Taxes...where does it go??

vodkababy · 27-02-2008 10:46pm #1

Where does all our taxes go to?? We pay loads of tax for what seems to be nothing.

I recently moved back from the UK where your tax you pay goes on health (which is virtually free), education, bin collection etc. In Ireland, this isn't quite the case. I know you can receive free education. I couldnt believe I have to pay €8 for my bin to be collected.

I pay roughly the same amount of tax here as in the UK. So where is it going to??

How can they have free health care in the UK for the same amount of tax? I work in the healthcare system, which is an absolute disgrace in comparison to where I worked before! The basic nursing care is no different but the lack of services is very much evident.

The amount you have to earn in the UK before you pay the higher scale of tax is £34,600 sterling, in Ireland it's approx €36,000. Why the difference??

miju · 27-02-2008 10:49pm

into a big black hole better known as the various ministers pockets

irish_bob · 28-02-2008 11:00am

vodkababy wrote: »

Where does all our taxes go to?? We pay loads of tax for what seems to be nothing.

I recently moved back from the UK where your tax you pay goes on health (which is virtually free), education, bin collection etc. In Ireland, this isn't quite the case. I know you can receive free education. I couldnt believe I have to pay €8 for my bin to be collected.

I pay roughly the same amount of tax here as in the UK. So where is it going to??

How can they have free health care in the UK for the same amount of tax? I work in the healthcare system, which is an absolute disgrace in comparison to where I worked before! The basic nursing care is no different but the lack of services is very much evident.

The amount you have to earn in the UK before you pay the higher scale of tax is £34,600 sterling, in Ireland it's approx €36,000. Why the difference??

most of it goes towards that inefficent , over paid and underworked collosus which is the public service
no one is ever sacked in the public service so as a result what should be spent on either beds in hospitals or blackboards in schools is spent on wages to surplus pen pushers hidden at the back of a hospital
this will remain the case along as bertie ( best freind of the unions ) aherne remains at the helm , that main wont take the chance of falling out with a single sector of the electorate for fear of the loss of a single vote at election time

duggie-89 · 28-02-2008 2:59pm

irish_bob wrote: »

most of it goes towards that inefficent , over paid and underworked collosus which is the public service
no one is ever sacked in the public service so as a result what should be spent on either beds in hospitals or blackboards in schools is spent on wages to surplus pen pushers hidden at the back of a hospital
this will remain the case along as bertie ( best freind of the unions ) aherne remains at the helm , that main wont take the chance of falling out with a single sector of the electorate for fear of the loss of a single vote at election time

quite true but that should not be the unions fault. its the fact that berite ahern is the highest paid leader of a democratic country. higher than GW bush. for leading a country the size of ireland. also how many junior ministers and various heavly paid posts has he created recently????

way to many. the south has no welfare state what so ever, but thats because of those in power.

El Stuntman · 28-02-2008 3:52pm

duggie-89 wrote: »

way to many. the south has no welfare state what so ever, but thats because of those in power.

interesting perspective duggie but also totally wrong

a read of this may be in order

it compares very favourably with what's on offer in Londonderry, where you live

OTK · 28-02-2008 4:16pm

vodkababy wrote: »

Where does all our taxes go to?? We pay loads of tax for what seems to be nothing.

I recently moved back from the UK where your tax you pay goes on health (which is virtually free), education, bin collection etc. In Ireland, this isn't quite the case. I know you can receive free education. I couldnt believe I have to pay €8 for my bin to be collected.

I pay roughly the same amount of tax here as in the UK. So where is it going to??

How can they have free health care in the UK for the same amount of tax? I work in the healthcare system, which is an absolute disgrace in comparison to where I worked before! The basic nursing care is no different but the lack of services is very much evident.

The amount you have to earn in the UK before you pay the higher scale of tax is £34,600 sterling, in Ireland it's approx €36,000. Why the difference??

