the two Polish guy's that got stabbed

Grid. · 02-03-2008 05:31PM

F**kin horrendous, I'm ashamed to say I come from this place!! My sincere sympathy to their families, yet another stabbing in Moyross yesterday!!

raemie21 · 02-03-2008 09:57PM

Ryaller wrote: »

What are you trying to get at? What's the bigger picture? Two innocent people are now dead. Murdered with a screwdriver. And you find a suggestion of life imprisonment ridiculous? A "wild statement" no less! What would you prescribe? A role-playing session on how "knives-are-bad" with pizza for afters?
I didn't mention torture, but now that you brought it up..
I could honestly care less that there's nothing out there for these parasites. Your life's sh1t? Boo hoo. Everyone's life is. Learn something. Educate yourself. You might be able to crawl out of that hole you've been born into. Whoever did this should be locked up for life. End of discussion.

I will anyway.

Oh, and kudos for calling me on my silver spoon middle-class upbringing - It's like you've pointed a mirror into my very soul. I feel so small.

Yes I do find the suggestion of life imprisonment ridiculous. I don't have all the answers, obviously this crime was particularly vicious but if you would like some idea of the bigger picture, here goes:

Recent research carried out with young juvenile offenders found that 83% of them met the criteria for at least one psychiatric disorder. And yes this research was carried out here - Dublin, and published only last year. Considering that 16.5% of the general population are thought to have a psychiatric disorder, this is obviously an extremely high figure. Also, it was found that the offenders were likely to have not one, but over three different disorders on average - these aren't just random labels, they are serious mental health disorders that reach diagnostic criteria set by the American Pychiatric Association e.g. generalised anxiety disorder, mania/hypomania, conduct disorder, social phobia, substance abuse disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, separation anxiety disorder.
So call them 'evil' or 'vermin' as you say but I like to take the idea of mental illness seriously.

In the same study, it was found that 20% the offenders had IQs in the intellectual disability range. Again, considering that 2-3% of the general population have an intellectual disability, this is an extremely high figure in comparison.
So going back to your point about sitting down and reading a book if they're bored or simply 'learning something' and 'educating themselves', these kids are not able to and probably struggled with whatever time they did spend in school before dropping out asap.

I presume that you were being patronising with your suggestion of roleplaying with knives so I won't expand on the bigger picture for rehabilitation. But just to put it out there, young offenders again have shown to struggle with emotional intelligence - having a reduced capacity to accurately identify emotions in themselves and others, reduced ability to use emotions to guide & to prioritise thinking processes. So yes, a full and ideal rehabiliation programme would include multidisciplinary involvement with social work, psychology, speech and langauge therapy, clinical nurse specialism and psychiatry.

Yes, this was an awful crime and has got us all thinking as the OP pointed out. However, that's no reason for people to come out with some of the stuff I've heard over the past few days and the whole 'put them in a cell and bury the key' is all a bit dated and merely a vague and ill thought notion about a much bigger problem. I'm almost shaking as I type this reply because it makes me so angry sometimes that people have no empathy or desire to understand what might be going on for these teenagers. Yeah I'm a happy 22year old, great job, car and enjoy my gigs & travelling but I'm aware of what else is out there. If you had a collection of family problems, mental health difficulties, intellectual disabilty, lowered abililty to read others - would you be able to simply 'crawl out of the hole that you were born into to?' Don't think so, few do.

Obviously I don't want to be confronted by a gang of teens either and I hate reading about these crimes but there's such a massive need out there for services, people on the ground trying to prevent these things rather than waiting for them to happen.

So Ryanall, if you would like a reference for the study I've used here or further reading to expand your knowledge, PM me.
And can I also point out that it was you who introduced the idea of 'being hugged as a child' as the social upbringing piece so I was merely putting it back on you with the hope that you would see how silly it sounded.

tampopo · 02-03-2008 11:10PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Does anybody know if the vigil went ahead as planned by a local councillor in the area??

yeah, and attended by an MEP and at least one TD.

Guards directing traffic. Had a little chuckle at that one!!!

dRNk SAnTA · 03-03-2008 02:40AM

I'd just like to say that while we're all angry and shocked at this incident, what are we going to to do to prevent it from happening again? I haven't heard any politician suggest that our system dealing with juvenile offenders should improved, or policing improved, or education or anything.

