 · 01-04-2008 09:12PM

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

I like most of us studied Irish all the way through to leaving cert. I also did French for my 5 years in secondary. Overall I was a good student in school, I excelled in maths and anything related and did better than most in other subjects. I struggled with Irish and French day in and day out. While I did well in the leaving cert, Irish and French dragged me down to what otherwise would have been results that were in the top percentages. I only studied French because I was told I needed a foreign language for university.

Personally I do blame how the languages were taught. I simply was and am not good at languages. But I wish I could have come away knowing a lot more, like hold a basic conversation in French or Irish which I cannot do. I don't blame the teachers though. They do play a part but in my case I liked my French teacher and she tried really hard to help me, whereas the Irish teacher put the pass students to the back of the class to struggle alone while the honours students sat up front with the teacher. The end result was similar in both cases, I still had trouble learning the languages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-04-2008 09:20PM

conor2007 wrote: »

thats your teachers fault-not everyones view

i ha ve said - you dont have to like/speak or even ackknowledge it
still your national language tho

Nope wrong again - the school I went to was not the only one in whcih it was a compulsory subject. FACT - it IS a compulsory subject. FACT - a small percentage manage fluency in their school career. Generally speaking, there is more empasis on the compulsory element than the actual pride/passion element.

I know kids who speak fluent Irish for one reason: they like it. Most of the kids who HAVE to learn it, tend not to.

I've already commente on the national language / personal language differences.

sharkDawg · 01-04-2008 09:23PM

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 09:35PM

english maths are compulsorary
a language is also in most schools - so boo hoo really on that point

nesf · 01-04-2008 09:40PM

There was some confusion over my post detailing the status of English in the Charter thread. I've edited it to clarify things but, honestly, it's an Irish Language forum, of course English isn't meant to be used there. My point was that we're not going to be pricks and start handing out bans for honest mistakes by people not realising this. Just because we won't ban you for something, doesn't mean it's allowed or encouraged etc.

The forum is there for general conversation as Gaeilge (an AH in Irish essentially), if people want to ask a question in English about Irish then the Gaeilge forum is the place to do it.

The reason for a blanket ban on English is that the intent of the forum was to give people a place to converse freely in Irish. It is elitist in the sense that if you can't speak the language (or are like me and are more used to listening to it than typing it) then it's hard to interact on it, however; that's not that big a deal really when there's the alternative that is the Gaeilge forum. It's not a perfect solution but I can't think of a better one really. If you can't speak Irish, why would you want to post in an Irish only forum etc.

alexjk · 01-04-2008 09:41PM

i always find it odd that people refer to the language known today as irish as "our" language while just sweeping away the other languages (besides from english) that were spoken here until the recent past such as Fingalian and Yola. Why does one language get preference over those others as our "native" language?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-04-2008 09:44PM

conor2007 wrote: »

english maths are compulsorary
a language is also in most schools - so boo hoo really on that point

What does the compulsory nature of English and Maths mean in the context of this debate?

I'm not entirely sure what you're reading into my posts or where you're finding the hostility. I'm completely (and somewhat ironially) neurtal on this point.

If you want Irish to make a comeback, make it appeal to kids. Inspire people to inspire them. Don't force it. You force a child to do ANYTHING and you're going to face rebellion. If you don't, then carry on and so nothing. It's YOUR choice and I have no problem with whatever choice you make

GhostInTheRuins · 01-04-2008 09:50PM

The schools really are to blame, I don't care what you say. For my LC I had 4 different Irish teachers, it seemed every 3 months we would get a new one. Each one worse than the last. Most of the time we were force fed **** Irish poetry that we had to learn word for word, with absolutely no relevance to learning the language. It got to the point that I began to hate it just because of the way it was thought.

To be honest, ever since I left school I feel cheated that I was never thought the language properly and would honestly love to be able to speak it fluently. If you think the word cheated is over the top then I'd like to know how you can explain that I can speak French much, much better than I can Irish and I only studied French for 3 years at Junior cert level. The way it's thought needs to be seriously examined if people want to preserve it.

My 2c

01-04-2008 10:00PM

I can't personaly comment on the education system as I was educated in the UK, but it seems to me that the main obsticle to the Irish language is simply the fact that most people see it as a waste of time and has no use in the modern world.
OK Ireland has experienced a language shift, but there is nothing to stop Gaeilge co-existing with English if people want it to! There are several European countries (Nederlands, Danmark etc) that have relativly small populations and are proud of their language and of their ability to speak at least one other language. It's true that Irish has limited use outside the country, but so does Dutch & Danish to the peoples of those countries. As for learning Polish instead of Irish, forget it, those that are staying will learn English the rest will return to poland, also they prefer to keep their language to themselves!