Government will spend €54 billion this year. You can see the details here:
http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downloads/Whitepaper08.pdf

Some differences between Ireland and the UK:
higher child benefit and dole in Ireland
Ireland has lower income tax and corporate tax
Council tax in the UK is far higher than bin taxes in Ireland
Health care system in Ireland is well funded but has dire performance - (why?)
Education generally seen as better here than in the UK
Infrastructure worse in Ireland but catching up.
VAT is higher in Ireland (21% vs 17.5%)
Higher alcohol duty in Ireland
Lower fuel duty in Ireland
Higher Car taxes in Ireland
Higher property stamp duty in Ireland
Higher capital gains tax in the UK

Following years of PD-influenced government, income tax is lower in nearly every case in Ireland compared to the UK. Did you find you paid more tax in Ireland for the same salary? I would be surprised

eg sal €40K in Ireland = €7,850 tax approx
sal €40K (£30,158)in the UK = €10,562 tax (£7,963)

Overall Ireland is a lower tax economy than the UK. The UK has been historically a wealthier country than Ireland so we are starting from a lower base when attempting to provide services.

vodkababy · 28-02-2008 10:54pm

Thank you everyone. I feel more enlightened!

sovtek · 29-02-2008 10:31am

OTK wrote: »

Overall Ireland is a lower tax economy than the UK. The UK has been historically a wealthier country than Ireland so we are starting from a lower base when attempting to provide services.

You still get more for your tax in the UK as well as the buying power of your salary in the UK is much stronger. I remember paying bin tax in Temple Bar for the privilege of putting a sack of trash on the sidewalk.
The excuse that Ireland has been "backwards" doesn't really hold water anymore.
You look at some place like Sicily...a historically dirt poor part of Italy...even so the roads are excellent and everything generally works.
Put that with the fact that Ireland has been receiving billions from the EU for decades and the roads are still just as crap and just as deadly. They can't even figure out how to make a train go to the airport!
I think it's time to realize that the people that run things here shouldn't be and are well overpaid for the privilege.

irish_bob · 29-02-2008 11:02am

sovtek wrote: »

You still get more for your tax in the UK as well as the buying power of your salary in the UK is much stronger. I remember paying bin tax in Temple Bar for the privilege of putting a sack of trash on the sidewalk.
The excuse that Ireland has been "backwards" doesn't really hold water anymore.
You look at some place like Sicily...a historically dirt poor part of Italy...even so the roads are excellent and everything generally works.
Put that with the fact that Ireland has been receiving billions from the EU for decades and the roads are still just as crap and just as deadly. They can't even figure out how to make a train go to the airport!
I think it's time to realize that the people that run things here shouldn't be and are well overpaid for the privilege.

kevin myers once wrote , in germany and france and scandinavia while taxes are high , public services are as efficent as services in the private sector

he went on to say the reason for this is , public servants in those countries have a sense of duty

in ireland they have a sense of entitlement

DadaKopf · 29-02-2008 11:45am

irish_bob wrote: »

kevin myers once wrote , in germany and france and scandinavia while taxes are high , public services are as efficent as services in the private sector

he went on to say the reason for this is , public servants in those countries have a sense of duty

in ireland they have a sense of entitlement

I'd agree with that. And I really dislike Kevin Myers. Well, much of the French public sector is quite sclerotic, and unions do slow things down, but trade unionism is also more principled in France.

But there's more to it than just 'duty'. It's also about culture, social cohesion and, critically, the levels of redistribution that takes place. Take Sweden: they put more money into health, education, child-care and elder-care than we do. They have decided to pay for it. We, on the other hand, have decided not to. And our messed up political culture has led to our state being extremely dysfunctional.

You know that, in Sweden (and Scandinavia), local authorities are responsible for delivering health and welfare as well as overseeing policing and other services. People pay local taxes, and councillors are held to account through the democratic process. Because people pay their taxes, they want to make sure they're spent well. And how better to do this, as a citizen, than to be as close as possible to the decisions made?

OTK · 29-02-2008 4:25pm

sovtek wrote: »

You still get more for your tax in the UK as well as the buying power of your salary in the UK is much stronger.

This is subjective. Also some regions are more costly than others in the UK. Living costs in London easily exceed Dublin (although obviously London is a different class of city).

