do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

kelly1 · 26-02-2008 11:46AM

Tomk1 wrote: »

It's almost as if heaven-belivers are only good because they want a reward and go to heaven. So the question is do they deserve to go to heaven, as it's not their free will to be good.

That's probably true for many. They love the reward more that than God. Is it also wrong to love creation more than the Creator.

Tomk1 wrote: »

Would it not make more sense that no-one knows about heaven, and if you live a good and just life then you get in.

instead of dangling biscuit above a dog

What alternative would you suggest? That God would conceal the truth from us? Everybody needs hope and the reward of Heaven gives Christians lots of hope. Or are you suggesting that God would keep quiet altogether?

Bduffman · 26-02-2008 11:56AM

kelly1 wrote: »

What alternative would you suggest? That God would conceal the truth from us? Everybody needs hope and the reward of Heaven gives Christians lots of hope. Or are you suggesting that God would keep quiet altogether?

I don't need hope - I live a good life because its the right thing to do.

PDN · 26-02-2008 12:53PM

Tomk1 wrote: »

It's almost as if heaven-belivers are only good because they want a reward and go to heaven. So the question is do they deserve to go to heaven, as it's not their free will to be good.

Would it not make more sense that no-one knows about heaven, and if you live a good and just life then you get in.

instead of dangling biscuit above a dog

To characterise those who believe in heaven as doing good works solely because they get a reward is a total misrepresentation. We get to heaven as a result of Christ's death for us on the Cross, not because of any good works we ourselves may or may not have done.

The idea of living a good and just life would be great - if any of us were capable of living a good and just life. But as it is we all lie, act selfishly etc.

PDN · 26-02-2008 12:55PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Excellent point. Surely someone who lives a good life without expecting a reward is truly deserving of any reward that comes their way?

By the same logic I suppose that anyone who sins without expecting punishment is truly deserving of any punishment that comes their way?

Bduffman · 26-02-2008 02:41PM

PDN wrote: »

By the same logic I suppose that anyone who sins without expecting punishment is truly deserving of any punishment that comes their way?

Sure - why not?

Fanny Cradock · 26-02-2008 08:09PM

Then your logic applied in a Christian context would mean that none of us deserve salvation. Happily, Jesus has has offered us all an alternative to what we otherwise deserve.

Bduffman · 27-02-2008 09:27AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Then your logic applied in a Christian context would mean that none of us deserve salvation. Happily, Jesus has has offered us all an alternative to what we otherwise deserve.

I have to say that I've never been able to use the word 'logic' in the same sentence with phrases like 'christian context' & 'salvation' before. Theres always a first time I suppose - for me they don't exactly fit well.
Maybe you've just hit the nail on the head - maybe none of you deserve salvation. Maybe it was gods big test to select only people who live a good life just because its the right thing to do. Wouldn't that be a sickener.

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 03:59PM

Bduffman wrote: »

I have to say that I've never been able to use the word 'logic' in the same sentence with phrases like 'christian context' & 'salvation' before. Theres always a first time I suppose - for me they don't exactly fit well.
Maybe you've just hit the nail on the head - maybe none of you deserve salvation. Maybe it was gods big test to select only people who live a good life just because its the right thing to do. Wouldn't that be a sickener.

Your understnding of Christianity is dead wrong here. God does not select only those that live a good life.

We select God and choose to trust in Him. Salvation rests alone on that point, not on a living a good life.

Living a good life is a result of accepting and trusting in Christ.

Zombrex · 27-02-2008 04:30PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Living a good life is a result of accepting and trusting in Christ.

That is a bit of a dangerous assumption. How many people believe because of that logic that what ever they do it must be "good", because they believe they have accepted and trust Christ. George W. Bush springs to mind.

Do you believe it is possible for a person to be accepting and trusting in Christ and not lead a good life?

kelly1 · 27-02-2008 04:34PM

Wicknight wrote: »

That is a bit of a dangerous assumption. How many people believe because of that logic that what ever they do it must be "good", because they believe they have accepted and trust Christ. George W. Bush springs to mind.

Do you believe it is possible for a person to be accepting and trusting in Christ and not lead a good life?

For once I agree.

robindch · 27-02-2008 04:40PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Living a good life is a result of accepting and trusting in Christ.

I utterly reject the idea that I am incapable of living a "good" life because I don't believe the same thing as you.

