the two Polish guy's that got stabbed

Iorana wrote: »

But we do not have such an amount of kids behaving badly, this is for sure.
And the respect for adults is still there, no doubts about it.
We have crimes, I can't deny it, we have areas where you would go.
Attacks are easier to avoid for this reason that you would not go there.
I'd say, children are more sort of managable in Poland, I could give some examples of things that happened to me here that never happened in Poland.
Kids are also made more aware in my country of good manners, let's say my mum would always say don't leave this rubbish here, put it to the bin, or in the bus I would be expected to leave my seat to a pregnant woman, my dad would ask me to do so and I couldn't say no.
Until age of 16 my parents knew how I am doing in school, where do I go and with who, I would be expected to come back at the decent hour home.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to point at Ireland saying what is wrong what is good. These are just the facts, observation, comparison, that's it.
I have a 2 years old daughter and I am trying to bring her up the same way like my parents did.

Greetings to you guys

nice to talk on this forum by the way, I've only read it so far

Yes, but my parents brought me up that way too and if you read this thread and the other thread on why you are not a skanger you'll see that most people said their uprbringing was why their were not knackbots.

You could argue that Poland is exactly the same. Some people, like you were brought up properly and some weren't, and they're scumbags. This is not just an Irish problem although it is getting worse here.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oh I fully recognise that there are mental health issues of a wide variety of colours and flavours - however you need to recognise that there is a difference between being ill and being malicious. We aren't dealing with a spate of sickness here, we're dealing with a subculture whose meme is to get away with what you can, and take pleasure in the suffering of others. This has developed through their experience of gaming the system and their knowledge of how far they can push it. They are not deserving of pity, and dealing with them should deal with the larger picture, not just with individuals.


Actually I think psychology itself is a young science with a great deal to learn about what makes up the human mind. Only recently was the push changed from making people "normal" (and just what the hell is that) to making them become the best they can be, and even that approach is mildly flawed in my opinion. Its also very much associated with the for-profit pharmaceuticals industry, which makes it further suspect.


These would be the people behind doping up children who are "overactive" and categorising them with something called ADD?


IQ tests are not part of the standard school curriculum in Ireland, or anywhere else, for good reason.


Africa is composed of many different cultures.


There is no definitive description of what "intelligence" is. So tell me, how can there be a "quotient system"? I've been tested at over 150 myself, which puts me in the high genius category, and I still say its a load of crap. Further I don't recognise these aberrent individuals as being part of the same culture as myself, nationally or locally. Likewise for the many facets that make up intelligence, it is impossible to define a "norm", since it depends upon the indivudal to a great extent. Heres a bit more information:




On the contrary you come across as an educated and concerned professional with a decent manner. My overall point would be that the solutions you have outlined have failed in the US, they have failed here. Therefore there must be something wrong with those solutions.

No no SimpleSam.

Firstly, I really dislike the way you continue to refer to psychiatry and all its 'wide variety of colours and flavours'. It's not a sweet shop and I stand my my earlier point that perhaps in time if someone close to you experiences a psychiatric illness, you may eventually come to understand our practice. It is you who needs to recognise the concept of psychiatry, the concept of mental illness, being ill in the mind - whichever is easier for you to grasp or identify with - and stop making derogatory marks like you do.

I work in the area of child and adolescent psychiatry and although I don't have all the detailed knowledge, I assure you that I am able to distinguish between someone who is mentally ill and someone who is not. So no need to suggest that I need to learn there is a difference between experiencing a mental illness and not.

I never said that we were only dealing with 'a spate of sickness' as you call it. I was merely trying to point out the typical background profile of young offenders, based on my own personal experience and current research. However, if you choose to ignore some of the figures I was quoting (e.g. the fact that 85% of young offenders present with serious and often mulitiple psych disordes), then sail on and I guess ignorance is bliss as they say.

You claim that these teens take pleasure in their actions - How do you know this? Have you ever personally interacted with them? Have you researched emotional well-being and reflection in these cases? Have you read any related material? Have you any real-life experience to support this brash statement? Or is it yet another of your ill-founded opinions? I cannot understadn how you can make these claims when you clearly have absolutely no basis on which to back them up, apart from some sensational tabloids or whatever else you have come across.