I remember paying bin tax in Temple Bar for the privilege of putting a sack of trash on the sidewalk.

So you should. Irish waste taxes are fairer than in the UK. Here you pay by volume and weight whereas most of the UK still has a flat charge regardless of how much rubbish you produce.

You look at some place like Sicily...a historically dirt poor part of Italy...even so the roads are excellent and everything generally works.

Sicily has been the recipient of Italian aid for decades. Last time I looked it was still awash with corruption on a level that would make Fianna Fail blush and, as a result, an impossible location to site a business.

Put that with the fact that Ireland has been receiving billions from the EU for decades and the roads are still just as crap and just as deadly.

Roads in Ireland have hugely improved in the past decade (maybe you are too young to remember). Annual road deaths have decreased by a quarter since their level 10 years ago, while the number of cars has doubled.

Regional euro aid for Ireland has worked far better than it has in Greece or Portugal or southern italy all of which are now considerably poorer than us.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-02-2008 10:05pm

irish_bob wrote: »

kevin myers once wrote , in germany and france and scandinavia while taxes are high , public services are as efficent as services in the private sector

he went on to say the reason for this is , public servants in those countries have a sense of duty

in ireland they have a sense of entitlement

Perhaps in other countries, public servants are not constantly vilified in fact-free rants in the media? :rolleyes:

If you are stating that the infamous French bureaucracy is efficient, you must be pulling our legs.

irish_bob · 01-03-2008 10:26am

ninja900 wrote: »

Perhaps in other countries, public servants are not constantly vilified in fact-free rants in the media? :rolleyes:

If you are stating that the infamous French bureaucracy is efficient, you must be pulling our legs.

as i once said to my uncle who works in the public service after he maintained that it was the media who making it up about public service inneficency

i dont need the media to tell me that the public service is inneficent

i see it every week in my job

p.s , read mark coleman or alan ruddock if you want the facts about our public service and dont point to the fact that they work for the sindo, neither of those are eoghan harris type bertie loving bufoons

Hotblack Desiato · 01-03-2008 10:44am

irish_bob wrote: »

as i once said to my uncle who works in the public service after he maintained that it was the media who making it up about public service inneficency

i dont need the media to tell me that the public service is inneficent

i see it every week in my job

Define inefficient. It's inefficient not to be able to look up suppliers on the net, pick the cheapest one and buy online. But the cumbersome EU procurement rules are in place to deter corruption and to be seen to deter corruption, overall we would probably be worse off if they weren't there. That's just one example. Many many more are down to idiotic political decisions like decentralisation designed to buy lobby group votes.

p.s , read mark coleman or alan ruddock if you want the facts about our public service

Oh right so I should throw away first hand knowledge and go off and read the Sindo. Suuuure.

sovtek · 03-03-2008 3:28pm

OTK wrote: »

This is subjective. Also some regions are more costly than others in the UK. Living costs in London easily exceed Dublin (although obviously London is a different class of city).

Some living cost in London exceed Dublin...and as you said it's a different class of city.

So you should. Irish waste taxes are fairer than in the UK. Here you pay by volume and weight whereas most of the UK still has a flat charge regardless of how much rubbish you produce.

No I should not have to pay bin charges when I don't have a bin much less a recycling one.

Sicily has been the recipient of Italian aid for decades. Last time I looked it was still awash with corruption on a level that would make Fianna Fail blush and, as a result, an impossible location to site a business.

What country do you think Sicily is in? Even if it's corrupt its still able to build proper infrastructure. My point being that Ireland is still run like a third world backwater.

Regional euro aid for Ireland has worked far better than it has in Greece or Portugal or southern italy all of which are now considerably poorer than us.

No it hasn't. I drove through the south of Italy last year and the infrastructure there is far superior to Ireland. Portugal included.

Fratton Fred · 03-03-2008 3:44pm

I think the corporation tax is a huge one. 12% is very low but one of the reasons the big US multinationals are here. I believe there is also some tax dodge to do with copyrighted materials, which apply to software and, up until recently, the proceeds of horse breeding was tax free (Now you know how John Magnier and JP Mcmanus became so wealthy).

