The party's over

Degsy · 11-03-2008 04:21PM

Dashticle wrote: »

Get a grip. Just because someone sells weed or pills does not mean they are going to deal heroin. Some very few do, not all. Bottom line is heroin is generally seen as a dirty, underground drug. People who are a bit miffed that they can't get a few pills for a saturday night or a 50bag of weed aren't going to go shooting up gear because of it.

Did this actually happen to you or something? I've never heard of anyone smoking heroin to come down off pills, it sounds pretty weird to me.

Not to me personally.I was in my 20's in the 1990's and it happend to alot of people i know.Here's some studies
http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/handy.htm
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=365363
http://jpubhealth.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/28/2/96.pdf

Dashticle · 11-03-2008 04:36PM

Those studies seem to be describing strong opiates like heroin as a come down tool, yes. Very surprising. I still don't think that hating the come down off a pill or speed or whatever would convince anyone to smoke or shoot heroin, being aware of that drug's reputation and potential for destroying lives.

Degsy · 11-03-2008 05:17PM

Dashticle wrote: »

Those studies seem to be describing strong opiates like heroin as a come down tool, yes. Very surprising. I still don't think that hating the come down off a pill or speed or whatever would convince anyone to smoke or shoot heroin, being aware of that drug's reputation and potential for destroying lives.

Its all a matter of perspective.When you're in primary school you're told that all drugs will destroy your life,you're told that drink will destroy your liver and cigarettes will give you lung cancer.When you start to experience these things for yourself you see it aint neccesaarily so.So if the teachers were wrong about having a drink,you figure they're wronga bout having a spliff,then they're wrong about taking pills,doing coke or what have you.You can do all these drugs and you're fine,you're not addicted.You're having trouble sleeping after two days solid caning the pills and coke,somebody hands around a bit of Brown,its okay,you're not injecting it,you're not a junkie,your mates are doing it,it feels great,where's the addiction,the open sores and missing teeth from the ads?Bollocks,you say,the teachers and the government and the straight joes dont know what they're talking about.Smoke a bit at weekends,a little bit more each time(its like that).This can go on for months untill one day you wake up with cramps in your legs,your skin is hot and cold,your guts are retching,you NEED to get some stuff into you.YOu c an smoke it but its not economical anymore,you get twiice the goof from half the gear if you shoot it up.Its okay,nobody can see you doing it,you're getting on with your life,its your little secret.Nothing wrong with injecting,as long as you use clean needles,nothing to worry about....see?

JC 2K3 · 11-03-2008 05:20PM

Degsy wrote: »

Its all a matter of perspective.When you're in primary school you're told that all drugs will destroy your life,you're told that drink will destroy your liver and cigarettes will give you lung cancer.When you start to experience these things for yourself you see it aint neccesaarily so.So if the teachers were wrong about having a drink,you figure they're wronga bout having a spliff,then they're wrong about taking pills,doing coke or what have you.You can do all these drugs and you're fine,you're not addicted.You're having trouble sleeping after two days solid caning the pills and coke,somebody hands around a bit of Brown,its okay,you're not injecting it,you're not a junkie,your mates are doing it,it feels great,where's the addiction,the open sores and missing teeth from the ads?Bollocks,you say,the teachers and the government and the straight joes dont know what they're talking about.Smoke a bit at weekends,a little bit more each time(its like that).This can go on for months untill one day you wake up with cramps in your legs,your skin is hot and cold,your guts are retching,you NEED to get some stuff into you.YOu c an smoke it but its not economical anymore,you get twiice the goof from half the gear if you shoot it up.Its okay,nobody can see you doing it,you're getting on with your life,its your little secret.Nothing wrong with injecting,as long as you use clean needles,nothing to worry about....see?

You seem to have a clear understanding of why proper education, legalisation and regulation are necessary.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 11-03-2008 05:21PM

edit...

fight the power!

