clean-respectable - irish language debate

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:13PM #1

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-04-2008 05:15PM

conor2007 wrote: »

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

It's not eleitist - I don;t know any irish speakers, so I can;t comment. I do object ot people calling it my language because of my background in the same way people called Catholicism my religion.

And out before the lock!

helimachoptor · 01-04-2008 05:18PM

Frankly I am annoyed with myself that I dont know my own language better. I work abroad a good bit and even in Ireland I work with a lot of non native english speakers. The fact that most of them have at least 2 languages (their mother tongue & english) and most people in Ireland have English is shameful.

Now I know this is an effect of what happened when England invaded but I mean how long ago was that??

If people wish to speak Irish and have it survive they need to put in the effort. For me I try to speak it with my GF as often as possible as she is very good. I am slowly getting better to the point that when abroad and I talk to her and a couple of other friends I try to talk in Irish as much as possible, you should see the confused looks I get sometimes when i'm away

.

Later I will be sending my kids to a Gaelscoil.

Ron DMC · 01-04-2008 05:19PM

Although I love the language, I dislike the fact that many Irish speakers see themsleves as the Lord almighty just because they speak it. Having a certain language makes you no better than anyone else on this earth. Being an asshole about it makes you worse than others tbh.

People can choose themselves whether they speak a language or not, and it's fairly obvious that most Irish people freely choose to go about their daily business speaking English (as do I for a good 80-90% of the time).

Fair play to people that like speaking (incl me), but it's not up to us to force it down other people's throats.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:20PM

yes ,i have english also

this wont be locked-it is your language - how is catholicism your religion ? and find me one person who would say that

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:21PM

i would speak it daily - english and irish - so i would be in that category

i have never seen an irish person being elitist about it

Ron DMC · 01-04-2008 05:21PM

conor2007 wrote: »

it is your language

No it isn't. He said so himself.

i have never seen an irish person being elitist about it

You certainly haven't shown yourself to be Johnny Welcomemat to people who dislike the tongue (who are entitled to their opinions)

Unaton · 01-04-2008 05:23PM

I would love to learn it just for the learning sake. I mean, I speak German and Dutch but can only say a couple of phrases in Irish.

thelordofcheese · 01-04-2008 05:24PM

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

Although I love the language, I dislike the fact that many Irish speakers see themsleves as the Lord almighty just because they speak it. Having a certain language makes you no better than anyone else on this earth. Being an asshole about it makes you worse than others tbh.

People can choose themselves whether they speak a language or not, and it's fairly obvious that most Irish people freely choose to go about their daily business speaking English (as do I for a good 80-90% of the time).

Fair play to people that like speaking (incl me), but it's not up to us to force it down other people's throats.

There we go, thread over.
Ronny has put it perfectly, if i could thank you for that post i would.

We can all go home now.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:28PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

There we go, thread over.
Ronny has put it perfectly, if i could thank you for that post i would.

We can all go home now.

that doesnt mean we should loose our language
do french speak it daily - chinese - etc etc etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-04-2008 05:29PM

conor2007 wrote: »

yes ,i have english also

this wont be locked-it is your language - how is catholicism your religion ? and find me one person who would say that

Virtually everyone in my family a generation above me. I decide what is or isn't my believe and language, thank you. Irish is just a word in my passport, and the only reason it's there is because I can't get out of the country without it. There are far more interesting and attractive languages out there.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:29PM

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

No it isn't. He said so himself.

You certainly haven't shown yourself to be Johnny Welcomemat to people who dislike the tongue (who are entitled to their opinions)

i told desf - to pm me or to put it in the irish forum
and i would help him to the best of my ability

how is that not being ''welcome''/ welcoming

Dave! · 01-04-2008 05:30PM

I do not see it as elitist, and think that broad opinions should not be based on online discussions with an unrepresentative group.

If someone wants to give up on a language based on that experience, that's their perogative, but I think it is very silly of them.

Sin é.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:31PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Virtually everyone in my family a generation above me. I decide what is or isn't my believe and language, thank you. Irish is just a word in my passport, and the only reason it's there is because I can't get out of the country without it. There are far more interesting and attractive languages out there.

thats your opinion , not stopin gyou from learning-speaking or loving them language

they still wont be your language - the language of the country you were born

Adam · 01-04-2008 05:33PM

conor2007 wrote: »

people to air their views with no personal attacks

i honestly want to see how people see it as elitist and their other problems with irish

I've never had a problem with irish, or any of it's speakers, bar you with your attitude regarding the language. And that's all I'll say on the matter because there's already an entire thread of examples of said attitude.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:33PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

I do not see it as elitist, and think that broad opinions should not be based on online discussions with an unrepresentative group.

If someone wants to give up on a language based on that experience, that's their perogative, but I think it is very silly of them.

Sin é.

''like , omg , you should be like totally banned man , cos loike i speak fluently in several languages - and you speak filthy backwards irish - my god loike you are so elitist''

no seriously good point

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:34PM

irish is the langiuage of ireland
if you are irish is that not your language?

please debate that - i never said you have to like or speak it

Silent Partner · 01-04-2008 05:37PM

I'd love to be able to speak Irish fluently. I see it as our national language and of huge importance to our heritage and identity.
I worked in a place in the UK for 6 months with another Irish friend of mine. There we had two people from South Africa, two from Nigeria and two from Spain. They could all converse amongst themselves in their national tongues. The best myself and my friend could manage were a few words mingled with English.
I think the problem stems with how the language is thought in schools. It's thought at basic level in primary school and then in secondary school, they just assumed you had grasped the basics and tried more advanced stuff. As a result, I was completely lost (along with many of my fellow students).
I did German right through Junior & Leaving Cert. and I knew more German and was better equipped to carry a small conversation in German by the end of 2nd Year than I was after 8 years of primary school Irish teaching.