I was the same when I moved here, where does all the money go. The state gets education provided by the church, the roads and public transport by the EU and ireland has a tiny military in comparison with other european countries, but, as has been said earlier, there are very low taxes, if you are a business or very wealthy (I heard that the top 200 earners in Ireland paid just 5% tax in 2006), possibly too low to be sustained, but increasing them is dangerous, in that if you hike up the taxes, all the American companies may clear off and finally kill off the Celtic tiger.

I believe something needs to change otherwise the country could fall on it's arse, but I don't think that change will come with this particular government who, it seems, are only interested in lining their and their rich friends pockets.

Oh yeah, someone needs to grow some balls and tackle the public servants as well.

duggie-89 · 03-03-2008 9:54pm

El Stuntman wrote: »

interesting perspective duggie but also totally wrong

a read of this may be in order

it compares very favourably with what's on offer in Londonderry, where you live

why thank you for your reading material i will dive into it soon and point taken.

also on the note, i am afriad you may have me mixed up with someone else i live in Derry. maybe i will PM u map that hasn't got "property of britan posted all over it"

Hotblack Desiato · 04-03-2008 3:07pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was the same when I moved here, where does all the money go. The state gets education provided by the church

No, it doesn't, taxpayers pay for it (and parents pay more on top 'voluntarily'.)

the roads and public transport by the EU

Balderdash.
The EU did provide some (not all) funding for road and rail capital expenditure, and maybe a few buses too, but very little if any now that we are no longer a poor nation.
AFAIK, the EU never provided money to go towards public transport running costs.

but, as has been said earlier, there are very low taxes

Certain taxes are low. Our VAT rate is high, for instance, and applies to a lot of things which are VAT exempt in other EU countries.

Oh yeah, someone needs to grow some balls and tackle the public servants as well.

Do go on... just saying 'something needs to be done' isn't good enough.

Fratton Fred · 04-03-2008 3:42pm

ninja900 wrote: »

No, it doesn't, taxpayers pay for it (and parents pay more on top 'voluntarily'.)

oh, then how come the Catholic Church have such a big say in who can and can't go to one of their schools?

ninja900 wrote: »

Balderdash.
The EU did provide some (not all) funding for road and rail capital expenditure, and maybe a few buses too, but very little if any now that we are no longer a poor nation.
AFAIK, the EU never provided money to go towards public transport running costs.

ok, maybe not al, but €54bn builds a lot of roads (and tunnels and trams)

ninja900 wrote: »

Certain taxes are low. Our VAT rate is high, for instance, and applies to a lot of things which are VAT exempt in other EU countries.

yes, VAT is high, but 12% corporation tax is very low and is where most countries get the majority of their revenue from outside of income tax. Also the 21% rate does not apply accross the board, there are lower rates and a lot of things that are VAT exempt.

ninja900 wrote: »

Do go on... just saying 'something needs to be done' isn't good enough.

ok, performance bonuses not linked to performance, over staffing, jobs for life, final salery pension schemes, 35 hour week, one hour a week to do your banking!?! jesus they even get more bank holidays than everyone else These things that aren't evident in a normal job so why do public servants get them. Add the fact that a disproportionate number of people are employed by the state and you have a huge drain on the economy.

edanto · 05-03-2008 1:26pm

Well at least our shower aren't spending a few TRILLION on a war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/opinion/04herbert.html

But it does seem like our guys waste a lot of money, things like PPPs seem to be very bad value long term.

El Stuntman · 05-03-2008 2:16pm

duggie-89 wrote: »

why thank you for your reading material i will dive into it soon and point taken.

also on the note, i am afriad you may have me mixed up with someone else i live in Derry. maybe i will PM u map that hasn't got "property of britan posted all over it"

I just took google maps to be a fairly informed source

Londonderry it is!

Hotblack Desiato · 05-03-2008 3:21pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh, then how come the Catholic Church have such a big say in who can and can't go to one of their schools?