Dudess · 11-03-2008 05:23PM

Play nice...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2008 05:42PM

Degsy wrote: »

Its all a matter of perspective.When you're in primary school you're told that all drugs will destroy your life,you're told that drink will destroy your liver and cigarettes will give you lung cancer.When you start to experience these things for yourself you see it aint neccesaarily so.So if the teachers were wrong about having a drink,you figure they're wronga bout having a spliff,then they're wrong about taking pills,doing coke or what have you.You can do all these drugs and you're fine,you're not addicted.You're having trouble sleeping after two days solid caning the pills and coke,somebody hands around a bit of Brown,its okay,you're not injecting it,you're not a junkie,your mates are doing it,it feels great,where's the addiction,the open sores and missing teeth from the ads?Bollocks,you say,the teachers and the government and the straight joes dont know what they're talking about.Smoke a bit at weekends,a little bit more each time(its like that).This can go on for months untill one day you wake up with cramps in your legs,your skin is hot and cold,your guts are retching,you NEED to get some stuff into you.YOu c an smoke it but its not economical anymore,you get twiice the goof from half the gear if you shoot it up.Its okay,nobody can see you doing it,you're getting on with your life,its your little secret.Nothing wrong with injecting,as long as you use clean needles,nothing to worry about....see?

When I was at school, and I'm about the same age as yourself, I was told

1) If I couldn't speak Irish I was pretty much thick
2) If I fail the intercert my life is pretty much over - I'll be a road sweeper
3) Drugs are nasty things and nothing nice will happen to you if you use them
4) Lies make baby Jesus cry
5) You'll never make a ny money out of painting pictures

None of which (with the possible exception of number 4) turned out to be correct.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2008 05:43PM

There once was a boy named Gimmesome Roy. He was nothing like me or you.
'Cause laying back and getting high was all he cared to do.
As a kid, he sat in the cellar, sniffing airplane glue.
And then he smoked bananas -- which was then the thing to do.
He tried aspirin in Coca-Cola, breathed helium on the sly,
And his life was just one endless search to find that perfect high.
But grass just made him want to lay back and eat chocolate-chip pizza all night,
And the great things he wrote while he was stoned looked like **** in the morning light.
And speed just made him rap all day, reds just laid him back,
And Cocaine Rose was sweet to his nose, but the price nearly broke his back.
He tried PCP and THC, but they didn't quite do the trick,
And poppers nearly blew his heart and mushrooms made him sick.
Acid made him see the light, but he couldn't remember it long.
And hashish was just a little too weak, and smack was a lot too strong,
And Quaaludes made him stumble, and booze just made him cry,
Till he heard of a cat named Baba Fats who knew of the perfect high.

Now, Baba Fats was a hermit cat who lived up in Nepal,
High on a craggy mountaintop, up a sheer and icy wall.
"But hell," says Roy, "I'm a healthy boy, and I'll crawl or climb or fly,
But I'll find that guru who'll give me the clue as to what's the perfect high."
So out and off goes Gimmesome Roy to the land that knows no time,
Up a trail no man could conquer to a cliff no man could climb.
For fourteen years he tries that cliff, then back down again he slides
Then sits -- and cries -- and climbs again, pursuing the perfect high.
He's grinding his teeth, he's coughing blood, he's aching and shaking and weak,
As starving and sore and bleeding and tore, he reaches the mountain peak.
And his eyes blink red like a snow-blind wolf, and he snarls the snarl of a rat,
As there in perfect repose and wearing no clothes -- sits the godlike Baba Fats.

"What's happening, Fats?" says Roy with joy, "I've come to state my biz.
I hear you're hip to the perfect trip. Please tell me what it is.
For you can see," says Roy to he, "that I'm about to die,
So for my last ride, Fats, how can I achieve the perfect high?"
"Well, dog my cats!" says Baba Fats. "here's one more burnt-out soul,
Who's looking for some alchemist to turn his trip to gold.
But you won't find it in no dealer's stash, or on no druggist's shelf.
Son, if you would seek the perfect high -- find it in yourself."
"Why, you jive mother****er!" screamed Gimmesome Roy, "I've climbed through rain and sleet,
I've lost three fingers off my hands and four toes off my feet!
I've braved the lair of the polar bear and tasted the maggot's kiss.
Now, you tell me the high is in myself. What kind of **** is this?
My ears 'fore they froze off," says Roy, "had heard all kind of crap,
But I didn't climb for fourteen years to listen to that sophomore rap.
And I didn't crawl up here to hear that the high is on the natch,
So you tell me where the real stuff is or I'll kill your guru ass!"