When was the last time any of these areas had serious reform? You'd think it was all working brilliantly from the way the government goes on. I guess the very fact that Bertie is still in government says something about the level of ****e we're willing to put with.

I'll tell you what, the type of person who commits a crime like this doesn't deserve a second chance. I don't ever want to see him out of prison.

kravmaga · 03-03-2008 03:40AM

teetotaller wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/absence-of-gardai-root-of-savage-stab-deaths-1303671.html

It is an article about that what happened and about people's reaction yesterday evening.

I didn't know details earlier, but I read shocking information, that one of lads was hit into his throat with screwdriver, and second polish man had scredriver inside his brain..............

as many of you said earlier - irish law in relation to youths is stupid. youngsters can do everything and they are not responsible for anything.

I live here 3,5 years at the moment and so far it happened only twice that I had problems with young feckers

I'm quite tall and well builtbut few - 12- 14 years old weren't afraid to throw petards into my direction. ( one exploded on my back and I had to put my jacket to the bin ) as I was told later by my irish friends if I would like to stop and hold underage fecker I could have problems with gardais that I'm making an offence to underage person...............

Another time some feckers were throwing stones to the cars staying in the traffic. they were behind huge wall, so nobody saw them and they were just having fun hearing stones hitting cars body....

My car got twice......... one driver stopped gardai on the bike said to him what happened and gardai shrugged his arms and went away.....

I read the article my friend, but the POLICE cannot be blamed 100%, this is just pure evil what happened, these out of control kids are nasty.

As I said in a previous post on this forum, where are the parents of all these kids hanging around the shops, the locals know who the ring leaders are , they said he is always in trouble, but afraid to stand up to these nasty kids.

Not fair either blaming it on other elements from Inchicore or town.

This is going to lead to Vigilantes taking over again like what happened in tallaght many yrs back.

I know a file has been sent to DPP, can you believe these murderers are still walking the streets, it takes the breath away.

darkman2 · 03-03-2008 03:48AM

What would sort this out overnight is

a: Automatic life sentence for Murder

b: Parents to get jail sentences if their Children constantly act like thugs

Simple - problem sorted.

promethius · 03-03-2008 06:08AM

Simple - problem sorted.

+1 now all we need is a politician with the balls to get the necessary legislation sorted.... sh1t, plan aborted.

RIP to these men and a curse on the houses of all of those invovled in murdering them.

The Sweeper · 03-03-2008 08:30AM

raemie21 wrote: »

Obviously I don't want to be confronted by a gang of teens either and I hate reading about these crimes but there's such a massive need out there for services, people on the ground trying to prevent these things rather than waiting for them to happen.

It seems to be a very Irish thing to blame the entirety of society at large for the fertile ground that nourishes a potential crime, as though that society is some sort of random third party.

It's the "someone needs to do something about this!" effect.

People need to want to take responsibility for change themselves - so before we provide the mental health services, the family support units, the foster care networks, the agencies to care for difficult children from a young age to stop them from turning into murderous teenagers, the social workers, the buildings, the networks, the infrastructure, we need people.

We need people who look at those boys and think "Jesus, that's terrible. That's so terrible, I wish there was something I could do to prevent it from happening. How can I help? Can I provide my time? My money? Can I help out at an agency? Further, can I look at studying for a career where I, me, me fein, this person here, becomes the buffer between the dangerous potential and the tragic future?" But people don't think that. People think "Lock them up and throw away the key. Them AND their parents."

Punishing the parents of teenagers like that is pointless. They're already useless failures - look at their progeny. Punishing them is like bombing Afghanistan - it's pointless. It teaches nobody anything.

You will not achieve effective prevention through the use of barbaric deterrents.

SimpleSam06 · 03-03-2008 08:32AM

raemie21 wrote: »

generalised anxiety disorder, mania/hypomania, conduct disorder, social phobia, substance abuse disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, separation anxiety disorder.

Generalised what now? Seperation anxiety disorder? Just because the Americans like to categorise every facial twitch as a new psychosis requiring the flavour of the month in expensive dopamine byproducts doesn't mean we have to suck from the same teat.

raemie21 wrote: »

In the same study, it was found that 20% the offenders had IQs in the intellectual disability range. Again, considering that 2-3% of the general population have an intellectual disability, this is an extremely high figure in comparison.