An excellent question for your local TD. The taxpayer pays for running costs, teacher salaries, and usually building costs too, but doesn't control the schools - it's wrong.

ok, performance bonuses not linked to performance

Very very few public servants are in any sort of a bonus scheme. The scheme you're talking about affects probably 100 people in the State.

over staffing

Cite please. Many areas such as asylum applications are the subject of frequent complaints on boards that they are under staffed. In any large private sector organisation you will get areas that are over or under staffed at a particular time.
Incidentally, decentralisation makes this worse by making it harder to transfer people between organisations when the workload changes.

jobs for life

Not actually true, any public servant can be sacked with cause, in fact any civil servant can be sacked without cause at the whim of the Minister for Finance. The only reason that redundancies are rare in the public sector is that the Department of Finance is unwilling to sanction redundancy payments.

final salery pension schemes

By no means exclusive to the public sector. Just because some employers are in a race to the bottom to treat their employees like dirt, doesn't mean that all others should join in. Join a union and campaign for a better pension...

35 hour week

The problem with a 35 hour week is that it comes with a 35 hour pay packet. Many public servants would like the chance to supplement their income with overtime etc. Some do work crazy hours. That's not a good idea imho no matter who your employer is.

one hour a week to do your banking!?!

Myth. Half an hour a fortnight (most public servants are paid fortnightly) and it was abolished for new entrants a few years ago.

jesus they even get more bank holidays than everyone else

Big deal, one day at Xmas, one at Easter and Good Friday off (which the banks etc. give anyway.)
Many private sector businesses have longer holidays over Christmas than the public sector does.

These things that aren't evident in a normal job so why do public servants get them.

It's funny how the people who say there is no point in joining a union also claim there are massive benefits in working in the (highly unionised) public sector. If you want better working conditions, join a union. There's nothing stopping you from getting a public sector job, either, if you think it's so great.

Add the fact that a disproportionate number of people are employed by the state and you have a huge drain on the economy.

Cite please. It's a hell of a lot less than it is in NI, for starters.

Auditor #9 · 06-03-2008 2:21am

It's a good question where the money goes and what we spend it on ... I'd like to see the receipts for everything regarding government expenditure maybe done out in a database or spreadsheet - a database would be better because I'd imagine a fair amount of it goes down the drain - if it was getting pocketed it might at least stay in the country. (in theory)

And how much duplication happens does anyone know?

lostexpectation · 06-03-2008 4:12am

an interesting thing re the debate about immigration is the complaint about local public services being overwhelmed, but these immigrants are paying taxes on their wages, so these taxes should filter back down to the local authorities where these been a cluster of immigration but somehow they don't, so where do these taxes go.

partholon · 06-03-2008 2:11pm

which highlights one of the fundemental flaws with unregulated immegration.

how the hell do you plan for anything if you dont know what your town/city's demographic is gonna be one year to the next? you could get all the money you need, it takes time to build schools and hospitals and even then youve no guarentee that next year the place wont be deserted because the immegrants went home.

its certainly an interesting problem

lostexpectation · 06-03-2008 4:19pm

well the reports I saw on the particular problem didn't seem to suggest any extra taxes were filtering back to where the extra workers are, more a prob with distribution of revenue me thinks, and look today ahern is meeting the families of the fire brigade men who died in bray, neither local nor national taxes can seem to provide a fire bridgade service for towns??? that's crazy

guinnessdrinker · 06-03-2008 4:36pm

lostexpectation wrote: »

well the reports I saw on the particular problem didn't seem to suggest any extra taxes were filtering back to where the extra workers are, more a prob with distribution of revenue me thinks, and look today ahern is meeting the families of the fire brigade men who died in bray, neither local nor national taxes can seem to provide a fire bridgade service for towns??? that's crazy

Reference extra taxes filtering back to extra workers. In a lot of cases the extra workers are working part time so they are not earning enough money to pay taxes in the first place. The government needs to help create more full time jobs if they wish to increase their revenue from income taxation.

