nutrition x products in Ben Dunne Gym's

justsomebloke · 31-03-2008 10:32AM #1

At the end of my training session in Northwood yesterday I just happened to be looking at the price of RAM and it seem it is only €25 which is by far the cheapest I have seen it. Now I didn't price check the rest of the product range but I think there may also be saving on the rest as well.

rubadub · 31-03-2008 11:02AM

I am surprised no supermarket has jumped on the bandwagon and gotten "own brand" protein in. There might be some marketing issues with other supps, due to the Joe Duffy brigade shopping there, but protein is food, many already sell that caselin (sp?) stuff.

I see music city in dun laoghaire has become an elverys.

lindak · 31-03-2008 11:20AM

I also get my Slender Pro in Ben dunnes for €25 its a great price !

Hanley · 31-03-2008 12:59PM

It's a terrible price for supplement vendors.

The gyms can absorb the costs of offering supplements a cost or below cost price safe in the knowledge that it's not going to have a negative impact on their bottom line. By supporting this practice all you do is drive potentially the likes of pronutrition and irishlifting out of business.

Degsy · 31-03-2008 01:02PM

Hanley wrote: »

It's a terrible price for supplement vendors.

The gyms can absorb the costs of offering supplements a cost or below cost price safe in the knowledge that it's not going to have a negative impact on their bottom line. By supporting this practice all you do is drive potentially the likes of pronutrition and irishlifting out of business.

I dont by supps from gyms but people are gonna go with whatever is cheapest.Its an unfortunate fact of business if you cant compete you'll go under.

Hanley · 31-03-2008 01:10PM

Degsy wrote: »

I dont by supps from gyms but people are gonna go with whatever is cheapest.Its an unfortunate fact of business if you cant compete you'll go under.

Ah yeah I know there's nothing illegal about it, but I don't nccessarily think it's good business practice for the consumer. They're selling Nutrition X supplements cheaper than Nutrition X can sell them for on their own site like!!

How can you compete with cost or below cost price supplements from a gym when your primary function as a supplement shop is generating cash and profits from the sale of the same goods?

I don't think this is even a question of business efficiency since it's simply not possible for supplement shops to compete on cost. I don't think people place a high enough value on customer service to forgo the extra cash it would "cost".

siochain · 31-03-2008 01:29PM

Ben dunne is making a nice profit at that price and is no where near selling at cost.

Hanley · 31-03-2008 01:32PM

siochain wrote: »

Ben dunne is making a nice profit at that price and is no where near selling at cost.

Do you know how much he is being charged?
Do you know how much the other vendors are being charged?

Does carrying the supplements increase his overheads in any significant way??

Roper · 31-03-2008 01:51PM

I have to agree with Hanley here, the real world dictates that people are going to go where it's cheapest. I just think that sometimes people have to see the extra cost to them- the fact that if practices like this continue, large places will be the only places you will get supplements because nobody else will be able to compete. That, to you the consumer, is a cost too.

justsomebloke · 31-03-2008 02:14PM

Hanley wrote: »

Ah yeah I know there's nothing illegal about it, but I don't nccessarily think it's good business practice for the consumer. They're selling Nutrition X supplements cheaper than Nutrition X can sell them for on their own site like!!

How can you compete with cost or below cost price supplements from a gym when your primary function as a supplement shop is generating cash and profits from the sale of the same goods?

I don't think this is even a question of business efficiency since it's simply not possible for supplement shops to compete on cost. I don't think people place a high enough value on customer service to forgo the extra cash it would "cost".

truthfully though if you shop if tesco you are supporting the same practice just on different types of product.

That said I have know this information for about 6 months and hadn't posted it, however I know cost is a factor to some people so I decided to share the information in the end

siochain · 31-03-2008 02:30PM

Hanley wrote: »

Do you know how much he is being charged?
Do you know how much the other vendors are being charged?

Does carrying the supplements increase his overheads in any significant way??

