Ronaldo eh?

PHB · 09-03-2008 04:38PM

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 04:42PM

PHB wrote: »

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

CL Final, 3 down. Thats pressure. Can anyone tell me when he's dragged his team on his own ala Keane Vs. Juve? Figo Vs. Barcelona

PHB · 09-03-2008 04:47PM

2-1 down from the first leg, looking like going out to a talented Roma team, and then utterly destroyed them with a MOM performance.

Now I'm happy to accept that Roma aren't as good as Milan, but to argue that that wasn't a performance where he was unreal is just stupid. Then again, this whole argument is stupid. The internet eh

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 04:52PM

PHB wrote: »

I'm happy to accept that Roma aren't as good as Milan,

not a top bracket team. They would have hammered Roma without him, even with John O'Shea on the wing!

The chap is brilliant. He has matured a lot from when he arrived at united first. Maybe in the next few years he'll stop hiding in the big games against the big teams.

Mr. Presentable · 09-03-2008 04:55PM

PHB wrote: »

Also, I think the whole idea that the league used to be better is equally crap.

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

I am not having a go at C Ronaldo, merely observing he is not offered the quality of opposition he might have had in the past, or have in a different league. Can you imagine Denis Teuart whinging that he's not allowed display his skills? I wonder how a modern player would fare with the likes of Bremner, Styles, Smyth and Jones playing against him, with no "protection" from the ref and proper cloggers for boots.

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 05:02PM

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

I am not having a go at C Ronaldo, merely observing he is not offered the quality of opposition he might have had in the past, or have in a different league. Can you imagine Denis Teuart whinging that he's not allowed display his skills? I wonder how a modern player would fare with the likes of Bremner, Styles, Smyth and Jones playing against him, with no "protection" from the ref and proper cloggers for boots.

BRILLIANT

PHB · 09-03-2008 05:05PM

hamnegg, Roma are currently 2nd in the league, 10 points clear of AC Milan in the league. Yet Fabregas vs. Milan was a top class performance, but Roma vs. Ronaldo wasn't?

The thing about this debate is, it'll never be settled until Ronaldo wins a Champions League final. Luckily, I think this year might be the time :P

Unearthly · 09-03-2008 05:06PM

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.
.

The competitiveness of a league doesn't define the quality of it.

Eircom League has a different winner most years but wouldn't be near Prem/Serie A/La Liga

Mr. Presentable · 09-03-2008 05:12PM

Unearthly wrote: »

The competitiveness of a league doesn't define the quality of it.

Eircom League has a different winner most years but wouldn't be near Prem/Serie A/La Liga

Agreed. There would be a relativley even spread of quality and that's the point!

PHB · 09-03-2008 05:13PM

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

The league was more competitive. I'm not denying that. What I am denying is that that means that the other teams are ****ter than they used to be. It just means that the top 4 have gotten a lot better.
People talk about how great La Liga is, because the crap teams beat Barca and Madrid all the time, but that's because Barca and Madrid are terrible defensively! It's not that they have better lower table teams, its that they are nowhere near as consistant as the top top 4 in England, especially defensively.

The teams below are just as good, and imo, better than they ever were. It's just that the top 4 have taken the game to a whole new level.
I'm not saying that those 3 players are a reflection of the standard, I'm saying if you look at Everton, Villa, Rovers, City, Porstmouth, Spurs, West Ham you can find real quality throughout the side!
Everton have some great players, Arteta, Cahill, Yakubu
Villa have some great players, Mellberg (who is off to Juve next season), Laursen, Young, Agbanlahor
Rovers have some great players in McCarthy [CL winner btw], Bentley, Pederson
City have some great players, Elano, Pertrov, Dunne, Richards, Benjami
Portsmouth have some good players too, Defoe, Diarra, James, Distin
West Ham have a great player in Ashton and a good player in Parker.
Spurs have some real quality players, Berbatov, Keane, Woodgate, King, Lennon are all very very good players, yet they are only 11th in the league!
There is real quality in the league this year, especially in the defences.

Indeed, the premiership imo has the most top quality central defenders in any league in the world. After the top 4, you have pairings like Dunne + Richards, Distin + Campbell, Woodgate + King, Laursen + Davies, Yobo + Lescott

Unearthly · 09-03-2008 05:14PM

nipplenuts wrote: »

Agreed. There would be a relativley even spread of quality and that's the point!

imo Ronaldo would score against every team then

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 05:16PM

PHB wrote: »

hamnegg, Roma are currently 2nd in the league, 10 points clear of AC Milan in the league. Yet Fabregas vs. Milan was a top class performance, but Roma vs. Ronaldo wasn't?

The thing about this debate is, it'll never be settled until Ronaldo wins a Champions League final. Luckily, I think this year might be the time :P

Traore has 1. He didn't play well in the Final. When he does it when the chips are down. Fabregas was up against it last week. United were 4 up by half time.

He layed off a simple ball for Carricks opener(peach of a goal) but that was it until the second half.

When it was 4-0, i.e. pressure off. Great performance all right

Unearthly · 09-03-2008 05:18PM

hamnegg wrote: »

He layed off a simple ball for Carricks opener(peach of a goal) but that was it until the second half.

When it was 4-0, i.e. pressure off. Great performance all right

He destroyed Panucci I think it was for the 4th goal and slammed it in.

