clean-respectable - irish language debate

conor2007

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor2007 wrote: »

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

It's not eleitist - I don;t know any irish speakers, so I can;t comment. I do object ot people calling it my language because of my background in the same way people called Catholicism my religion.

And out before the lock!

helimachoptor

Frankly I am annoyed with myself that I dont know my own language better. I work abroad a good bit and even in Ireland I work with a lot of non native english speakers. The fact that most of them have at least 2 languages (their mother tongue & english) and most people in Ireland have English is shameful.

Now I know this is an effect of what happened when England invaded but I mean how long ago was that??

If people wish to speak Irish and have it survive they need to put in the effort. For me I try to speak it with my GF as often as possible as she is very good. I am slowly getting better to the point that when abroad and I talk to her and a couple of other friends I try to talk in Irish as much as possible, you should see the confused looks I get sometimes when i'm away .

Later I will be sending my kids to a Gaelscoil.

Ron DMC

Although I love the language, I dislike the fact that many Irish speakers see themsleves as the Lord almighty just because they speak it. Having a certain language makes you no better than anyone else on this earth. Being an asshole about it makes you worse than others tbh.

People can choose themselves whether they speak a language or not, and it's fairly obvious that most Irish people freely choose to go about their daily business speaking English (as do I for a good 80-90% of the time).

Fair play to people that like speaking (incl me), but it's not up to us to force it down other people's throats.

conor2007

yes ,i have english also

this wont be locked-it is your language - how is catholicism your religion ? and find me one person who would say that

conor2007

i would speak it daily - english and irish - so i would be in that category

i have never seen an irish person being elitist about it

Ron DMC

conor2007 wrote: »

it is your language

No it isn't. He said so himself.

i have never seen an irish person being elitist about it

You certainly haven't shown yourself to be Johnny Welcomemat to people who dislike the tongue (who are entitled to their opinions)

Unaton

I would love to learn it just for the learning sake. I mean, I speak German and Dutch but can only say a couple of phrases in Irish.

thelordofcheese

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

Although I love the language, I dislike the fact that many Irish speakers see themsleves as the Lord almighty just because they speak it. Having a certain language makes you no better than anyone else on this earth. Being an asshole about it makes you worse than others tbh.

People can choose themselves whether they speak a language or not, and it's fairly obvious that most Irish people freely choose to go about their daily business speaking English (as do I for a good 80-90% of the time).

Fair play to people that like speaking (incl me), but it's not up to us to force it down other people's throats.

There we go, thread over.
Ronny has put it perfectly, if i could thank you for that post i would.

We can all go home now.

conor2007

thelordofcheese wrote: »

There we go, thread over.
Ronny has put it perfectly, if i could thank you for that post i would.

We can all go home now.

that doesnt mean we should loose our language
do french speak it daily - chinese - etc etc etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor2007 wrote: »

yes ,i have english also

this wont be locked-it is your language - how is catholicism your religion ? and find me one person who would say that

Virtually everyone in my family a generation above me. I decide what is or isn't my believe and language, thank you. Irish is just a word in my passport, and the only reason it's there is because I can't get out of the country without it. There are far more interesting and attractive languages out there.

conor2007

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

No it isn't. He said so himself.



You certainly haven't shown yourself to be Johnny Welcomemat to people who dislike the tongue (who are entitled to their opinions)

i told desf - to pm me or to put it in the irish forum
and i would help him to the best of my ability

how is that not being ''welcome''/ welcoming

Dave!

I do not see it as elitist, and think that broad opinions should not be based on online discussions with an unrepresentative group.

If someone wants to give up on a language based on that experience, that's their perogative, but I think it is very silly of them.

Sin é.

conor2007

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Virtually everyone in my family a generation above me. I decide what is or isn't my believe and language, thank you. Irish is just a word in my passport, and the only reason it's there is because I can't get out of the country without it. There are far more interesting and attractive languages out there.

thats your opinion , not stopin gyou from learning-speaking or loving them language

they still wont be your language - the language of the country you were born

Adam

conor2007 wrote: »

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

I've never had a problem with irish, or any of it's speakers, bar you with your attitude regarding the language. And that's all I'll say on the matter because there's already an entire thread of examples of said attitude.

conor2007

DaveMcG wrote: »

I do not see it as elitist, and think that broad opinions should not be based on online discussions with an unrepresentative group.

If someone wants to give up on a language based on that experience, that's their perogative, but I think it is very silly of them.

Sin é.