Do you know how much he is being charged? No
Do you know how much the other vendors are being charged? Yes
Does carrying the supplements increase his overheads in any significant way?? No

Degsy · 31-03-2008 03:21PM

Well in fairness the "smaller" shops are making a profit.They wouldnt be trading otherwise.Its all about economy of scale,comepetition and purchasing power.If the net result is that it costs less to the consumer than competition is a good thing.If smaller shops want to compete then they cam slightly alter thier profit margins and offset that with increased sales volume.I spend x-amount per year on supps and i'll allways go for the cheapest price for the best value.

siochain · 31-03-2008 04:16PM

Your dead right Deasy,

That’s why most people don't do their weekly food shopping in the local corner SPAR shop and go to Dunnes, Tesco, Aldi etc.

Look what Ryan air did to the airline industry. Hell look what the internet did in general for bringing down travel costs. Do I sill go to my local high street travel shop? no chance. Competition is best for the consumer.

If anyone says they wouldn't buy their same brand supps off Tesco, Ben Dunne etc at cheaper price than their local supps shop, them have too much money to waste.

For me it’s the best business practice for the consumer. I don’t think it’s a case of nutrition x can’t sell it at a cheaper price its just they don’t.

Hanley · 31-03-2008 04:23PM

Degsy wrote: »

Well in fairness the "smaller" shops are making a profit.They wouldnt be trading otherwise.Its all about economy of scale,comepetition and purchasing power.If the net result is that it costs less to the consumer than competition is a good thing.If smaller shops want to compete then they cam slightly alter thier profit margins and offset that with increased sales volume.I spend x-amount per year on supps and i'll allways go for the cheapest price for the best value.

Of course they're making a profit... Reducing their price doesn't mean they'll sell more units and maintain the same profit level tho. Say they sell 2,000 units of Big Whey a year at 55 euro, that's 110k. If they only dropped their price to 50 euro they'd have to sell an extra 200 tubs to come out with the same profit levels. You're talking about a 10% increase in sales to achieve this and on top of that a 5 or 10% growth in sales over a year doesn't actually mean their profit will grow 5-10% compared to the previous period. It might only go up 2.5-5%. Finally taking into account current market conditions and the global increase in whey which the gym chains can absorb, but the small vendors cannot, their is the potential for a lot of damage to the market.

If the larger players (ie Ben Dunne) drives the small independent shops out of business by aggressively under cutting them then it is not good for the market. It's just like the loss leader concept often used by large established corporations when challenging smaller incumbents in a new or existing market. They're big so they can absorb the costs, they drive the small independents out of the market, once they have a monopoly they bring their prices up, and with no-one to challenge them the consumer suffers.

Not saying that this is what's happening here, but the potential is that 2 or 3 years down the road we're all worse off for it.

rubadub · 31-03-2008 04:43PM

siochain wrote: »

Do you know how much he is being charged? No
Do you know how much the other vendors are being charged? Yes
Does carrying the supplements increase his overheads in any significant way?? No

How do you know what the other vendors are being charged? You and others know guys in NutritionX right? maybe ask them what the story is.

As I said earlier I am surprised Dunnes or Tescos do not simply develop their own brand. And this might be what they are doing in a way, buying massive amounts from NX. They could be giving them no real option though, saying they have another place if they are not cheap enough.

People already buy their glucose/dextrose in supermarkets rather than supplement stores or chemists. Some buy other protein i.e. chicken in supermarkets rather than a local butcher. Some will still pick the butcher for reasons you already stated, AND for quality reasons. Problem here is you are buying an off the shelf item, so the quality reasoning is sort of lost. But you have no info/saleperson. Like going to Oddbins, or Molloys the guy at the counter knows his beers, might give a taster etc.

I am very surprised the stuff is not in the bigger supermarkets yet. The situation has happened with many other products, the original sellers just have to find another thing to sell, unfortunately there is nothing much they can do. It is like farmers looking for money to grow sugar beet while it can be imported for a fraction of the price, you cannot compete so move on and grow/sell something that is profitable.

He could well be below cost selling, if he is perhaps it is a loss leader absorbed by membership fees. I do not know if you have to be a member to buy the stuff. It would be like the console model in reverse. Sell a playstation or printer cheap and make it back on the games/ink. Charge a high membership and keep people coming back to get discounted supps.

Hanley · 31-03-2008 04:46PM

siochain wrote: »

Your dead right Deasy,

That’s why most people don't do their weekly food shopping in the local corner SPAR shop and go to Dunnes, Tesco, Aldi etc.