This merely underlines the well established fact that IQ tests are a very good measurement of one thing - the ability to take IQ tests. As a measurement of functional intelligence they are specious at best and culturally not applicable (which is why for example many African cultures don't do well on standardised IQ tests - their culture doesn't value the same traits of intelligence; this does not make them stupid, just different).

raemie21 wrote: »

So going back to your point about sitting down and reading a book if they're bored or simply 'learning something' and 'educating themselves', these kids are not able to

And right here is where I have to stop you. These people are not genetically different to their parents or other people in their communities, there is nothing physically stopping them from learning. They are as capable of change and adaptation as the next man or woman. Handwaving "its not their fault" is the wrong tack to take. Yes they need help but they have to take full responsibility for their actions, something sorely lacking in the increasingly responsibility-averse society in which we find ourselves.

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You will not achieve effective prevention through the use of barbaric deterrents.

Yes but for want of a better solution, it is good for a laugh.

Sir Oxman · 03-03-2008 01:27PM

As an aside, just took the lift down in my apt block and some 'bright spark' has gone to the trouble of getting a stamper made up and plastered the inside of said lift with:

"SuperValu screwdrivers on sale - Polish Discount"

This follows on from previous 'stampers' with "Polish Sc*m F*** Off" and "Blood & Honour.org" stickers.

Licences for dogs are compulsory, I swear to God it should be the same for having kids.

duff365 · 03-03-2008 07:33PM

It was a truly horrible thing that happened and my sympathies are with their families.
I would just like to give my 2 cents.
Would this have happened if it was two irish lads? I don't think so.
If the courts decide to sentence all of the scumbags involved to some time in prison; will this change them? I don't think so.

Is it such a bad idea to have a death sentence for murder?
In my opinion there is no point to send these scumbags to prison for a short time or a long time, why should the taxpayer have to pay to keep these people fed and warm. Waste of money.

13, 14, 15, 16, i would not care. If they think they are man enough to carry a knife and use it they should be prepared for the consequences.

Collie D · 03-03-2008 07:45PM

duff365 wrote: »

Would this have happened if it was two irish lads? I don't think so.

Explain.....

kravmaga · 03-03-2008 07:50PM

I see a teenage girl has been the latest arrest today, apparently she was involved in the original altercation outside shop with the Polish guys. See

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0303/drimnagh.html?RTEMAILIDink

duff365 · 03-03-2008 07:51PM

If they had asked two irish lads in their mid twenties to buy beer for them and the two lads refused do you think anything would have happened. I don't. Thats what i meant.

Collie D · 03-03-2008 08:30PM

duff365 wrote: »

If they had asked two irish lads in their mid twenties to buy beer for them and the two lads refused do you think anything would have happened. I don't. Thats what i meant.

That's your opinion...we'll never know the answer to that

duff365 · 03-03-2008 08:35PM

True. But you would have to agree that foreigners are treated differently that irish people are by these scumbags.

raemie21 · 03-03-2008 11:05PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Generalised what now? Seperation anxiety disorder? Just because the Americans like to categorise every facial twitch as a new psychosis requiring the flavour of the month in expensive dopamine byproducts doesn't mean we have to suck from the same teat.

This merely underlines the well established fact that IQ tests are a very good measurement of one thing - the ability to take IQ tests. As a measurement of functional intelligence they are specious at best and culturally not applicable (which is why for example many African cultures don't do well on standardised IQ tests - their culture doesn't value the same traits of intelligence; this does not make them stupid, just different).

And right here is where I have to stop you. These people are not genetically different to their parents or other people in their communities, there is nothing physically stopping them from learning. They are as capable of change and adaptation as the next man or woman. Handwaving "its not their fault" is the wrong tack to take. Yes they need help but they have to take full responsibility for their actions, something sorely lacking in the increasingly responsibility-averse society in which we find ourselves.

Yes but for want of a better solution, it is good for a laugh.

Well well Simple Sam.
Firstly, if you want to know what those disorders are, go read a book and find out, I'm not going to do that for you.
Secondly, 'categorising every facial twitch as a new psychosis' - THAT'S you attitude to mental illness? Accompanied by that amazingly flippant reference to medication?

Are you for real?!