''like , omg , you should be like totally banned man , cos loike i speak fluently in several languages - and you speak filthy backwards irish - my god loike you are so elitist''

no seriously good point

conor2007

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

please debate that - i never said you have to like or speak it

Silent Partner

I'd love to be able to speak Irish fluently. I see it as our national language and of huge importance to our heritage and identity.
I worked in a place in the UK for 6 months with another Irish friend of mine. There we had two people from South Africa, two from Nigeria and two from Spain. They could all converse amongst themselves in their national tongues. The best myself and my friend could manage were a few words mingled with English.
I think the problem stems with how the language is thought in schools. It's thought at basic level in primary school and then in secondary school, they just assumed you had grasped the basics and tried more advanced stuff. As a result, I was completely lost (along with many of my fellow students).
I did German right through Junior & Leaving Cert. and I knew more German and was better equipped to carry a small conversation in German by the end of 2nd Year than I was after 8 years of primary school Irish teaching.

School students see the language as too much hard work and unfortunately many of them do view it as a waste of time. Along with Maths (eg. Algebra, Trig etc.), they figure that they'll never use it in the "real" world. What I'd love to see is Irish being thought as a living language in schools and linking it in with our history and heritage (eg. Celtic Mythology, the struggle for Irish independence). I think the Government should be doing as much as possible to promote the language and turn it into a real every day language rather than a novelty.

Hrududu

I was never very good at Irish in school. I had enough to get through the LC and that was about it. When I left school I was glad that I didnt have to do it anymore. Just like I was glad that I didnt have to do some other subjects anymore either. I'm too lazy to pick it up again now. And it would be a waste if I did. I don't know a single person that speaks it, so all that learning would go nowhere.

As for it being my language, well my native tongue is English, it was what I grew up speaking. I don't see how something I learned in school could be considered "my language" over the language I think in.

conor2007

as said its your national language

thelordofcheese

conor2007 wrote: »

that doesnt mean we should loose our language
do french speak it daily - chinese - etc etc etc

I very much doubt the french speak it daily.

anyway, we've already lost it, it's not the primary language of the country, outside of a relatively small number of enthuaists it's all but dead but that's neither here nor there.
You started the thread to see why people "see it as elitist" and i think Ronny summed it up perfectly.

NoQuarter

thelordofcheese wrote: »

anyway, we've already lost it, it's not the primary language of the country,

it might not be the most widely spoken language, but it is the first official language of ireland. English is the second official language or ireland.

thelordofcheese

The 'official' language of ireland and the primary language are two different things.
Officially, we speak Irish first, then English, but the reality is very different. Not that it's news to anyone really, but i'm just clarifying what i meant.

SantryRed

Being forced to learn it in school isn't right in my opinion.

Dudess

I'm glad Irish is taught at school but I don't think it should be mandatory at leaving cert level - then again I don't think any subject should be mandatory at leaving cert level. From junior infants to junior cert, definitely. That's enough of a window to figure out what you're good at/bad at, what you like/dislike (well ideally anyway). I find the leaving cert system very flawed, but that's a different argument.

However I found leaving cert Irish unbearably boring and tedious. Up to junior cert I never got less than a B+. It became such a chore at leaving cert level. It went from being a subject I liked (didn't love but didn't mind it either) to a subject I utterly loathed. I found most of the leaving cert boring, but Irish in particular. Now I'm an example of someone who would never, EVER go near Irish again. And I haven't. It's 12 years since I did the leaving and I can barely string a sentence together as gaeilge. I blame that poxy leaving cert Irish course.

Gummy Panda

Don't speak and don't care to learn tbh. I blame the terrible teachers who taught it during my secondary school years.

Also Polish interests me. Could come in handy in future ireland

ergonomics

Can't understand why people think those who speak Irish are 'elitist'.

I am fluent in Irish, I study it in college and I use it in my working life. Rather than being elitist, I cringe when people say 'Oh WOW! You're fluent in Irish!!!' (which I get a lot). I've also had people introduce me as 'This is Aoife, she's fluent in Irish'. It's not a big deal, it's just part of my heritage. You don't introduce people as being fluent in French. I rarely speak it in public though because I find that when I do people often give me strange looks. I really resent that.