meditraitor · 06-03-2008 4:41pm

irish_bob wrote: »

most of it goes towards that inefficent , over paid and underworked collosus which is the public service
no one is ever sacked in the public service so as a result what should be spent on either beds in hospitals or blackboards in schools is spent on wages to surplus pen pushers hidden at the back of a hospital
this will remain the case along as bertie ( best freind of the unions ) aherne remains at the helm , that main wont take the chance of falling out with a single sector of the electorate for fear of the loss of a single vote at election time

+1

Auditor #9 · 06-03-2008 5:27pm

partholon wrote: »

which highlights one of the fundemental flaws with unregulated immegration.

how the hell do you plan for anything if you dont know what your town/city's demographic is gonna be one year to the next? you could get all the money you need, it takes time to build schools and hospitals and even then youve no guarentee that next year the place wont be deserted because the immegrants went home.

its certainly an interesting problem

Taoiseachs of the future will have to try to reign in public spending like nobody's business.

You have to ask yourself the question: would you be able to do that if you were the future taoiseach of Ireland? You'd have to deal with the unions big style. No wonder the PDs got a rake of support after Haughey gave the Civil Service all the bonuses they could take back in the eighties.

Fratton Fred · 06-03-2008 5:56pm

ninja900 wrote: »

An excellent question for your local TD. The taxpayer pays for running costs, teacher salaries, and usually building costs too, but doesn't control the schools - it's wrong.

maybe I will, but she is the minister for education so I'm not sure she'll give me too straight an answer:p

ninja900 wrote: »

Very very few public servants are in any sort of a bonus scheme. The scheme you're talking about affects probably 100 people in the State.
Cite please. Many areas such as asylum applications are the subject of frequent complaints on boards that they are under staffed. In any large private sector organisation you will get areas that are over or under staffed at a particular time.
Incidentally, decentralisation makes this worse by making it harder to transfer people between organisations when the workload changes.
Not actually true, any public servant can be sacked with cause, in fact any civil servant can be sacked without cause at the whim of the Minister for Finance. The only reason that redundancies are rare in the public sector is that the Department of Finance is unwilling to sanction redundancy payments.
By no means exclusive to the public sector. Just because some employers are in a race to the bottom to treat their employees like dirt, doesn't mean that all others should join in. Join a union and campaign for a better pension...
The problem with a 35 hour week is that it comes with a 35 hour pay packet. Many public servants would like the chance to supplement their income with overtime etc. Some do work crazy hours. That's not a good idea imho no matter who your employer is.
Myth. Half an hour a fortnight (most public servants are paid fortnightly) and it was abolished for new entrants a few years ago.
Big deal, one day at Xmas, one at Easter and Good Friday off (which the banks etc. give anyway.)
Many private sector businesses have longer holidays over Christmas than the public sector does.
It's funny how the people who say there is no point in joining a union also claim there are massive benefits in working in the (highly unionised) public sector. If you want better working conditions, join a union. There's nothing stopping you from getting a public sector job, either, if you think it's so great.
Cite please. It's a hell of a lot less than it is in NI, for starters.

I have relatives in the public service and the things they have to do because of inefficiencies is amazing. There are also many they moan about who get in late, leave early and have an hour and a half lunch break. I have had a lot of dealings with state bodies over the past 12 months, moving here, reregistering cars, starting up a business and every person I talk moans that they are short staffed due to illness, from what I can gather Government bodies must be very unhealthy places to work, or someone is swinging the lead.

Comparing the numbers to those in NI isn't really a true comparison either, becuase the British government moved a lot of jobs over there as part of their decentralisation. The same problems are evident there by the way, you only have to look at the level of redundancies to see what they are doing about it.

The big difference there though, is that, for example, an admin worker puts a disc in an envelope and posts it, it goes missing and the head of the service resigns. Here, there is a huge cock up over breast screening that could cost people their lives and everyone shrinks back into the shadows denying responsibility.

The money musy be going somewhere and the Public servants seem to be number one suspect, if not point us in the right direction.

lostexpectation · 06-03-2008 6:32pm

I've yet to be convinced the the private sector isn't as inefficient/lazy, anyway we're talking about taxes

Taxes...where does it go??

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