"Ok, OK," says Baba Fats, "you're forcing it out of me.
There is a land beyond the sun that's known as Zaboli.
A wretched land of stone and sand where snakes and buzzards scream,
And in this devil's garden blooms the mystic Tzu-Tzu tree.
And every ten years it blooms one flower as white as the Key West sky,
And he who eats of the Tzu-Tzu flower will know the perfect high.
For the rush comes on like a tidal wave and it hits like the blazing sun.
And the high, it lasts a lifetime and the down don't ever come.
But the Zaboli land is ruled by a giant who stands twelve cubits high.
With eyes of red in his hundred heads, he waits for the passers-by.
And you must slay the red-eyed giant, and swim the River of Slime,
Where the mucous beasts, they wait to feast on those who journey by.
And if you survive the giant and the beasts and swim that slimy sea,
There's a blood-drinking witch who sharpens her teeth as she guards that Tzu-Tzu tree."

"To hell with your witches and giants," laughs Roy. "To hell with the beasts of the sea.
As long as the Tzu-Tzu flower blooms, some hope still blooms for me."
And with tears of joy in his snow-blind eye, Roy hands the guru a five,
Then back down the icy mountain he crawls, pursuing that perfect high.

"Well, that is that," says Baba Fats, sitting back down on his stone,
Facing another thousand years of talking to God alone.
"It seems, Lord", says Fats, "it's always the same, old men or bright-eyed youth,
It's always easier to sell them some **** than it is to give them the truth."

(Copyright Shel Silversien)

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 11-03-2008 06:00PM

are you sure you want to advertise to the world that you take your positions on real life events from fictional stories?

Dudess · 11-03-2008 06:06PM

Mordeth, read his post above it. Good poem Ikky!

Trojan911 wrote: »

No, I suggest you are clutching at straws.

It seems as though you are - you know you're being hypocritical by railing against those who fund the drugs industry and not those who fund the coffee/tea/chocolate/clothing/soft drinks ones which are also exploitative and abusive and murderous, so you just throw in the "I don't care if it's not happening in Ireland" line. What difference does it make whether it's in Ireland, Germany or Sumatra? So you'd be ok with English cocaine users then would you? Because they're not in Ireland...?

The OP clearly describes an Irish issue.

Your first post was critical of "the drugs industry" - that's not an Irish industry, it's a global one.

I was not the one who started on about tea & coffee. I have no issue with tea, coffee, chocolate or clothes. Do you know me or something?

Are you pretending to not understand what some of us are saying? I reckoned as soon as someone made the point about it being hypocritical to rail against those who fund the drugs industry, you'd trot out the line about it being illegal while coffee etc is not illegal. And I was right. That's the line people always use when they go on a rant about those who fund the drugs industry and when someone points out that, actually, paying for Coca-Cola is also funding a murderous operation. What the fukk difference does it make whether Coca-Cola is legal or not? If anything it actually makes it worse...

It was five year olds in your last post. Are you plucking figures out of the sky to try to back up your argument?

Oh now you're really clutching at straws. Does it matter what age I say they are - the point is, they're small children from three upwards.

Is one killing of an innocent person not enough? Would your view change if that innocent victim was one near & dear to you? How many more occasional killings must occur?

Sure. But really, if you're going to rail against exploitative, abusive, murderous industries and those who fund them, your protests are a load of hot air if you're not going to be consistent.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2008 06:11PM

Mordeth wrote: »

are you sure you want to advertise to the world that you take your positions on real life events from fictional stories?

Was that aimed at me? All I did was post a light-hearted amusing poem!! And all fiction is based on real events, is it not, with the aim of offering an insghtful angle into a knwon topic?

MCMLXXXIII · 11-03-2008 06:31PM

Lazare wrote: »

Heroin is different, our prisons are full to overflowing with heroin addicts, these guys have no choice but to break into your house or steal your car. Legalising, regulating and making it freely available would see crime rates drop drastically.

Heroine is probably the most pure substance anyone has ever created. The US created it as a pain killer, and as it was created - it has no addiction capabilities. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to keep pure - even for the US gov't. That's why the US never marketed it to the public. Eventually, people became addicted to it because of impure needles and other ways of taking it. So many people began to depend on it, the government took it out of the labs and stopped producing it. Now, it is made by ametuers that cannot keep it pure...so it's a large problem.