Sometimes I ease back and I wonder why we still have to spend hundreds of thousands of euro on mental health campaigns every year, I think surely people are starting to get the message...but then someone like you comes out with a gem of a statement like that, possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard or read in ages - Congratulations.

On you go through life with that kind of attitude. I feel more sorry for you, than annoyed.
I genuinely hope that if you have children in the future that they are born healthy and happy without any neurodevelopmental, emotional, behavioural or psychiatric difficulties. I also hope that you, your family and friends will all remain in good mental health because if they have to be confronted with an attitude like that, then they'll be in serious trouble.

Are you implying that all the professionals who work in child & adolescent mental health services (those that we actually have) are merely drifting along, almost pretending to work with these fanthom illnesses and making a big deal out of nothing?????? That's a pretty brazen claim to make SimpleSam and I hope that you could back it up properly if someone was to challenge you on it in a serious situation. I take it as a personal insult to my job that you would say something like that to be honest.

For your information, the American Psychiatric Association is used as the basis of most psychiatry practice - each diagnosis and their criteria have been carefully drawn up after years and years of practice, so no it's not categorising accong to the 'new flavour of the month'. If it helps you understand, there is indeed another classification system called the ICD-10 devised mainly in Europe which yes, also includes these psychiatric disorders. Is that serious enough??

I take your point very lightly that IQ tests measure the ability to take an IQ test - in that, there can of course be a case of error as in all traditional psychmetric tests. However, take a visit to any local school in your area and see the link between IQ and school attainments. And these teenagers don't just fall into the 'below average' range, it's the intellectual disability range. Again, take a visit to your local learning disability centre and come back and tell me about IQ and 'functional intelligence' as you call it.
Obviously, Africa is a different culture and children will not perform the same on our IQ tests. Rest assured that the tests used in Ireland have been standardised according to our population and indeed cultural norms between Britain and Ireland are very similar, as in the US. IQ tests look at things like basic vocabulary, designing objects, matching patterns and so on. Quite uniform abilities across countries don't you think? Take one maybe and then get back with your argument.

'There's nothing physical to stop them from learning' you say - ?! Are you now also arguing against years of learning disability services? Of course everyone has the ability to learn new skills; but the nature, the rate, the environmental support, the practice and the retention of these skills - yes, they will differ for someone who has a typical IQ and an intellectual impairment. Full stop.

Besides, I already mentioned the idea of the lack of the emotional intelligence so that should be functional enough for you too.

I agree that they still need to take responsibility for their actions. And back to the original post here, of course the teenagers in this case will have to be reprimanded and face their consequences. However, apart from the obvious unsuitability of keeping them in prison for life - about 60/70 years (who here will complain about the cost per day of running prisons next?), my point essentially is that we need to understand where these offenders are coming and at least hope for some sort of rehabiliation for them, even if it's ten/fifteen years down the line.

I don't want to come across as being on my high horse here banging out facts and figures and of course everyone has a right to an opinion but when we are talking about something as serious as this then I feel people should be aware of these things and reflect on them before making some severe and rather unfair statements.

On a final note, can I point out that a fifteen year old or a sixteen year old is still classified as a child in the eyes of the law and that's for damn good reasons.

raemie21 · 03-03-2008 11:46PM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

It seems to be a very Irish thing to blame the entirety of society at large for the fertile ground that nourishes a potential crime, as though that society is some sort of random third party.

It's the "someone needs to do something about this!" effect.

People need to want to take responsibility for change themselves - so before we provide the mental health services, the family support units, the foster care networks, the agencies to care for difficult children from a young age to stop them from turning into murderous teenagers, the social workers, the buildings, the networks, the infrastructure, we need people.

We need people who look at those boys and think "Jesus, that's terrible. That's so terrible, I wish there was something I could do to prevent it from happening. How can I help? Can I provide my time? My money? Can I help out at an agency? Further, can I look at studying for a career where I, me, me fein, this person here, becomes the buffer between the dangerous potential and the tragic future?" But people don't think that. People think "Lock them up and throw away the key. Them AND their parents."

Punishing the parents of teenagers like that is pointless. They're already useless failures - look at their progeny. Punishing them is like bombing Afghanistan - it's pointless. It teaches nobody anything.

You will not achieve effective prevention through the use of barbaric deterrents.