I think the language could be better taught in schools. I hated it in primary but when I went on to secondary I went to an all-Irish school (don't know why) and became immersed in the language. As a result, I fell in love. If it was taught better I think the opinion of it would drastically changed.

twinQuins

I still remember my old teacher. My elder brother was taught under him and apparently the man had a history of aggression (threw a table across a room once). I moved down to Ordinary Level for the LC and...his attitude was unbearable. He treated the class like a collective of idiots; as if we were incapable of grasping even the simplest concepts.
He would deign to talk to us like a band of infants. He would bang his head against the wall or walk off for a few moments before coming back with that insufferable condescension.
There - right there - is your elitist attitude: that arrogance that I find utterly intolerable. That anyone who, God forbid, has any difficulty is some sort of mentally retarded chimp. As if they have made some grand contribution to the body of human knowledge.

That firmly erased, for many years, any inkling I may have had to learn the language. My opinion on the matter has softened but I am still hesitant about learning it - it would be far more practical (and enjoyable, for me) to learn a European or Asian language.

pretty*monster

Some, not all, but some Irish speakers come off as very elitist.
Some Irish speakers act like they're better than those who don't speak the language.
Some act like their love for the language legitimates a huge waste of tax payers money translating reams of stuff into Irish despite the fact that anyone who speaks Irish can speak english as well.
Some act like they are not aware that it is shockingly rude to carry on a conversationin Irish right in front of people who don't speak it fluently.

Irish is not and never will be my language. It was a rather unfortunate and injust event in history that put an end to the majority of Irish people learning Irish as their first language but unfortunate and unjust though it may be, it happened and it is unlikely to unhappen.

When I was a kid my parents read me bed time stories in English. The first boy who told me he loved me told me so in English. Every important event in my life has been brought to me through English.

English is my language, damaned if anyone is going to tell me otherwise. If anyone else wants to speak some other language, good luck to them, it's none of my business, but I'll have no truck with someone trying to make it my business either.

conor2007

im sick of people blaming the schools

conor2007

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

Mr. CooL ICE

conor2007 wrote: »

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

No. I am irish, yet I cannot speak irish. Saying that it is my language is (in my language) an oxymoron. Simple.


Take another country, e.g. Switzerland. Swiss people's language isn't simply swiss, just because they come from there. The country's state languages are french, italian, romansh and german. People in the french-speaking regions of switzerland's languages would obviously be french, and same would go for people in the other language regions. Since irish is mainly spoken in the gaeltacht areas of Ireland and english spoken everywhere else (and most of these people couldn't string an irish sentence together), how would that make these people's language irish? Makes no bloody sense...


I am not swiss and don't know many swiss people, so this is open for correction

conor2007

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Mr. CooL ICE

conor2007 wrote: »

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Was this directed at me? If so, I never said it was the official language of the gaeltacht

twinQuins

conor2007 wrote: »

official language of ireland - not the gaeltacht regions

Taken from the Constitution:

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

We live in a bilingual state. However, the stark reality is the majority of the populace speak English as their primary language.

EDIT:

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Care to elaborate?

pretty*monster

conor2007 wrote: »

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

In certain contexts, yeah, it would be pretty damn rude.

thelordofcheese

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Then where do you suppose the apathy and outright distain that many people seem to have for the irish language comes from?

Slutmonkey57b

conor2007 wrote: »

as said its your national language

conor2007 wrote: »

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

please debate that - i never said you have to like or speak it

Point disproved above - thank you Morkarleth.

Irish is not our "national language". It is one of two official languages.
They are not languages of equal status either. Irish may be the "first" official language but English is the only effective language for the vast majority of the population. What historical forces drove it to that point of dominance are at this point immaterial.

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

As am I.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Then where do you suppose the apathy and outright distain that many people seem to have for the irish language comes from?

Not from the schools but from the language. The country has had almost 100 years to reverse the decline of the language and has failed miserably. This despite shedloads of money and many changes in teaching and presentation.

conor2007 wrote: »

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

No. If you deliberately exclude people from a conversation you're rude.


Speaking for myself, I think the language is a joke. What is presented as Irish today is a fake mishmash of a language created for polictical reasons. It has as much relevence to us as mud huts. It's unnecessary, and while some people like it to be part of their heritage, they shouldn't have the power to force it on everyone else with their righteous "true irish" bullsh!t attitude, the worst and most heinous example of which is the forcing of Irish as an official language into the EU - thereby wasting not just OUR money but hundreds of millions of OTHER EU member state's taxes in propping it up.

bitemybanger

Id love to be able to have a full conversation in my naitive tounge and not just the bacic"hello, how are you, my name is, therse not a cloud in the sky" type of conversation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

Be that as it may, this is most people's first experience of the language. And when you're a kid, anything seen as a school subject has ground to make up. The main problem, though, is it is taught as a school suject. It is NOT taught as something to be passionate or even proud about it.

