do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

Pompey Magnus · 17-03-2008 04:35PM

This is historically illiterate. Christianity, prior to being hijacked by Constantine, had already grown way beyond the numbers or influence ever achieved by any of the fringe cults. This growth occurred primarily under persecution. This fact led one early church father, Tertullian, to make the famous comment that semen est sanguis Christianorum - or "the blood of Christians is seed".

Is this attack on Constantine not a case of biting the hand that fed you (also can I assume you don't believe God gave him a heavenly sign at the battle of the Milvian bridge)? Christianity was pretty much a mess of ideas and conflicting teachings before he brought some order to it. Without his help in making Christianity the official religion of Rome the Orthodoxy would not have had the chance to crush and utterly destroy the gnostics and heretical teachings which plagued the faith.

PDN · 17-03-2008 05:12PM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Is this attack on Constantine not a case of biting the hand that fed you (also can I assume you don't believe God gave him a heavenly sign at the battle of the Milvian bridge)? Christianity was pretty much a mess of ideas and conflicting teachings before he brought some order to it. Without his help in making Christianity the official religion of Rome the Orthodoxy would not have had the chance to crush and utterly destroy the gnostics and heretical teachings which plagued the faith.

Constantine's hand would only be the hand that fed Christianity in the sense that a pimp feeds a prostitute. Constantine's pretended conversion, in my opinion, was the greatest disaster to befall the early Church. It turned a vibrant yet persecuted faith into a pampered persecuting power structure.

The 'heretical' teachings which were crushed (but not destroyed) by the subsequent State/Church tyranny included most of the characteristics of true Christianity as practiced by millions today. The gnostics merit a lot of attention today because their beliefs tend to be sensationally exotic and because we have a good number of surviving gnostic texts (which rather contradicts the Da Vinci Code myth of a monolithic Church hierarchy efficiently and ruthlessly destroying every trace of dissident belief). Gnosticism never threatened to become a mass movement as such because it's very essence was that of possessing a hidden knowledge that was only accessible to a small favoured elite.

Gnosticism exists today in the form of exotic cults and some of the wackier New Age beliefs. Christianity no more needs a Constantine to protect it from such oddities today than it did 1650 years ago.

BrianCalgary · 17-03-2008 08:31PM

robindch wrote: »

Some posters would disagree, saying that their version of christianity is the right one and that all others are false (meaning they're not christian). But there are plenty of other examples around the place of more distantly (un)related religions doing the same thing. That was one that happened here in Dublin not so long ago.Fair enough. And I was trying help out timk1 who may not have known about the soupers

Pray, continue!

I think that there are groups who probably do practice food for faith. I have been told by friends who have witnessed it happening in Africa in particular. Those same people who witnessed it being done by Christian groups have also witnessed it being done by political groups; vote for me and I'll give you food.

It is a horrible practice and one which I can not support.

God asks for your heart, proclaiming Christ in order to recieve food, can not really be a heart issue.

lostexpectation · 20-03-2008 11:21PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is a horrible practice and one which I can not support.

God asks for your heart, proclaiming Christ in order to recieve food, can not really be a heart issue.

don't thinking any grouping can give aid without there being some motivation of conversion.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 05:43PM

lostexpectation wrote: »

missionaries job is to spread the fath first feed people second.

Agreed.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 05:57PM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Ah to be back in the good old days when it was the sinners who were persecuted and burned at the stake by the Godly. Of course the poor Christians today are suffering even worse persecution at the hands of the heathens.

It is a bit rich for a Christian to criticise the Church use of power. The existance of Christianity today is down chiefly to its close relationship with earthly power and wealth. Had Christianity not taken control of the Roman Empire then it would not be alive today, it would have died out like any number of fringe cults have. You may delude yourself into thinking it succeeded because it was the most moral religion (its not!), in reality it succeeded because Emperor Constantine cleverly saw in it a perfect religion to consolidate his position as Emperor and unite the Empire. Christianity without power, wealth and force is nothing.

It is funny that Christians are only starting to scoff at the earthly persuit of power once they have begun to lose it.