Look what Ryan air did to the airline industry. Hell look what the internet did in general for bringing down travel costs. Do I sill go to my local high street travel shop? no chance. Competition is best for the consumer.

If anyone says they wouldn't buy their same brand supps off Tesco, Ben Dunne etc at cheaper price than their local supps shop, them have too much money to waste.

For me it’s the best business practice for the consumer. I don’t think it’s a case of nutrition x can’t sell it at a cheaper price its just they don’t.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make with Spar -v- Tesco but it has no relevance to the current one. Spar is a convenience store. it exists so you can pick up bits and bobs easily. It's not trying to steal market share from, or replace, Tesco. They both serve a purpose in the market.

What Ryanair did in the airline industry was to take a different strategic direction to the incumbents. They were ruthlessly low cost across the entire business and in doing so they gained a massive market share. Willie Walsh saw what was happening and tried to cash in with Aer Lingus, they failed because they're not a low cost provider. Never have been, never will. They tried to embark on a strategy that was doomed to failure from the beginning. Now with Mannion on board they're starting to come back around to being the best cost provider that they always had been. In doing this both co's should continue to prosper since while competing in the same market they're not strictly competing against each other.

My point being, Ryanair aren't going to drive Aer Lingus out of the market because it's not just as simple as "get on a plane and fly". There's alot of other factors that people consider. I would argue that when it comes to buying supplements people don't think this deeply and will just as happily but off Ben Dunne because as of now he's cheaper. Without realising that by supporting him and getting rid of the competition they create a situation where they're locked in to only one vendor and leave themselves open to indiscriminate price hikes.

Gym memberships not selling as well as they used to? Increase the price on supplements.
Overheads go up? Increase the price on supplements.
Feeling greedy? Increase the price on supplements.

Sure who's gonna fight back?

rubadub · 31-03-2008 04:55PM

Hanley wrote: »

Sure who's gonna fight back?

Not being smart, but the other supermarkets would, if they saw that potential, and the likes of bulkpowders and myprotein. Same thing has happened with beers, I live next to a tesco and O'Briens and both do well as ever. Though O'Briens are such a big chain that there have in effect alomst supermarket buying power, But that is my point, other big players will step in.

Degsy · 31-03-2008 06:04PM

rubadub wrote: »

Not being smart, but the other supermarkets would, if they saw that potential, and the likes of bulkpowders and myprotein. Same thing has happened with beers, I live next to a tesco and O'Briens and both do well as ever. Though O'Briens are such a big chain that there have in effect alomst supermarket buying power, But that is my point, other big players will step in.

Any off license can afford to sell reasonable quality beers at a quid a can without going out of business bacause there are enough (!) people willing to buy budweiser and crap like that at 2.50 a can.Any supplement shop can drop the price of the mid-range stuff quite happily and there's still people paying top dollar for maximuscle for reasons best known to themselves.I dont know what the profit margin of supplements is but 100% is a common retail figure.

siochain · 31-03-2008 06:25PM

Hanley wrote: »

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make with Spar -v- Tesco but it has no relevance to the current one. Spar is a convenience store. it exists so you can pick up bits and bobs easily. It's not trying to steal market share from, or replace, Tesco. They both serve a purpose in the market.

Simply used to compare small scale V's large scale. They can't replace tesco but they are competing for market share.

Hanley wrote: »

What Ryanair did in the airline industry was to take a different strategic direction to the incumbents. They were ruthlessly low cost across the entire business and in doing so they gained a massive market share. Willie Walsh saw what was happening and tried to cash in with Aer Lingus, they failed because they're not a low cost provider. Never have been, never will. They tried to embark on a strategy that was doomed to failure from the beginning. Now with Mannion on board they're starting to come back around to being the best cost provider that they always had been. In doing this both co's should continue to prosper since while competing in the same market they're not strictly competing against each other.

Ryan air was used to point out what competion can do for a market and how the consumer benefits. They are in direct competition.