Back on topic. That slogan makes it seem like you need coke if you want to have fun. There is no party without coke.

"Hey man, what are you doing for your birthday?"
"Oh nothing big - I'm not having coke there or anything."

If the slogan was more like "Cocaine makes you stupid," or "Coke makes you a softie," or "Coke makes you have really ugly dark rings under your eyes" it would be much more effective.

Trojan911 · 11-03-2008 06:41PM

Dudess wrote: »

Mordeth, read his post above it. Good poem Ikky!

It seems as though you are - you know you're being hypocritical by railing against those who fund the drugs industry and not those who fund the coffee/tea/chocolate/clothing/soft drinks ones which are also exploitative and abusive and murderous, so you just throw in the "I don't care if it's not happening in Ireland" line. What difference does it make whether it's in Ireland, Germany or Sumatra? So you'd be ok with English cocaine users then would you? Because they're not in Ireland...?

Your first post was critical of "the drugs industry" - that's not an Irish industry, it's a global one.

Are you pretending to not understand what some of us are saying? I reckoned as soon as someone made the point about it being hypocritical to rail against those who fund the drugs industry, you'd trot out the line about it being illegal while coffee etc is not illegal. And I was right. That's the line people always use when they go on a rant about those who fund the drugs industry and when someone points out that, actually, paying for Coca-Cola is also funding a murderous operation. What the fukk difference does it make whether Coca-Cola is legal or not? If anything it actually makes it worse...

Oh now you're really clutching at straws. Does it matter what age I say they are - the point is, they're small children from three upwards.

Sure. But really, if you're going to rail against exploitative, abusive, murderous industries and those who fund them, your protests are a load of hot air if you're not going to be consistent.

You really are confused. What a load of waffle.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 11-03-2008 06:45PM

you're confusing waffle with reasoned argument, it's ok.. you've clearly never come across it before.

Degsy · 11-03-2008 06:47PM

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

subHeroine is probably the most pure substance anyone has ever created. The US created it as a pain killer, and as it was created - it has no addiction capabilities. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to keep pure - even for the US gov't. That's why the US never marketed it to the public. Eventually, people became addicted to it because of impure needles and other ways of taking it. So many people began to depend on it, out of the labthe government took it s and stopped producing it. Now, it is made by ametuers that cannot keep it pure...so it's a large problem.

Its actually difficult to find ANYTHING in what you've written that makes any kind of sense.

Dudess · 11-03-2008 08:14PM

Oh here comes Trojan911 to defend his position with a well-thought-out argument.

Trojan911 wrote: »

You really are confused. What a load of waffle.

Oh, wait...

rubadub · 11-03-2008 09:05PM

iguana wrote: »

Because the actions of tea, coffee, chocolate and oil companies are every bit as despicable as the actions of those involved in the drugs trade.

Some would consider tea, coffee and chocolate companies to be part of the legal recreational drug trade, dealing in caffeine, the most widely (ab)used stimulant on the planet, the first "buzz" most people will experience. The original "gateway drug" if you believe in that logic. Red bull is banned in Norway. Denmark, Norway & Germany all have restrictions on the amount of caffeine in drinks. Caffeine is not a OTC drug in Germany, while parents freely give toddlers here the drug.

Degsy wrote: »

It makes me smile to hear these weekend coke-warriors talking as if they're some sort of expert on the subject of drug taking.The fact is that its impossible to get pure cocaine in Ireland unless you're buying the stuff by the kilo.Anybody who buys 100 quids worth in a pub and says its "good coke,man" is talking out thier arse.

I think most users are well aware of this, when they say "good" I would presume they mean "relatively good" to the utter crap they usually get.

Mordeth wrote: »

Remember kids, bathtub alcohol is dangerous.. buy from an off license, the products they sell are held to such standards.

It makes me smile when I hear these weekend gargle-monsters talking like they are alcohol experts getting a shot of low quality spirits and saying it is good.
From this site

The data in Wheeler & Willmotts "Spirits unlimited - a complete guide to home distilling" gives :

* Home distilled spirit (untreated): methanol 0.0067%, ethanol 99.632%, fusils 0.361%
* Commercial vodka: methanol 0.013%, ethanol 99.507%, fusils 0.48%
* Poor quality home distilled spirit : methanol 0.0186%, ethanol 98.453%, and fusils 1.528%

Now their "home distilled spirit" was at a time when their best design was only putting out roughly 75% pure ethanol. What's the story from like a Nixon-Stone or Euro doing 95%+ purity ?