It always amazes me the way people who want to see a revival think that this isn't important. "Force it upon them and they shall learn". How is this supposed to work?

Now, to an earlier point: you described Irish as my national language, which may be true - I have no say in that matter - but that does not make it my personal language. I do have a say in that matter, and you, my friend, do not.

conor2007

me personally , if i speak irish and you want to know what im saying i will explain
obviously ill leave out personal details - but id help ya

but if you ever tried to call me rude for speaking anything id tell ya where to go

Neamhshuntasach

I speak Gaeilge and i have 3 mates who are into making an effort to learn it. I think it's great and respect anyone trying to learn our language. Two of them went to Trinity and got to know someone studying Gaeilge. Through knowing him and they got to know others in the class as did i when i went out on some of their student nights. And i have to say a lot of them where the elitist types that have been mentioned in this thread. They resented that he was trying to learn it and also the fact that i just spoke it in a normal Dublin accent (without any real dialect) as i learned it from one of my parents. I never went to a Gaelscoil or anything. I hate them types. A lot of them were just sent to a Gaelscoil by parents without any choice as they were just kids. They don't know what it's like to learn a language at an older age or how difficult and how much dedication is needed so they look down on those trying. Fair play to anyone who makes an effort at our language. All Gaelgoirs should be as welcoming as foreign people are when you try learn their language. I would have gave up on Spanish if it wasn't for the encouragement from the central Americans i knew.

conor2007

thats your teachers fault-not everyones view

i ha ve said - you dont have to like/speak or even ackknowledge it
still your national language tho

conor2007

fair play to ya - your trying - and me personally would help anyone to learn
as it is a language - im still learning also - as with english etc
dont get me started on trinity

Ron DMC

conor2007 wrote: »

dont get me started on trinity

Go on... I can't wait to hear this.

Kernel32

conor2007 wrote: »

im sick of people blaming the schools

I like most of us studied Irish all the way through to leaving cert. I also did French for my 5 years in secondary. Overall I was a good student in school, I excelled in maths and anything related and did better than most in other subjects. I struggled with Irish and French day in and day out. While I did well in the leaving cert, Irish and French dragged me down to what otherwise would have been results that were in the top percentages. I only studied French because I was told I needed a foreign language for university.

Personally I do blame how the languages were taught. I simply was and am not good at languages. But I wish I could have come away knowing a lot more, like hold a basic conversation in French or Irish which I cannot do. I don't blame the teachers though. They do play a part but in my case I liked my French teacher and she tried really hard to help me, whereas the Irish teacher put the pass students to the back of the class to struggle alone while the honours students sat up front with the teacher. The end result was similar in both cases, I still had trouble learning the languages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor2007 wrote: »

thats your teachers fault-not everyones view

i ha ve said - you dont have to like/speak or even ackknowledge it
still your national language tho

Nope wrong again - the school I went to was not the only one in whcih it was a compulsory subject. FACT - it IS a compulsory subject. FACT - a small percentage manage fluency in their school career. Generally speaking, there is more empasis on the compulsory element than the actual pride/passion element.

I know kids who speak fluent Irish for one reason: they like it. Most of the kids who HAVE to learn it, tend not to.

I've already commente on the national language / personal language differences.

sharkDawg

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!

conor2007

english maths are compulsorary
a language is also in most schools - so boo hoo really on that point

nesf

There was some confusion over my post detailing the status of English in the Charter thread. I've edited it to clarify things but, honestly, it's an Irish Language forum, of course English isn't meant to be used there. My point was that we're not going to be pricks and start handing out bans for honest mistakes by people not realising this. Just because we won't ban you for something, doesn't mean it's allowed or encouraged etc.

The forum is there for general conversation as Gaeilge (an AH in Irish essentially), if people want to ask a question in English about Irish then the Gaeilge forum is the place to do it.


The reason for a blanket ban on English is that the intent of the forum was to give people a place to converse freely in Irish. It is elitist in the sense that if you can't speak the language (or are like me and are more used to listening to it than typing it) then it's hard to interact on it, however; that's not that big a deal really when there's the alternative that is the Gaeilge forum. It's not a perfect solution but I can't think of a better one really. If you can't speak Irish, why would you want to post in an Irish only forum etc.

alexjk

i always find it odd that people refer to the language known today as irish as "our" language while just sweeping away the other languages (besides from english) that were spoken here until the recent past such as Fingalian and Yola. Why does one language get preference over those others as our "native" language?