Hanley wrote: »

My point being, Ryanair aren't going to drive Aer Lingus out of the market because it's not just as simple as "get on a plane and fly". There's alot of other factors that people consider. I would argue that when it comes to buying supplements people don't think this deeply and will just as happily but off Ben Dunne because as of now he's cheaper. Without realising that by supporting him and getting rid of the competition they create a situation where they're locked in to only one vendor and leave themselves open to indiscriminate price hikes.

I'm missing your point on this one. A lot of people predicted that Ryan air would drive aerlingus out of business and bump up the prices, it never happened. Consumers only think about how deep there pockets are and will usually shop for the best value

Hanley wrote: »

Gym memberships not selling as well as they used to? Increase the price on supplements.
Overheads go up? Increase the price on supplements.
Feeling greedy? Increase the price on supplements.

Thats a factor in all business

Leon11 · 31-03-2008 06:37PM

we can debate the wrongs and rights of ben dunne's gyms selling supps at a lower cost than shops but lets be honest, price matters.

Does a person who knows their stuff about supps gain any extra value from having to pay an extra €5 a tub? no.

Does a person who knows little and wants to be given some information about the supp and other possible alternatives see value in paying €5 extra? I would argue yes.

The supplement shops ain't gonna go out of business anytime soon, at the moment how many gyms is there in the country? 300-400 could be less could be more, is 3-4 Ben Dunne gyms selling cheaper products gonna affect them? prob not unless as rubadub has said a major retailer with multiple locations was to start undercutting.

By the way this has always been the way Ben Dunne has operated in business, Dunnes Stores ruined quite a few logistics companies in the past by locking them into contracts that does them no good financially.

Hanley · 31-03-2008 11:31PM

rubadub wrote: »

Not being smart, but the other supermarkets would, if they saw that potential, and the likes of bulkpowders and myprotein. Same thing has happened with beers, I live next to a tesco and O'Briens and both do well as ever. Though O'Briens are such a big chain that there have in effect alomst supermarket buying power, But that is my point, other big players will step in.

I was specifically talking about gym's under cutting vendors really. And in the Dublin context that doesn't leave much room for competition. I don't know if any figures have been done, but I would imagine Ben Dunne's 3 gyms make up a significant proportion of the Dublin gym populous. I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the region of 40-50%, maybe a big less. So it's not like there's THAT much competition. I'd almost consider it a moot point tho because any competition between gyms would drive the price even lower than it is already to a level unsustainable for the supplement vendor who doesn't have other income streams to cover his or her overheads.

I am surprised that Tesco or other major brand supermarkets don't carry supplements tho. Seems like a big gap to be exploited. Superquinn in Blanchardstown carry a very limited range of Maximuscle products tho!!

Hanley · 31-03-2008 11:47PM

siochain wrote: »

Simply used to compare small scale V's large scale. They can't replace tesco but they are competing for market share.

You're comparing a store where people stop in to pick up one or two things to a place where people pick up 50+ items. The fact they're picking up only one or two things means they'll be less sensitive to the relative price of the goods. If it was an "either/or" case then Spar and the likes would go out of business very quickly and Tesco would go back to having local stores.

This isn't the case for supplement stores. People don't buy a huge amount of items at any one time. They'd generally buy the same quantity from the gym or from the supplement vendor. The net result? Direct price comparison and a loss of business for the more "expensive" one. Just like doing your entire weekly shop in Spar.

I'm missing your point on this one. A lot of people predicted that Ryan air would drive aerlingus out of business and bump up the prices, it never happened. Consumers only think about how deep there pockets are and will usually shop for the best value

There is actually evidence of Ryanair increasing or decreasing their prices based on the competitive forces in the market. I helped to compile a small study on this earlier in the year as part of a college assignment, and the European Commission have also examined it. Here's a direct quote from a press release RE: The Aer Lingus/Ryanair merger;

"Ryanair's prices vary depending on the competition present in the market. It has both increased and lowered average fares in recent years depending on competitive conditions and costs. As set out in detail in the Commission's prohibition decision, Ryanair's fares are driven not only by the level of customer demand but also by the competition it meets on any given flight"

Basically, more competition = lower prices. Markets only work when there's competition. A competition where one side drives out the other is no longer a market where the price is the true value of the service or good on offer, it merely becomes the amount the controlling firm decide they want.

The situation I described with the gym's -vs- the supplement stores isn't so unrealistic now is it?

