Taxes...where does it go??

Hotblack Desiato

lostexpectation wrote: »

an interesting thing re the debate about immigration is the complaint about local public services being overwhelmed

Which local services - water supply? bin collection? sewerage?
I think you mean education - which has got nothing to do with local authorities.

but these immigrants are paying taxes on their wages, so these taxes should filter back down to the local authorities where these been a cluster of immigration but somehow they don't, so where do these taxes go.

We don't have local income tax so a larger population in an area doesn't mean any more income for the local authority, except for a few more bin tags bought and a few more cars taxed.

Local authorities are exactly where central government wants them - with few sources of income and very little power, except to do stuff like open dumps which central government wants nothing to do with because of the NIMBY factor.

Hotblack Desiato

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I have relatives in the public service and the things they have to do because of inefficiencies is amazing.

I have lots of relatives and friends in the private sector and...

How about the 'high flying' financial sector? You'd think they'd know how not to pour money down the drain? One of my wife's supervisors spends most of his time making phone calls on behalf of his rugby club. Another is, according to everyone working under him, a right eejit and lazy into the bargain but he's just been promoted - again. A friend left to take up a promotion (high five figures salary) in a major international investment bank. They had no work for her to do whatsoever and when she left for another job after 3 months, had never given her a single thing to do.

There are also many they moan about who get in late, leave early and have an hour and a half lunch break.

Believe me, I hear about plenty of this in the private sector.
Someone on flexitime in the public sector might seem to have it great, but if they take a long lunch one day they will have to make up that time sooner or later. Whereas in the private sector, few have to clock in or out except on a factory floor.

I have had a lot of dealings with state bodies over the past 12 months, moving here

May I ask, where from? If their public sector is so efficient and ours is so bad, why come here?

reregistering cars, starting up a business and every person I talk moans that they are short staffed due to illness, from what I can gather Government bodies must be very unhealthy places to work, or someone is swinging the lead.

Or the recruitment freeze means that staff numbers haven't kept pace with the increase in car and company registrations over the last few years. Seems to me you have your hypothesis and are making the data fit it...

Comparing the numbers to those in NI isn't really a true comparison either, becuase the British government moved a lot of jobs over there as part of their decentralisation.

What central UK government jobs were moved over? I don't know of any.
E.g. if you live in say Birmingham, will you have to apply to Department of Something in NI? I really really doubt that.

The big difference there though, is that, for example, an admin worker puts a disc in an envelope and posts it, it goes missing and the head of the service resigns.

Some guy near retirement falling on his sword changes nothing. And perhaps you should give our authorities credit for not screwing up like the UK have done?

Here, there is a huge cock up over breast screening that could cost people their lives and everyone shrinks back into the shadows denying responsibility.

Perhaps there is another thread on this - it is a complex issue and simplistic tabloid-style "HARNEY OUT" "DRUMM OUT" stuff will solve nothing.

The money musy be going somewhere and the Public servants seem to be number one suspect, if not point us in the right direction.

Ridiculous political decisions like Official Languages Act, e-voting, decentralisation shambles, Western Rail Corridor, subsidised airfields dotted all along the west coast, etc. would be good places to start. All of these would be Cabinet decisions not those of civil servants (who would have opposed most if not all of these.)

partholon

lostexpectation wrote: »

I've yet to be convinced the the private sector isn't as inefficient/lazy, anyway we're talking about taxes

private sector business that are lazy and inefficient go out of business.

its the corrupt abusive ones who'd divy up the spoils amongst their directors and brutalise anyone that gets in their way i'd be worried about.

private sector practically breeds these fcukers. just look at any tribunal before berties current crop came around.

sovtek

partholon wrote: »

which highlights one of the fundemental flaws with unregulated immegration.

Where is this mythical country where there is unregulated immigration?

Raintonite

I can tell you where a cool million went last year. One lucky lottery land owner got a million for selling a corner plot for the PortLoaise roundabout. Their biggest complaint is that the property market has stalled and they don't know what to do with the windfall. I'm willing to bet a penny to the pound that Ireland has the highest per capita transfer of tax Euros to private infrastuctural companies in the world. The newest guise is affordable housing whereby the government is tunneling several hundred million to struggling construction companies. It so nice to having a caring government.

meditraitor

lostexpectation wrote: »

I've yet to be convinced the the private sector isn't as inefficient/lazy, anyway we're talking about taxes

Maybe I read this wrong, but it doesnt make sense to me>>>
Any private sector companies that are innefective and lazy go out of business very quickly!