PDN said most of what I wanted to say, but let me deal with this:
The religion Constantine enforced was corrupt and went on to be increasingly so. It persecuted any opposed to it, including - indeed, especially - those who held to New Testament teaching and practice. The Reformation brought some relief, in that God not only permitted the gospel to flourish but gave it some protection against the exterminators.

The gospel has spread to all parts of the world, and in many parts the Christians are hunted and harried - by Muslims, Hindus, Communists. They have no power, wealth or force and indeed they are nothing in the world's sight. But they are precious in God's sight - just as they were in the Dark Ages, in the persecutions of the Roman Empire, in the Apostolic times and the Old Testament age:
Hebrews 11:Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Tigger · 22-03-2008 06:49PM

if a person didnb't know about god but was good would he go to heaven
like say a peasant farmer in china that helped other people all his life

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 07:23PM

rbd wrote: »

if a person didnb't know about god but was good would he go to heaven
like say a peasant farmer in china that helped other people all his life

No, for our 'good' is not good enough - it masks a rebel heart against God. That's why Christ had to atone for His people's sins.

Tigger · 22-03-2008 07:33PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, for our 'good' is not good enough - it masks a rebel heart against God. That's why Christ had to atone for His people's sins.

but if noone ever told him
and did christ not give him a clean slate

Doctor DooM · 22-03-2008 07:58PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, for our 'good' is not good enough - it masks a rebel heart against God. That's why Christ had to atone for His people's sins.

You honestly believe a completely honest and good and giving person will not go to heaven because no one ever encountered him to tell him about the one true God?

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 08:13PM

As far as i can see, it is only the hardcore evangelicals who get in (so they say anyway!). Can you imagine an eternity with them? :eek:

Fanny Cradock · 22-03-2008 08:33PM

rbd wrote: »

but if noone ever told him
and did christ not give him a clean slate

I'd have to disagree with Wolfsbane for a number of reasons - chief of which is that matters of salvation are not decided by us.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 08:35PM

rbd wrote: »

but if noone ever told him
and did christ not give him a clean slate

He had the witness of creation and conscience to cause him to seek after God. He did not or he would have found Him. He lives and dies with a rebel heart.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 08:38PM

SDooM wrote: »

You honestly believe a completely honest and good and giving person will not go to heaven because no one ever encountered him to tell him about the one true God?

As I said, our idea of good is not God's.
Romans 2:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 08:42PM

daithifleming wrote: »

As far as i can see, it is only the hardcore evangelicals who get in (so they say anyway!). Can you imagine an eternity with them? :eek:

I'm looking forward to spending eternity with the saints.:):):)

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 08:45PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm looking forward to spending eternity with the saints.:):):)

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

You Christians and your love of blood... :pac::pac::pac:

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 08:48PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with Wolfsbane for a number of reasons - chief of which is that matters of salvation are not decided by us.

Indeed they are not. They are decided by God alone. What does He say about who gets to heaven?

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

wolfsbane · 22-03-2008 08:57PM

daithifleming wrote: »

You Christians and your love of blood... :pac::pac::pac:

Just His blood, that is, His atoning death:
1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

PDN · 22-03-2008 09:16PM

daithifleming wrote: »

As far as i can see, it is only the hardcore evangelicals who get in (so they say anyway!). Can you imagine an eternity with them? :eek:

Well, you seem quite drawn to this forum where you interact with us. Or is it a bit like driving past a car crash when you know you don't want to see the carnage but you can't help looking anyway?

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 09:20PM

PDN wrote: »

Well, you seem quite drawn to this forum where you interact with us. Or is it a bit like driving past a car crash when you know you don't want to see the carnage but you can't help looking anyway?

Spot on, sir. Do i have to call you sir now?

PDN · 22-03-2008 09:23PM

daithifleming wrote: »

Spot on, sir. Do i have to call you sir now?

No, the usual titles such as 'bigot' will do nicely.

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 09:31PM

PDN wrote: »

No, the usual titles such as 'bigot' will do nicely.

Yes Mr.Bigot, that'll do nicely. :pac::pac::pac:

PDN · 22-03-2008 09:43PM

daithifleming wrote: »

Yes Mr.Bigot, that'll do nicely. :pac::pac::pac:

I've been called much worse.

Ekancone · 22-03-2008 09:44PM

PDN wrote: »

I've been called much worse.

An atheist?

do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

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