I am learning Irish from scratch, just for personal enjoyment - must be mad one of the biggest problems I am having is finding Irish speakers willing to put up with my (currently) awful Irish.
Whenever I tell anyone that I am interested in the Irish language, the resopnse of many is " why bother with that, it's a waste of time!". With attitudes like that, Gaeilge will struggle.

Just because a language is old & overshadowed, doesn't mean it can't be used, look at Wales! There is an example of how a bi-lingual country can work, Welsh was also in decline until recently. There had been a renewed interest since Devolution and a significant percentage of the population have fallen in love with their historic tongue and are learning and passing it to their children.

nesf · 01-04-2008 10:01PM

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

The schools really are to blame, I don't care what you say.

+1

I had my share of good and bad teachers in school but honestly, I had **** all Irish when I left school by the end of it. My German was far better and my German wasn't at all good.

nesf · 01-04-2008 10:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am learning Irish from scratch, just for personal enjoyment - must be mad one of the biggest problems I am having is finding Irish speakers willing to put up with my (currently) awful Irish.

Most of the Irish speakers I know, and these are native speakers, academics in the subject and other such "serious" speakers of the language are extremely happy when someone tries to talk to them in Irish, no matter how bad it is. Anyone making a genuine effort to use it is to be commended, any Irish speaker who gives you crap or the cold shoulder because you aren't fluent isn't a person worth talking to in any language in my opinion.

01-04-2008 10:07PM

alexjk wrote: »

i always find it odd that people refer to the language known today as irish as "our" language while just sweeping away the other languages (besides from english) that were spoken here until the recent past such as Fingalian and Yola. Why does one language get preference over those others as our "native" language?

There are hundreds of regional (European) languages that have died out in the past couple of centuries, as well as dialects merged. It's much easier to reverse a language shift if there are a significant number of speakers of the old language, than to recreate it from archives (Hebrew being the exception).

DáireM · 01-04-2008 11:13PM

I speak reasonable Irish (went to a bunscoil & am doing honours course for leaving) and hopefully will one day send my kids to gaelscoileanna as I love the language.

To be honest I think that most of the problem stems from the primary schools' teaching, people come into secondary with barely a word (in most cases) and are expected to be reasonably fluent by the end of 6th year which is completely unrealistic and places too much pressure on students.

As someone who went from speaking Irish everyday at a decent standard into and English secondary school the difference in the levels or Irish between students who came from different schools was pretty big. Some could hold down a basic conversation (came from English speaking schools) while some could just about say their names.

I don't know what the Irish language training is like for primary schools teachers but if they could at least teach a few basic verbs and some grammar it'd go a long way towards making it a much more accessible language to students.

Trojan911 · 01-04-2008 11:32PM

I would love to speak Irish fluently, but I don't. So, I don't miss it as a language.

JC 2K3 · 01-04-2008 11:48PM

What's the point of this topic?

It seems conor2007 decided he wanted a quasi-nationalistic argument so he made this substanceless thread.

Toto Wolfcastle · 01-04-2008 11:52PM

I went to an all-Irish secondary school (but an English speaking primary school), I have a degree in Irish, and I'm currently teaching Irish. I like to see people making an effort to speak Irish, but I don't condemn those who get it wrong or those who don't try. Everyone has a right to speak whichever language they choose.

I do think that some Irish speakers are elitist. I know of a few people who think that they're great because they can speak it. Personally, I know that if I'd gone to an English-speaking school I would not be able to speak Irish because I'm not a languages person.

I don't blame the way Irish is taught (although I would say that!) but I do blame the curriculum. There is not enough emphasis on oral Irish, which people might actually use. Let's face it, the majority of people are going to leave school and never speak Irish again. Ya, teach a few poems, a few stories, but make it interesting to students! I have 1st years asking me what the point of learning Irish is, and I can't answer them.

Students get so bored in school sometimes, particularly with some aspects of Irish, and this doesn't help learning. Whereas today I played Galway Girl in Irish and the students picked up a few new words and phrases because they were interested in it.

In short, Irish for the win, elitism for the lose!

clean-respectable - irish language debate

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