You say they are not deserving of any pity - I say that's a matter of personal opinion as to whether we each feel pity or not. Of course, there is a difference between having pity for someone vs. having the knowledge or understanding of their experiences. Perhaps you could set yourself a challene and go out, get stuck in and meet/learn about some of these kids - I think even you might find some feeling in your heart.

'Dealing with them should deal with the larger picture, not just the individuals?' - What do you mean by this? If you're talking about the bigger problem as in the level of society, then that's what I was advocating for and trying to bring some information to this discussion. What are trying to say with that statement? Deal with them collectively in a group? Besides, I would be interested in what you have to say yourself, any personal recommendations either for the 'individual' or the 'bigger picture'? Any suggestions?

I'm quite aware of the move in psychiatry from aiming for 'normal' to the best that the person can be, thank you. I'm curious why you brought that up yourself - you cannot seem to accept the extent of the difficulties that these teens might experience, so how can you understand the concept of accepting these limitations and aiming for them to maxmise existing abilities to function in their setting?

Nice touch putting the word overactive in inverted commas.
ADHD is a middle class name for naughty children!
ADHD, the latest American import!
Categorising these children with something called ADD!
How the media has clouded rather than clarified our understanding of ADHD. I assure you that ADHD does exist and indeed the mantra of practice is not to label 'bold' children with ADHD - each child must reach quite tight diagnostic criteria. It has a neurobiological basis,caused by a minor dysfunction in the brain and identifiable using Positron Emission Tomography.Prevalence figures in the US are higher than Europe, but ADHD has been present in the UK literature for well over a century. UK estimates are 1 in 200 children will be diagnosed with ADHD, while 1 in 2000 will actually have it. Obviously it can vary hugely in severity and there are plenty of people leading typical lives and not a bother. However, when it exists in the context of associated problems like co-ordination, self-regulation, lack of inhibition, conduct, language and social communication difficulties, disorganisation, motor difficulties, variability and insatiability - never mind family and school support, then ADHD is a big deal. I can sort of undertsand people querying its existence and i genuinely myself probably underestimated the severity until I worked in my current job, but believe me there are kids out there who cannot even attend to self-selected play for longer than thirty seconds or sleep for longer than wo hours a night, every night. I would really dread the thought of having a child with mod/severe ADHD and the impact it would have on my own and the family dynamic. And then there's having to deal with attitudes like yours where you will probably tell me to just slap my child and he'll be fine. No.

Can I also point out that parenting is not the cause of ADHD - it can obviously affect the outcomes but it is not a cause. And ADHD occurs across all socio-economic classess too.

Put it like this, if you had to spend an hour with one of the ADHD children I'm talking about, then you would know what ADHD means.

With your reference to doping - presume you are somewhat unclear about medication for ADHD. This isn't a medical forum so I'm not going to go into that in detail but if you want to build up your facts, there are plenty of RCTs and general literature reviews out there. In my experience, works wonders for some kids and is the difference between them being available for learning in school and bouncing on the floor. For others, doesn't have as much effect.

I never said that IQ tests were or should be part of the standard school curriculum. You originally stated that IQ tests measure only the ability to take an IQ test and there would be a difference in performance of children across continents. I responded that cognitive assessments used here have been standardised on Western cutures. Not that they are standard in schools. You seem to have not followed my point but any general statistics/quantatitive research book will explain what standardisation of tests means.

In fact, most schools struggle enormously with accessing cognitive assessments for the children that they have identified as being in need. Usually they have to prioritise according to severity as there are simply not enough personnel out there to do the assessments.

Indeed Africa is composed of many different cultures. That was a typo on my part originally but thank you for the pedantic input anyway.

I know there is no definition of 'intelligence' or 'norms' simply becasue of the great number and variety of us all in the world.

Not sure why you included the piece about the Afria/Asia IQ testing - it's nothing new to me and I never disagreed with any related content.

I don't understand why you continue to challenge all of this. Spend some time out there, get your hands dirty and then maybe come back.

Yes I am an educated professional - and at the risk of sounding completely corny and soft - I'm glad that I have the knowledge and some experience to base my opinions on.