Fratton Fred

ninja900 wrote: »

I have lots of relatives and friends in the private sector and...

How about the 'high flying' financial sector? You'd think they'd know how not to pour money down the drain? One of my wife's supervisors spends most of his time making phone calls on behalf of his rugby club. Another is, according to everyone working under him, a right eejit and lazy into the bargain but he's just been promoted - again. A friend left to take up a promotion (high five figures salary) in a major international investment bank. They had no work for her to do whatsoever and when she left for another job after 3 months, had never given her a single thing to do.


Believe me, I hear about plenty of this in the private sector.
Someone on flexitime in the public sector might seem to have it great, but if they take a long lunch one day they will have to make up that time sooner or later. Whereas in the private sector, few have to clock in or out except on a factory floor.

I totally agree, where I am working today 3/4 of the company are "Working From Home", they must be very busy though as everyone I have tried ringing can't answer the phone:rolleyes:

My taxes aren't paying their wages though and their ineffieciency is not diverting funds from Schools and Hospitals.

ninja900 wrote: »

May I ask, where from? If their public sector is so efficient and ours is so bad, why come here?

I have recently moved over from the UK and apologies if I have given the impression it is better there, it is not and the same problems seem to exist. The unions aren't so powerful though and something is being done about it. I moved here because my wife was homesick and to take advantage of what I consider a better education. My kids learn mainly English with a bit of Irish here, rather than Erdu and Punjabi with a bit of English spken where possible:rolleyes:

ninja900 wrote: »

Or the recruitment freeze means that staff numbers haven't kept pace with the increase in car and company registrations over the last few years. Seems to me you have your hypothesis and are making the data fit it...
What central UK government jobs were moved over? I don't know of any.
E.g. if you live in say Birmingham, will you have to apply to Department of Something in NI? I really really doubt that.

You may be right, I have a dim view of public servants. My ex wife was a civil servant. There were around 1000 people in her sector, of which 200 looked after the duties the sector required them to do, the other 800 looked after the 200:rolleyes:

A bit on Northern Ireland. My understanding is that a lot of jobs have been moved out of london with a lot going to NI

http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/iam/cs_policy/diversity/nireland.asp

ninja900 wrote: »

Some guy near retirement falling on his sword changes nothing. And perhaps you should give our authorities credit for not screwing up like the UK have done?

Perhaps there is another thread on this - it is a complex issue and simplistic tabloid-style "HARNEY OUT" "DRUMM OUT" stuff will solve nothing.

Maybe not, but at the moment there seems to be no accountability. Why bother doing your job well if you are never going to be held accountable for anything.

ninja900 wrote: »

Ridiculous political decisions like Official Languages Act, e-voting, decentralisation shambles, Western Rail Corridor, subsidised airfields dotted all along the west coast, etc. would be good places to start. All of these would be Cabinet decisions not those of civil servants (who would have opposed most if not all of these.)

That's an area of politics I'm not going to get into. It does appear that a lot of money is spent in public consultations and tribunals though.

partholon

sovtek wrote: »

Where is this mythical country where there is unregulated immigration?

here. EU citizen? come on in. theres nothing to stop the entire population of poland coming over here if they want to. could you see america throwing the doors open to ten other countries, no strings attached, no chance.

or are you still peddling the gov line before NICE where we were only supposed to get 10 thousand people coming over from eastern europe at most ?

guinnessdrinker

But the economy needs immigrants to come in.

Auditor #9

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

But the economy needs immigrants to come in.

And a certain number should be very welcome. Some of these polish people are mechanics for example and if you've been to a shop with your car recently you'll see where a chunk of your own taxes are going!

partholon

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

But the economy needs immigrants to come in.

which was why it was done with no regards to the social impact on local amenities.

the gov didnt give a toss about the increase in demand on schools, fire and police stations, water supply, refuse collection etc.

they just wanted the tax revenue the introduction of a defacto slave labour work force would accrue them through all the business's that were dying to take advantage of em, who co incidently fund their parties. i mean dont you think its weird all these very well educated college graduates are serving lattes here?

im not against immegration, it was just that it was done in such a reckless manner to facilitate business. immegrants for instance are pretty much the only thing keeping the rental sector from imploding. its not just to protect jobs that virtually all the other countries in europe used their derregation in NICE to restrict immegration for 2 yrs. its to get the infrastructure ready.

in fairness to gov they ARE getting their act together. look at adamstown. when you consider the mess thats been made of lucan (practically tallaght mark two. i mean FIVE YEARS of a waiting list to get your kid in the local school? FFS!) its good to see lessons were learned

guinnessdrinker

partholon wrote: »

im not against immegration, it was just that it was done in a reckless manner to facilitate business. immegrants for instance are pretty much the only thing keeping the rental sector from imploding. its not just to protect jobs that virtually all the other countries in europe used their derregation in NICE to restrict immegration for 2 yrs. its to get the infrastructure ready.