Hey JD, good post.
Yes, I am one of those people who are trying in a way. It's by courtesy of my job, although I'm not physically out there in my spare time I suppose, on the front line. Are you?
What you find though is that you can actually get the people easily enough but it's more difficult to get them together into some sort of package that can make changes.
I completely agree with your idea of looking at crimes like this and thinking yeah, Jesus, what is wrong with these teenagers, rather than casting them to the cells.
At the end of the day, in colloquial terms, if a fifteen year old stabs an innocent man in the head with a screwdriver, then obviously yeah something is massively wrong with him and 'he's not right in the head' as they say. And like what I've referred to in my other posts, hopefully people may start to consider some of the background to these kinds of things.

Wook · 04-03-2008 10:37AM

Just a quick related question,

does this country also have streetworkers? (like youth workers but they spend most of their time on the streets meeting with kids and people who need it)?

lostexpectation · 04-03-2008 10:47AM

Wook wrote: »

Just a quick related question,

does this country also have streetworkers? (like youth workers but they spend most of their time on the streets meeting with kids and people who need it)?

nope just underesourced youth workers working out of clubs, who might wander a bit...

glad to here them question and arresting the women, often instrumental in goading situations

SimpleSam06 · 04-03-2008 11:33AM

raemie21 wrote: »

Sometimes I ease back and I wonder why we still have to spend hundreds of thousands of euro on mental health campaigns every year, I think surely people are starting to get the message...

Oh I fully recognise that there are mental health issues of a wide variety of colours and flavours - however you need to recognise that there is a difference between being ill and being malicious. We aren't dealing with a spate of sickness here, we're dealing with a subculture whose meme is to get away with what you can, and take pleasure in the suffering of others. This has developed through their experience of gaming the system and their knowledge of how far they can push it. They are not deserving of pity, and dealing with them should deal with the larger picture, not just with individuals.

raemie21 wrote: »

Are you implying that all the professionals who work in child & adolescent mental health services (those that we actually have) are merely drifting along, almost pretending to work with these fanthom illnesses and making a big deal out of nothing??????

Actually I think psychology itself is a young science with a great deal to learn about what makes up the human mind. Only recently was the push changed from making people "normal" (and just what the hell is that) to making them become the best they can be, and even that approach is mildly flawed in my opinion. Its also very much associated with the for-profit pharmaceuticals industry, which makes it further suspect.

raemie21 wrote: »

For your information, the American Psychiatric Association is used as the basis of most psychiatry practice

These would be the people behind doping up children who are "overactive" and categorising them with something called ADD?

raemie21 wrote: »

I take your point very lightly that IQ tests measure the ability to take an IQ test - in that, there can of course be a case of error as in all traditional psychmetric tests. However, take a visit to any local school in your area and see the link between IQ and school attainments.

IQ tests are not part of the standard school curriculum in Ireland, or anywhere else, for good reason.

raemie21 wrote: »

Obviously, Africa is a different culture and children will not perform the same on our IQ tests.

Africa is composed of many different cultures.

raemie21 wrote: »

Rest assured that the tests used in Ireland have been standardised according to our population and indeed cultural norms between Britain and Ireland are very similar, as in the US. IQ tests look at things like basic vocabulary, designing objects, matching patterns and so on. Quite uniform abilities across countries don't you think?

There is no definitive description of what "intelligence" is. So tell me, how can there be a "quotient system"? I've been tested at over 150 myself, which puts me in the high genius category, and I still say its a load of crap. Further I don't recognise these aberrent individuals as being part of the same culture as myself, nationally or locally. Likewise for the many facets that make up intelligence, it is impossible to define a "norm", since it depends upon the indivudal to a great extent. Heres a bit more information:

In recent years, researchers in Africa, Asia and elsewhere have found that people in non-Western cultures often have ideas about intelligence that differ fundamentally from those that have shaped Western intelligence tests.

...

Some cultural differences in intelligence play out on a global scale. In "The Geography of Thought" (Free Press, 2003), Richard Nisbett, PhD, co-director of the Culture and Cognition Program at the University of Michigan, argues that East Asian and Western cultures have developed cognitive styles that differ in fundamental ways, including in how intelligence is understood.