To get 75% takes 2 distillations, 95.5% takes around 20. Homedistillers usually use sugar brews which have only minute traces of methanol. Many commercial distilleries get by on the bare legal amounts of methanol in their drinks. Then they brag about their filtration processes!, charcoaling etc. These processes are necessary to mask and lessen the taste of the contaminants which give you your hangover. They can pull out the last of the illegal amounts of methanol from your drink. To distil properly costs more so most don't bother.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Yes, but how does legalising certain substances higher the liklihood of someone driving whilst under the influence of a drug?

The drug is more freely available, it is automatically more socially acceptable, just like smoking in pubs or even peoples houses became more socially unacceptable after the workplace ban. Many peoples only opposition to taking cannabis is its illegality, a few members here have expressed that in other threads. When people go to holland they are more likely to admit they smoked cannabis there, it is like "well it was legal there so what's the problem, I wouldn't do it here" (it is not legal there BTW)

Mordeth wrote: »

People will either want to try lsd or heroin, or they won't. It's legality doesn't really enter into it and to suggest that if it suddenly became legal far more people would be trying them..

I think some would. Look at the "what are you addicted to" thread, many list alcohol and smokes, they do not appear that concerned about being addicts. I am fond of my drugs, I drink like a fish, but I can honestly say that if alcohol had been illegal all my life I doubt I ever would have touched the stuff. I would have been swayed by the media and propaganda that would have existed. All users would have been portrayed as homeless winos, much in the way heroin addicts are all portrayed as mugging junkies. If I had met a alcohol user they probably would have warned of the extreme comedown (hangover). Many would not touch the legal BZP after hearing warnings of the comedown, I personally found it far easier to deal with than the alcohol comedown. If I had legally obtained alcohol and drank it I might well have presumed it was contaminated crap due to the hangover and never touched it again.

When people see a drug is legal many wrongly presume it must be fine, I think there would be a huge rise in addicts for this reason. Still not reason enough to ban it. Judging from the addiction thread there is no real stigma to being an open functional addict.

Degsy wrote: »

Sure,I'm just saying the crap is illegal,it funds crime,it kills people,it ruins lives,it turns normal people into arseholes,it sucks all the money out of your bank account,its not pure,it doesnt make you creative or funny or friendly,it doesnt go with music or food or films,it makes people agressive and paranoid and schizophrenic,it destroys your heart faster than anything else,the giovernment want to stop people taking the stuff and i'm suggesting a good way they can do it.

Many non-drinkers would say a lot of the same stuff about booze, but most do not call for it to be illegal for some reason. Perhaps they think people do have the right to squander their money, ruin their life, turn into arseholes get aggressive & paranoid etc.

Degsy wrote: »

Oh yeah?How do you think a lot of people got into heroin inthe first place?I'll tell ya shall i?
They started smoking it either because other stuff wasnt available OR to come down after a night on pills or coke.There's a link there,make no mistake.

Most start on caffeine, then nicotine, alcohol, hash, e/lsd, coke, heroin. Many who are on heroin have an addictive personality and a strong natural drive for wanting to experience altered states of conciousness. Just like most S&M freaks start out on page 3. It simply would not make sense if heroin addicts did not smoke hash before heroin.
I do know 2 people who took up heroin as a comedown to E and coke that was in their mid 20's. They also smoked hash to comedown off alcohol in their late teens. Breaking the source link can help a little. Even the gardai have given up on the gateway logic as it takes from the credibility of their campaigns.

Dashticle wrote: »

Get a grip. Just because someone sells weed or pills does not mean they are going to deal heroin. Some very few do, not all. Bottom line is heroin is generally seen as a dirty, underground drug.

That is true, the media portray all dealers as gun slinging scum. Fact is most people buy their drugs from friends.

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

Heroine is probably the most pure substance anyone has ever created. The US created it as a pain killer, and as it was created - it has no addiction capabilities.