I take your point. I heard Bertie Ahearn say a while ago words to the effect that it's a pity some of the other member states were not as accommodating to immigrants as Ireland was. I'm beginninig to think the gov realise that they may have made a mistake in not using their deregulation on Nice. Also I think if they make changes now to immigration control, they feel they will look like hypocrites.

partholon

I agree.

we struck a deal with these other countries so we should honor it. beside i think the worst is over. now that the economys slowing down the mad rush has abated and we're getting normal figures now. plus, even though its hard to see sometimes, we have built a hell of alot of new infrastructure in the last couple of years.

i cant help thinking the other countries were looking at us to gauge what they think'll happen to them. hopefully they learned from our mistakes.

sovtek

partholon wrote: »

here. EU citizen? come on in. theres nothing to stop the entire population of poland coming over here if they want to. could you see america throwing the doors open to ten other countries, no strings attached, no chance.

How many Irish came to America and look what happened!!

If you want to compare it with America then it would be like asking "what if loads of people moved from one state to another?" answer...not much. It's unconstitutional to restrict movement amongst the states nor are you required to register you're movement.
I have a beautiful Polish housemate and I can tell you one effect it will have on Ireland...better gene pool.

By the same virtue you are welcomed to go anywhere else in the EU. Should all Irish people be confined to Ireland for two years as well? Should you also give all that money they gave you back?

oscarBravo

Polite note: this isn't an immigration thread.

partholon

you asked me where the unregulated immegration was coming from and i told you.

stop trying to change the subject and deal with it. hundreds of thousands of people came into the country , despite claims from the government that that wouldnt happen, and it couldnt handle it because the infrastracture wasnt there.

its disingenuous to compare a state to another state in america. if you want to use an example tell me how many mexicans would shift over if THEY got unregulated accesss to the states. scratch that, THREE states.

answer. fcuking loads! and all concentrating in those three states, you dont need to be a genius to see that. its not a race issue, its logistical one.


i have no problem with regulated immegration. but what we did after NICE was dumb. it completly distorted several markets and its biting us in the arse now in terms of social amenities being stretched to breaking point. going back to my adamstown analogy you can see that adamstown is designed to put the infrastructure in at a phased development to keep up with the population. hitting markers as it went along. if 200 thousand people turned up on its doorstep tomorrow the whole plan would collapse as you simple cant plan for something of that magnitude.

getting back to the OP thats where our taxes are going. trying to get the country up to speed. roads and all are very good but we need massive investement in police, medical and teaching and various other publics services. i mean theres a million plus more people in the country now.

oscarBravo

Did I stutter?

lostexpectation

meditraitor wrote: »

Maybe I read this wrong, but it doesnt make sense to me>>>
Any private sector companies that are innefective and lazy go out of business very quickly!

I worked in one that was doing pretty well for itself, as long as the market is expanding and they make profits. keeps them afloat, anyway public sector can't got out of business, so you can't judge it like a private sector, there's no comparison.

im more worried about the govs allocation of taxes then what happens to them when they get where there put

Hotblack Desiato

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My kids learn mainly English with a bit of Irish here, rather than Erdu and Punjabi with a bit of English spken where possible:rolleyes:

I'd rather the people from other countries who have problems with immigration wouldn't come over here hoping to find some sort of white bastion.

You may be right, I have a dim view of public servants. My ex wife was a civil servant.

Perhaps that colours your thinking a bit. And however good or bad the UK civil service is, it's not the subject of this thread.

A bit on Northern Ireland. My understanding is that a lot of jobs have been moved out of london with a lot going to NI http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/iam/cs_policy/diversity/nireland.asp

Well of course HM Revenue & Customs, Immigration Service, etc. have jobs in NI, just as they have a presence elsewhere in the UK (more so in NI in some cases, as it's the only UK land border.)

Maybe not, but at the moment there seems to be no accountability. Why bother doing your job well if you are never going to be held accountable for anything.

Accountability is needed, but what we have at the moment is tabloid hysteria which is no good either.

That's an area of politics I'm not going to get into.

Seems to me that that is the nub of this thread - where our taxes are going - they're going to the areas the Cabinet decides they go to, good bad or indifferent.