School students see the language as too much hard work and unfortunately many of them do view it as a waste of time. Along with Maths (eg. Algebra, Trig etc.), they figure that they'll never use it in the "real" world. What I'd love to see is Irish being thought as a living language in schools and linking it in with our history and heritage (eg. Celtic Mythology, the struggle for Irish independence). I think the Government should be doing as much as possible to promote the language and turn it into a real every day language rather than a novelty.

Hrududu · 01-04-2008 05:38PM

I was never very good at Irish in school. I had enough to get through the LC and that was about it. When I left school I was glad that I didnt have to do it anymore. Just like I was glad that I didnt have to do some other subjects anymore either. I'm too lazy to pick it up again now. And it would be a waste if I did. I don't know a single person that speaks it, so all that learning would go nowhere.

As for it being my language, well my native tongue is English, it was what I grew up speaking. I don't see how something I learned in school could be considered "my language" over the language I think in.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 05:40PM

as said its your national language

thelordofcheese · 01-04-2008 05:48PM

conor2007 wrote: »

that doesnt mean we should loose our language
do french speak it daily - chinese - etc etc etc

I very much doubt the french speak it daily.

anyway, we've already lost it, it's not the primary language of the country, outside of a relatively small number of enthuaists it's all but dead but that's neither here nor there.
You started the thread to see why people "see it as elitist" and i think Ronny summed it up perfectly.

NoQuarter · 01-04-2008 06:09PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

anyway, we've already lost it, it's not the primary language of the country,

it might not be the most widely spoken language, but it is the first official language of ireland. English is the second official language or ireland.

thelordofcheese · 01-04-2008 06:28PM

The 'official' language of ireland and the primary language are two different things.
Officially, we speak Irish first, then English, but the reality is very different. Not that it's news to anyone really, but i'm just clarifying what i meant.

SantryRed · 01-04-2008 06:29PM

Being forced to learn it in school isn't right in my opinion.

Dudess · 01-04-2008 06:29PM

I'm glad Irish is taught at school but I don't think it should be mandatory at leaving cert level - then again I don't think any subject should be mandatory at leaving cert level. From junior infants to junior cert, definitely. That's enough of a window to figure out what you're good at/bad at, what you like/dislike (well ideally anyway). I find the leaving cert system very flawed, but that's a different argument.

However I found leaving cert Irish unbearably boring and tedious. Up to junior cert I never got less than a B+. It became such a chore at leaving cert level. It went from being a subject I liked (didn't love but didn't mind it either) to a subject I utterly loathed. I found most of the leaving cert boring, but Irish in particular. Now I'm an example of someone who would never, EVER go near Irish again. And I haven't. It's 12 years since I did the leaving and I can barely string a sentence together as gaeilge. I blame that poxy leaving cert Irish course.

Gummy Panda · 01-04-2008 06:43PM

Don't speak and don't care to learn tbh. I blame the terrible teachers who taught it during my secondary school years.

Also Polish interests me. Could come in handy in future ireland

ergonomics · 01-04-2008 06:51PM

Can't understand why people think those who speak Irish are 'elitist'.

I am fluent in Irish, I study it in college and I use it in my working life. Rather than being elitist, I cringe when people say 'Oh WOW! You're fluent in Irish!!!' (which I get a lot). I've also had people introduce me as 'This is Aoife, she's fluent in Irish'. It's not a big deal, it's just part of my heritage. You don't introduce people as being fluent in French. I rarely speak it in public though because I find that when I do people often give me strange looks. I really resent that.

I think the language could be better taught in schools. I hated it in primary but when I went on to secondary I went to an all-Irish school (don't know why) and became immersed in the language. As a result, I fell in love. If it was taught better I think the opinion of it would drastically changed.

twinQuins · 01-04-2008 07:11PM

I still remember my old teacher. My elder brother was taught under him and apparently the man had a history of aggression (threw a table across a room once). I moved down to Ordinary Level for the LC and...his attitude was unbearable. He treated the class like a collective of idiots; as if we were incapable of grasping even the simplest concepts.
He would deign to talk to us like a band of infants. He would bang his head against the wall or walk off for a few moments before coming back with that insufferable condescension.
There - right there - is your elitist attitude: that arrogance that I find utterly intolerable. That anyone who, God forbid, has any difficulty is some sort of mentally retarded chimp. As if they have made some grand contribution to the body of human knowledge.

That firmly erased, for many years, any inkling I may have had to learn the language. My opinion on the matter has softened but I am still hesitant about learning it - it would be far more practical (and enjoyable, for me) to learn a European or Asian language.

pretty*monster · 01-04-2008 07:25PM

Some, not all, but some Irish speakers come off as very elitist.
Some Irish speakers act like they're better than those who don't speak the language.
Some act like their love for the language legitimates a huge waste of tax payers money translating reams of stuff into Irish despite the fact that anyone who speaks Irish can speak english as well.
Some act like they are not aware that it is shockingly rude to carry on a conversationin Irish right in front of people who don't speak it fluently.

Irish is not and never will be my language. It was a rather unfortunate and injust event in history that put an end to the majority of Irish people learning Irish as their first language but unfortunate and unjust though it may be, it happened and it is unlikely to unhappen.

When I was a kid my parents read me bed time stories in English. The first boy who told me he loved me told me so in English. Every important event in my life has been brought to me through English.

English is my language, damaned if anyone is going to tell me otherwise. If anyone else wants to speak some other language, good luck to them, it's none of my business, but I'll have no truck with someone trying to make it my business either.

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 07:26PM

im sick of people blaming the schools

conor2007 · 01-04-2008 07:27PM

ffs , if i speak french in front of you am i rude?

clean-respectable - irish language debate

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