Your conclusion stated that the solutions that I outlined will not work. Thanks for the misplaced compliment there but I did not outline any solutions. I was merely pointing out the background to most of these cases, which yes, I do beieve will form an integral component of any 'solutions' or to use the more professional terms, intervention and rehabilitation.

Talking about all intervention failing in the US is a grandiose but vague and poorly-informed statement. Certianly, it's work in progress but there are programmes out there with some success - I'll check for references for you over the weekend if you'd like? PM me and I'll be more than happy to send you some studies.

Talking about solutions failing here - that's simply BS because we've never had the money, the people or the resources to try. Hopeful with the new information that we have, talking to the kids/teens in question and using our clinical experience we can get there in the future. Actually great news today re the new detention centre being built in Lusk - which means that 16/17year olds will have their own space, rather than sharing a cell with a 70year old sexual offender/drug trafficker for example.

In conclusion, and back to the OP here, I'm just sick of hearing people saying things like fining the parents or put them in jail for life. Life is not always like with our judicial system anyway, our reoffending rates are through the roof and much higher for the younger offenders obviosuly, common sense tells us that people come out of prison worse than when they went in. So essentially we would be locking these teens up for about 15years, letting them out and waitin for them to re-offend, taking another innocent life in the process.

I'm not at all excusing or defending the teens in this or any other case. No one is devoid of reason and absolutely, you learn to control your behaviour if you want to function in society. But we have to try and learn about the profile of this client group if we are to move any way forward with this.

Remember, prosocial behaviour is motivated, not learned.

raemie21 wrote: »

Firstly, I really dislike the way you continue to refer to psychiatry and all its 'wide variety of colours and flavours'. It's not a sweet shop

I was referring mental issues, illnesses and malaises, in an expression widely understood to connotate "varied". Not sure why you picked on that point.

raemie21 wrote: »

It is you who needs to recognise the concept of psychiatry, the concept of mental illness, being ill in the mind - whichever is easier for you to grasp or identify with - and stop making derogatory marks like you do.

Kindly don't confuse me with one of the "mislead demographics" you are striving to educate, which was the point I was getting across earlier, and which for some reason offended your sensibilities.

raemie21 wrote: »

You claim that these teens take pleasure in their actions - How do you know this?

He high fived his friends afterwards. This underlines the entire gist of my argument, and highlights the failures in yours. This lack of comprehension of what motivates these individuals is what leads ultimately to the failure of treatment and an increasingly worse social environment for everyone. Basing your actions on a flawed premise will not produce the desired results. And that pretty much sums it up.

raemie21 wrote: »

UK estimates are 1 in 200 children will be diagnosed with ADHD, while 1 in 2000 will actually have it.

So thats a 90% misdiagnosis rate. Again, it speaks for itself.

raemie21 wrote: »

I never said that IQ tests were or should be part of the standard school curriculum.

So why did you say I could go into any school and compare it?

raemie21 wrote: »

I responded that cognitive assessments used here have been standardised on Western cutures... You seem to have not followed my point but any general statistics/quantatitive research book will explain what standardisation of tests means.

Yeah. That whooshing sound was the point I made going over your head - that not only are western cultures very different to one another, sub cultures within those cultures are very different as well. And different cultures value inteligence in different ways. So are you grasping what I mean by the value of your "standardised tests"?

raemie21 wrote: »

Besides, I would be interested in what you have to say yourself, any personal recommendations either for the 'individual' or the 'bigger picture'? Any suggestions?

I don't honestly think you are interested in what myself and my misinformed opinions have to say - you seem to have a far greater fascination with picking out points that I didn't make and disproving them.

raemie21 wrote: »

I don't understand why you continue to challenge all of this. Spend some time out there, get your hands dirty and then maybe come back.

Put it like this, if you had to spend an hour with one of the ADHD children I'm talking about, then you would know what ADHD means.