Nonsense. Many doctors are addicted to heroin, and lead fully functional lives as addicts, but they are addicts make no mistake. Just like many alcoholics can leave a normal enough life and function in society.

Earthhorse · 11-03-2008 09:09PM

Mordeth wrote: »

People will either want to try lsd or heroin, or they won't. It's legality doesn't really enter into it and to suggest that if it suddenly became legal far more people would be trying them.. sweet jesus.

Mordeth wrote: »

exactly. because it's illegal. so they ahve to go to the same illegal dealer for everything, who tries to push things they normally wouldn't do on them.

So people will either want to try LSD or heroin or they won't, unless their drug dealer suggests otherwise.

Kold · 11-03-2008 09:19PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

So people will either want to try LSD or heroin or they won't, unless their drug dealer suggests otherwise.

If I go to the shop for a can of coke and all they have is coffee then I leave with nothing.

MCMLXXXIII · 11-03-2008 09:19PM

Degsy wrote: »

Its actually difficult to find ANYTHING in what you've written that makes any kind of sense.

There isn't much to it. The US created heroine during the Vietnam War. Pure heroine is not addictive. It worked and people felt better, so they tried taking it without a doctor to administer it. Old needles were used and it wasn't in a sterile doctor's office, so the drug was no where near pure. It is addictive in that form. People abused it and became addicted to the impure form of heroine. Perhaps, Degsy, you can benefit from the message this campaign is trying to send.

rubadub · 11-03-2008 09:23PM

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

There isn't much to it. The US created heroine during the Vietnam War. Pure heroine is not addictive. It worked and people felt better, so they tried taking it without a doctor to administer it. Old needles were used and it wasn't in a sterile doctor's office, so the drug was no where near pure. It is addictive in that form. People abused it and became addicted to the impure form of heroine. Perhaps, Degsy, you can benefit from the message this campaign is trying to send.

LOL, brilliant stuff!

Wertz · 11-03-2008 09:25PM

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

There isn't much to it. The US created heroine during the Vietnam War. Pure heroine is not addictive. It worked and people felt better, so they tried taking it without a doctor to administer it. Old needles were used and it wasn't in a sterile doctor's office, so the drug was no where near pure. It is addictive in that form. People abused it and became addicted to the impure form of heroine. Perhaps, Degsy, you can benefit from the message this campaign is trying to send.

You're high right now aren't you?

Earthhorse · 11-03-2008 10:59PM

Kold wrote: »

If I go to the shop for a can of coke and all they have is coffee then I leave with nothing.

Great, but you're missing my point, which is that Mordeth appears to be contradicting himself.

JC 2K3 · 11-03-2008 11:14PM

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

There isn't much to it. The US created heroine during the Vietnam War. Pure heroine is not addictive. It worked and people felt better, so they tried taking it without a doctor to administer it. Old needles were used and it wasn't in a sterile doctor's office, so the drug was no where near pure. It is addictive in that form. People abused it and became addicted to the impure form of heroine. Perhaps, Degsy, you can benefit from the message this campaign is trying to send.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Trojan911 · 12-03-2008 09:47AM

Dudess wrote: »

Oh here comes Trojan911 to defend his position with a well-thought-out argument.

Oh, wait...

Confused & childish.

Dudess · 12-03-2008 11:39AM

Oh dear, you really don't have a leg to stand on where this argument is concerned.

iguana · 12-03-2008 12:03PM

her·o·ine
1. A woman noted for courage and daring action.
2. A woman noted for special achievement in a particular field.
3. The principal female character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Why do so many people have a problem with lady heros?

Degsy · 12-03-2008 12:29PM

iguana wrote: »

Why do so many people have a problem with lady heros?

Blah blah blah..give it a rest

Earthhorse · 12-03-2008 01:08PM

iguana wrote: »

Why do so many people have a problem with lady heros?

I guess you don't know much about the history of heroines.

Heroines were originally developed by the US government (CIA) based on a stick figure drawing by President Kennedy. They were pretty much the purest people ever developed and people enjoyed them but subsequent heroines were not based on this stick figure but on oil paintings and charcoal drawings so they were not as pure which is why Joss Whedon could not direct Wonder Woman. Perhaps you could benefit from that.

Dudess · 12-03-2008 01:10PM

OK: Lol

but keep it on topic... and civil. Please.

The party's over

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