People in Western cultures, he suggests, tend to view intelligence as a means for individuals to devise categories and to engage in rational debate, while people in Eastern cultures see it as a way for members of a community to recognize contradiction and complexity and to play their social roles successfully.

...

Serpell and others have found that people in some African communities--especially where Western schooling has not yet become common--tend to blur the Western distinction between intelligence and social competence. In rural Zambia, for instance, the concept of nzelu includes both cleverness (chenjela) and responsibility (tumikila).

"When rural parents in Africa talk about the intelligence of children, they prefer not to separate the cognitive speed aspect of intelligence from the social responsibility aspect," says Serpell.

Over the past several years, Sternberg and Grigorenko also have investigated concepts of intelligence in Africa. Among the Luo people in rural Kenya, Grigorenko and her collaborators have found that ideas about intelligence consist of four broad concepts: rieko, which largely corresponds to the Western idea of academic intelligence, but also includes specific skills; luoro, which includes social qualities like respect, responsibility and consideration; paro, or practical thinking; and winjo, or comprehension. Only one of the four--rieko--is correlated with traditional Western measures of intelligence.

raemie21 wrote: »

I don't want to come across as being on my high horse here banging out facts and figures and of course everyone has a right to an opinion but when we are talking about something as serious as this then I feel people should be aware of these things and reflect on them before making some severe and rather unfair statements.

On the contrary you come across as an educated and concerned professional with a decent manner. My overall point would be that the solutions you have outlined have failed in the US, they have failed here. Therefore there must be something wrong with those solutions.

Terry · 04-03-2008 05:39PM

duff365 wrote: »

If they had asked two irish lads in their mid twenties to buy beer for them and the two lads refused do you think anything would have happened. I don't. Thats what i meant.

It has happened before and it will happen again.
This time it only sticks out because the victims were not Irish.

ojewriej · 04-03-2008 07:27PM

Terry wrote: »

It has happened before and it will happen again.
This time it only sticks out because the victims were not Irish.

I think you are right, but just partially.

Apart from them being Polish, there is two more things which caught media's and ordinary people's attention: the fact that it was a screwdriver, and the fact that one of them was stabbed in the head. Particularly the latter i think

Dyr · 04-03-2008 11:18PM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

People need to want to take responsibility for change themselves - so before we provide the mental health services, the family support units, the foster care networks, the agencies to care for difficult children from a young age to stop them from turning into murderous teenagers, the social workers, the buildings, the networks, the infrastructure, we need people.

Punishing the parents of teenagers like that is pointless. They're already useless failures - look at their progeny. Punishing them is like bombing Afghanistan - it's pointless. It teaches nobody anything.

You will not achieve effective prevention through the use of barbaric deterrents.

Oh yes you will, one on the only things these f****rs understand is when someones willing to say "no" to them and back it up with force. As long you let them f**k with you they will do it.

I grew up in the same circumstances that every social worker and other professional excuse maker loves to use to explain why these f****rs are social predators. So did most of my relatives and friends, none of us became scumbags because we had decent parents. And that's the crux of the scumbag question. They're scumbags because their parents were scumbags just like their own kids will be scumbags. If you want to get your social scientist hat on then think about the fact that we tolerate their behaviour and have allowed communities to crumble to the point that these toerags can thrive and pull borderline kids into their scumbag ways.

ou want to change it, have no tolerance towards their behaviour. Dont dare make f***in excuses about services for these f****rs. Thats like saying fire alarms are the best way to deal with arsonists. I've seen thousands of quid in social workers etc being thrown at these scumbags and they laugh at it while ordinary kids who are every bit as disadvantaged are ignored because they have the decency not to be a threat to society.

These f****rs are scumbags, they're parents are scumbags and they're kids will be scumbags for as long as we tolerate their behaviour.

lost marbles · 05-03-2008 02:41AM

Bambi wrote: »

Oh yes you will, one on the only things these f****rs understand is when someones willing to say "no" to them and back it up with force. As long you let them f**k with you they will do it.