Yeah listen I'm going to leave it at that, you're obviously busy on your cross on the moment...

teetotaller wrote: »

u know well that feckers are everywhere and it same easy to get drugs in Irish or polish primary school. in both countries kids are stealing, drinking, fighting. But one difference I see between our countries is that usually, generally in Poland kids won't throw petards into young tall man, as their asses could be kicked easily. And here LAW is protecting all young scumbags, and u can be in serious troubles if u even touch kid. and kids knows this rule.
also other difference i see is that if there is a grup of five or ten - 10- 15 years old people - in Poland they won't have a chance to stay in the evening beside petrol station , inside shoppings, inside small shops, supermarkets. Here kids are screaming , and spending half of their lifes in these places and security or employees are only looking at them doing nothing.

Yep, there is a lot of truth to that actually. Police and courts have much more powers to deal with little scumbags, poverty and difficult upbringing is not an excuse as much as it is here. It's also true that if you only defend yourself you won't get in much trouble, as long as you don't go over the top.

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

I was told that people in poland carry a weapon on them for self defence, Should everyone be allowed to carry something to protect themselves? Or will it make things worse?

Yep, some people do carry weapons for self defence. Same as here. And same as here it's illegal in Poland, and you'd get in a lot of trouble for using a weapon on someone.

You even need a permit to own a baseball bat in Poland.

WooPeeA wrote: »

But it's legal to have a gas, paralyzing guns, knifes.. The law is not clear in Poland.

I agree that it's very strict in Ireland. One time i bought a nerve gas in Germany. I was traveling with that over Europe for about 2 years. Just for self secure. Everything was ok and legal so I just brought it to Ireland and was almost arrested by Garda as it's not legal here! They took it away. The only country in Europe within you cannot have a nerve gas I think.

But that's good sometimes. Remember that if it's easy to buy and legal, it's legal for everyone, including offenders.

Knives - you can by everywhere. You can buy samurai sword in Dublin no problem.

Gas - Im assuming you mean pepper or CS Spray, not nerve gas - it's a relatively harmfull agent designed for defence, it leaves no lasting effects. I know it can be used to attack someone, but the same goes for a brick or a sock full of pennies. And I'd rather be pepper sprayed than hit in the head with a brick. On the other hand, women can defend themselves with pepper spray or CS gas, or at least it gives them much better chance when attacked..

parallasying guns - I'm assuming you mean tasers - the ones that shoot electrodes can be only kept at home, you can't actually walk around with them, afaik. As for the ones which you need to actually touch someone with - see what I wrote about gas.

And offenders if they want can get this stuff easy enough anyway, and they don't care whether it's legal or not.

Somebody has written that scumbag problem exists because of Poverty? In ireland? Blahahahah.
Go to some village or small town in eastern europe. You will see what the poverty is. Poor people usually are normal or even better than the rich.
Poor people have no money for gold rings and neckchains, poor people have no money for drugs. (Of course they drink alcohol often)
It's good idea to send few irish scumbag kids to Poland. They wiouldn't survive a week if they would things like here. Some adult would kick them asses instantly

Jackus wrote: »

Somebody has written that scumbag problem exists because of Poverty? In ireland? Blahahahah.
Go to some village or small town in eastern europe. You will see what the poverty is. Poor people usually are normal or even better than the rich.
Poor people have no money for gold rings and neckchains, poor people have no money for drugs. (Of course they drink alcohol often)
It's good idea to send few irish scumbag kids to Poland. They wiouldn't survive a week if they would things like here. Some adult would kick them asses instantly

I agree.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You already did. Also tl;dr.

No longer than previous posts.
But if that's your get-out clause.....

good hope it sticks

Jackus wrote: »

Poor people have no money for gold rings and neckchains, poor people have no money for drugs. (Of course they drink alcohol often)

Really? The Poles here tell me there are heroin addicts back home. An admittedtly skangery gypsy I worked with about 2 years ago occasionally gave me a few tokes of his good quality weed (didnt even know it grew wild in Poland before him tbh, there you go!). And alot of Poles I know like their pills (ecstasy) which apparently are cheaper and at least as widely available as here (though in fairness e`s arent the type of drug that cause most people to go on a stabbing rampage, but just on the drugs point generally)

ojewriej wrote: »

You even need a permit to own a baseball bat in Poland.

In fairness there an awful amount of baseball bats in Belfast compared to the amount of baseball players

Which isnt surprising really. Baseball is beyond boring.