I'm not saying competition is bad, only a fool would say that. What I am saying is that using huge amounts of capital to absorb losses and drive competitors out of the market to ensure larger future profits at the expense of the consumer IS bad.

cavanmaniac · 15-01-2009 05:49PM

I notice Northwood haven't had new stocks of Pro X in for about a month and a half now, and are now stocking Maximuscle at pretty much full price. The only Nut X stuff seems to be whatever they had in stock from before.

Staff keep saying they're "expecting more stuff in soon" when you ask about Nutrition X but it seems to me they're possibly making moreprofit on the very costly Maximuscle products and have decided to phase out Nutrition X.

Anyone seeing a similar pattern in other Ben Dunne gyms?

yomchi · 15-01-2009 07:04PM

Hanley wrote: »

It's a terrible price for supplement vendors.

The gyms can absorb the costs of offering supplements a cost or below cost price safe in the knowledge that it's not going to have a negative impact on their bottom line. By supporting this practice all you do is drive potentially the likes of pronutrition and irishlifting out of business.

Took the words out of my mouth. Being in the supp business in the past I can firmly say that big gyms selling cheap supps is a pain in the balls. It's something suppliers should stamp out for the sake of the over all business.

madmik · 15-01-2009 10:59PM

aldi have already started selling whey in big tubs

i saw it there last week although its probably just a promotional item that wont last

also tesco and spar are in direct competition with each other

spars are getting larger and carrying a wider range of specialist counters and products

tesco are also opening smaller stores in busy areas where there is a lot of traffic

its quite obvious that tesco arent just opening superstores on the outskirts of towns anymore

theyre opening little tesco xtra stores and petrol stations to muscle in on the convenience market

corribdude · 15-01-2009 11:18PM

Its a non issue imo when it comes to buying the exact same supplement for a cheaper price in a gym as opposed to a supp shop. Businesses aren't charities and nobody is under any moral obligations to support them.

dave80 · 16-01-2009 11:08AM

corribdude wrote: »

Its a non issue imo when it comes to buying the exact same supplement for a cheaper price in a gym as opposed to a supp shop. Businesses aren't charities and nobody is under any moral obligations to support them.

+1

its like saying iam not going to buy my 'corn flakes' in tesco but buy them in the local shop at a higher price

colmconn · 16-01-2009 01:50PM

Joe the Santa wrote: »

At the end of my training session in Northwood yesterday I just happened to be looking at the price of RAM and it seem it is only €25 which is by far the cheapest I have seen it. Now I didn't price check the rest of the product range but I think there may also be saving on the rest as well.

these guys have it for €23.99.

http://www.fitnesssupplementsvitamins.ie/Post-Training-Nutrition-X-RAM-Recovery-Matrix.aspx

Hanley · 16-01-2009 05:25PM

cavanmaniac wrote: »

I notice Northwood haven't had new stocks of Pro X in for about a month and a half now, and are now stocking Maximuscle at pretty much full price. The only Nut X stuff seems to be whatever they had in stock from before.

Staff keep saying they're "expecting more stuff in soon" when you ask about Nutrition X but it seems to me they're possibly making moreprofit on the very costly Maximuscle products and have decided to phase out Nutrition X.

Anyone seeing a similar pattern in other Ben Dunne gyms?

Hanley wrote: »

Gym memberships not selling as well as they used to? Increase the price on supplements.
Overheads go up? Increase the price on supplements.
Feeling greedy? Increase the price on supplements.

Sure who's gonna fight back?

Lolz... telling the future since March 2008!!

Not exactly what I said might happen, but it looks like they're trying to boost their profit figure thru supplement sales.... Imagine how bad it would be with a monopoly.

Of course there is the possibility that they've let the NutX stuff run low and brought in the MM stuff for the new year to sell to the people who don't know better.

manhattan · 16-01-2009 05:33PM

They have a good nutrition shop in Westpoint.
Nutrition x products are at great prices ram at 25 euro. I also see where they are selling Massacra at 2 for 80 euro.
They also do USN and Maximuscle.

cavanmaniac · 19-01-2009 12:42PM

Note: They have the Pro X back in stock in Northwood now.

nutrition x products in Ben Dunne Gym's

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