I grew up in the same circumstances that every social worker and other professional excuse maker loves to use to explain why these f****rs are social predators. So did most of my relatives and friends, none of us became scumbags because we had decent parents. And that's the crux of the scumbag question. They're scumbags because their parents were scumbags just like their own kids will be scumbags. If you want to get your social scientist hat on then think about the fact that we tolerate their behaviour and have allowed communities to crumble to the point that these toerags can thrive and pull borderline kids into their scumbag ways.

ou want to change it, have no tolerance towards their behaviour. Dont dare make f***in excuses about services for these f****rs. Thats like saying fire alarms are the best way to deal with arsonists. I've seen thousands of quid in social workers etc being thrown at these scumbags and they laugh at it while ordinary kids who are every bit as disadvantaged are ignored because they have the decency not to be a threat to society.

These f****rs are scumbags, they're parents are scumbags and they're kids will be scumbags for as long as we tolerate their behaviour.

+ 100 well said

Iorana · 05-03-2008 01:58PM

Thanks a lot to all Irish people showing care and responding to these sad events.
I am Polish national leaving in Ireland for 5 years now and I have been shock many times before watching as you call them scumbag kids, The way they behave, don't respect people, don'y have any values.
It is sure a big difference between Poland and Ireland, this is very obvious to Poles that Ireland can't leave this problem to be.
You are normally so nice people with all this impressive history behind, very polite, gentle and supportive.
And the difference I am talking about is the way to bring up children.
In Poland kids are taught to respect adults, parents, aunts, teachers.
My example from back when I was a kid: I have wonderful parents, they would do everything for me, I have never suffered hunger, pain, lack of attention, sure we were maybe not that rich to get a new toy every day, but to be honest - CHILDREN DON'T NEED MONEY, CHILDREN NEED LOVE AND ATTENTION. My parents would die for me if they had to. by there was always a discipline in the house and I had to obey rules. If my father had caught me throwing stones at people in the street, he would have smagged my ass so badly, I would not be able to sit for one week.
There is a responsability of parents too and cooperation between school and house. Parents have obligation to pay for any damage caused by children.

There is lots of issues I could go on and on about. The result is that we don't have such a level of street violence, kids are afraid od adult and I am 29 woman now and I wouldn't say any single bad word to my mum or dad or uncle. I respect them and I am grateful for the love they gave me and still give.

I really like this country. What I don't like is to be afraid to walk in the evening on the streets, I hate knackers and I think Ireland needs a serios disciussion here.
Sorry for so long post, sorry for gramar mistakes. Thank you again Irish people for being with us in these hard days.

RIP Mariusz and Pawel

ojewriej · 05-03-2008 02:05PM

Well, we do have fair amount of scumbags in Poland as well, I don't think Ireland is any worse. I think it's more of a generation thing than geography.

SimpleSam06 · 05-03-2008 02:51PM

Iorana wrote: »

The result is that we don't have such a level of street violence

And yet Poland has a murder rate (per capita) five times greater than Ireland, putting Poland at number 20 globally as opposed to Ireland's 55, so we must be doing something right. As usual, distant hills, whether they are the past or a far off country, are only greener because they are covered in fertiliser.

watna · 05-03-2008 02:59PM

ojewriej wrote: »

Well, we do have fair amount of scumbags in Poland as well, I don't think Ireland is any worse. I think it's more of a generation thing than geography.

Yeah, did anyone see the Ross Kemp on gangs that was on last night? It was about Polish football hooligans and right wing extremists. It was pretty scary and from that I'd definitely say that Poland has its fair share of scumbags. They looked like Irish scumbags only better fed (i.e. bigger!)

Iorana · 05-03-2008 03:07PM

But we do not have such an amount of kids behaving badly, this is for sure.
And the respect for adults is still there, no doubts about it.
We have crimes, I can't deny it, we have areas where you would not go.
Attacks are easier to avoid for this reason that you would not go there.
I'd say, children are more sort of managable in Poland, I could give some examples of things that happened to me here that never happened in Poland.
Kids are also made more aware of good manners in my country, let's say my mum would always say don't leave this rubbish here, put it to the bin, or in the bus I would be expected to leave my seat to a pregnant woman, my dad would ask me to do so and I couldn't say no.
Until age of 16 my parents knew how I am doing in school, where do I go and with who, I would be expected to come back at the decent hour home.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to point at Ireland saying what is wrong what is good here. These are just the facts, observation, comparison, that's it.
I have a 2 years old daughter and I am trying to bring her up the same way like my parents did.

Greetings to you guys

nice to talk on this forum by the way, I've only read it so far

the two Polish guy's that got stabbed

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