PHB · 09-03-2008 05:19PM

That's such a terrible way to understand football its unreal

In the Roma game, his all round game was amazing, and his end results were great.
The idea that he can't deal with pressure is just so silly, since he just scored against Lyon. That said, his all round game wasn't great. Which counts more

Nonetheless, let's give it some time, next friday will show the next team he'll be up against

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 05:25PM

PHB wrote: »

Nonetheless, let's give it some time, next friday will show the next team he'll be up against

Fair enough, We'll talk again apres quarter finals!

eZe^ · 09-03-2008 05:40PM

PHB wrote: »

People talk about how great La Liga is, because the crap teams beat Barca and Madrid all the time, but that's because Barca and Madrid are terrible defensively! It's not that they have better lower table teams, its that they are nowhere near as consistant as the top top 4 in England, especially defensively.

Bull**** tbh, Madrid have only become bad defensively recently, and Barcelona have the best defensive record in La Liga. La Liga's top 4 changes regularly (well, 2 of the 4 spots), with the likes of Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Deportivo La Coruna, Sevilla, Zaragoza and Villareal being there in the past couple of years.

Ronaldo's a great player, why dont we leave it at that?

Dubit10 · 09-03-2008 05:40PM

PHB wrote: »

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Nailz · 09-03-2008 05:42PM

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Emmence?? I don't think so, Hamann had the game of his life!

PHB · 09-03-2008 05:49PM

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

I was pointing out how silly the initial statement was through an apt comparison.

Bull**** tbh, Madrid have only become bad defensively recently, and Barcelona have the best defensive record in La Liga. La Liga's top 4 changes regularly (well, 2 of the 4 spots), with the likes of Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Deportivo La Coruna, Sevilla, Zaragoza and Villareal being there in the past couple of years.

Indeed, their top 4 does change. No denying that. That's because none of the top 4 stepped up. If Ambrovomich hadn't come into the PL, our top 4 would change reguarly, indeed it used to

Barca have concedded 21.
Real have concedded 24.
Villareal have concedded 35.
Atletico have concedded 32.

Arsenal have concedded 21.
United have concedded 15.
Chelsea have concedded 17.
Liverpool have concedded 20.

In the CL, you will find that English teams have a better defensive record also. Marquez is a average player when compared to the top 4 defenders. Pepe is no better than Brown. La Liga defenses are worse, its why their league is much more 'open', despite the fact that Real Madrid or Barca win it every year

Mr. Presentable · 09-03-2008 05:52PM

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Immense.

But couldn't keep his feet, IIRC

flyswatter · 09-03-2008 05:58PM

He's a very talented player getting better all the time. He's only 22. I can see him having a bigger impact in more important matches as he matures as a player.

eZe^ · 09-03-2008 06:00PM

La Liga is more open because the Spanish style of play is more open. Pepe? He's Madrids 3rd choice defender, he was also not even finished his first season, he was bought as a future prospect. Marquez is also barca's 3rd/ 4th choice CB, he has definitely been playing badly the past 2 seasons but when 2 years ago he was fantastic for both club and Mexico at the WC.

I admit that the top 2 Spanish sides atm have worse defenses than those in the PL, but I also bet if those teams played in La Liga week in week out they'd concede more goals than they currently do.

PHB · 09-03-2008 06:15PM

Fair enough about those players, and I do think that PL defences would probbaly concede more, but I was just using them to make the point though.

The thing is also, as a team they defend much worse, largely because their midfielders don't defend much

That's why they drop so many points though, often getting hit on the break, which happens very rarely to United or Chelsea.
You're right, their open style of play is the reason why they concede more, but it's also the reason the league is more open. It's not because the other teams are better.

Mr Alan · 09-03-2008 06:32PM

PHB wrote: »

By the age of 23, the following players had won:

Zidane - Nothing
Seedorf - 2 CL's, La Liga, 2 Dutch titles
Maldini - Serie A, 2 CLs
Del Piero - 2 Serie As, 1 CL
Shevchenko - Ukranian League 5 Times
Trezeguet - World Cup, EC
Raul - La Liga twice and a CL
Henry - World Cup, EC
Ronaldinho - Brazilian League, Intertoto Cup
Robinho - La Liga
Kaka' - Serie A
Messi - Still only 20, has won the League and the CL [although played no part in the latter campaign due to injury]

You need to get out more man

eZe^ · 09-03-2008 06:33PM

Messi won 2 league titles btw.

Tusky · 09-03-2008 06:42PM

How can people even argue against the fact that Ronaldo is top class. He is 23 years old, is a winger and is top scorer in the league and on 30 goals in all comps. Its not even up for debate and I'm a life long Liverpool fan!

In regards to him not scoring against the big teams or not dominating games...you could say the same about any other winger in the world pretty much. Did I mention the boy is 22 ?

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 06:44PM

Tusky wrote: »

How can people even argue against the fact that Ronaldo is top class. He is 23 years old, is a winger and is top scorer in the league and on 30 goals in all comps. Its not even up for debate and I'm a life long Liverpool fan!

In regards to him not scoring against the big teams or not dominating games...you could say the same about any other winger in the world pretty much.

He is class! But he hides in big games, in my opinion,

Mr Alan · 09-03-2008 06:46PM

I aint saying he does go missing in big games.

BUT does it really ****ing matter when he does it 4 games out of 5?! he is still world class.

Nunu · 09-03-2008 06:47PM

Tusky wrote: »

He is 23 years old,

Did I mention the boy is 22 ?

No, you didn't:D

hamnegg · 09-03-2008 06:50PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

I aint saying he does go missing in big games.

BUT does it really ****ing matter when he does it 4 games out of 5?! he is still world class.

When that 1 game in 5(and its more like 1 in 20), is when ur back is to the wall u need a class player to deliver

He is up there as one of the best in the worl at the moment. He has come on a huge amount since he arrived. If he matures and improves at this rate its scary how good he will become.

Where he needs to improve is in the big games.

Ronaldo eh?

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