Idealogical arrogance does not become you, Brian :mad:

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 04:44PM

Wicknight wrote: »

That is a bit of a dangerous assumption. How many people believe because of that logic that what ever they do it must be "good", because they believe they have accepted and trust Christ. George W. Bush springs to mind.

Do you believe it is possible for a person to be accepting and trusting in Christ and not lead a good life?

I do, because the third component is 'following' Christ, and sometimes that doesn't happen.

So it works:

Accept Christ - as Lord and saviour
Trust Christ - with your life
Follow Christ - by the leading of the Holy Spirit

and the result:
Being conformed into the likeness of Christ by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:28)

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 04:50PM

robindch wrote: »

I utterly reject the idea that I am incapable of living a "good" life because I don't believe the same thing as you.

Idealogical arrogance does not become you, Brian :mad:

I dont believe I said that nor have I ever.

We are speaking of the Christian life here Robin, not life in general.

I know many non-Christians who give out for their fellow man and do some pretty good philanthropic work.

It still does not deny that being a Christian should lead to living a good unselfish life.

Some of the secular philanthropists do so in order to get tax breaks and thereby increase their bottom line. Soem do because they feel a social responsibilty and it goves them a good feeling. We can debase any good work to a selfish motive.

kelly1 · 27-02-2008 04:51PM

robindch wrote: »

I utterly reject the idea that I am incapable of living a "good" life because I don't believe the same thing as you.

Idealogical arrogance does not become you, Brian :mad:

Brian is talking about living a good life in the eyes of God, not man. It really doesn't matter what people think of us, it only matters what God thinks. At the end of the day (or life) we will be judged on God's terms, we are not capable of a completely fair judgment becuase only God knows what goes on in a person's heart and the intentions behind our actions.

kelly1 · 27-02-2008 04:55PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I do, because the third component is 'following' Christ, and sometimes that doesn't happen.

So it works:

Accept Christ - as Lord and saviour
Trust Christ - with your life
Follow Christ - by the leading of the Holy Spirit

and the result:
Being conformed into the likeness of Christ by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:28)

Being conformed to Christ doesn't happen without effort on our part and to assume otherwise is foolish. God's grace helps us to live according to His will but it doesn't force us.

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 04:56PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Being conformed to Christ doesn't happen without effort on our part and to assume otherwise is foolish. God's grace helps us to live according to His will but it doesn't force us.

Absolutely.

robindch · 27-02-2008 05:02PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

We are speaking of the Christian life here Robin, not life in general.

That's not what you said, but I do accept your clarification.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Some of the secular philanthropists do so in order to get tax breaks and thereby increase their bottom line.

That's a strange accusation to make. Who's been doing that?

PDN · 27-02-2008 05:34PM

Bduffman wrote: »

I have to say that I've never been able to use the word 'logic' in the same sentence with phrases like 'christian context' & 'salvation' before. Theres always a first time I suppose - for me they don't exactly fit well.
Maybe you've just hit the nail on the head - maybe none of you deserve salvation. Maybe it was gods big test to select only people who live a good life just because its the right thing to do. Wouldn't that be a sickener.

You're still not getting it. God doesn't select people who live a good life. None of us can live a life good enough to deserve salvation - that is the whole point of the Christian Gospel. Salvation is by grace - undeserved mercy.

kelly1 · 27-02-2008 05:43PM

PDN wrote: »

You're still not getting it. God doesn't select people who live a good life. None of us can live a life good enough to deserve salvation - that is the whole point of the Christian Gospel. Salvation is by grace - undeserved mercy.

Agreed but I think it's important to understand that salvation can be lost by destroying grace through grave sin. Grace can't be taken for granted.

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 05:58PM

robindch wrote: »

That's not what you said, but I do accept your clarification.That's a strange accusation to make. Who's been doing that?

Goes back to accusations of some that Christians only do good for the selfish benefit of eternal life.

I admit it is a statement out of context.

wolfsbane · 27-02-2008 06:25PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Agreed but I think it's important to understand that salvation can be lost by destroying grace through grave sin. Grace can't be taken for granted.

True salvation cannot be lost, for it is God who keeps His people from abandoning the faith. If they sin, He causes them to repent. Every son He loves he chastens. It is the phoney Christians, the self-deluded hypocrites that will hear Him say, "I never knew you."
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

robindch · 27-02-2008 07:36PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Goes back to accusations of some that Christians only do good for the selfish benefit of eternal life.

I'm sure there are a few christians who do (maybe not? I've no idea), but that explanation is much too simplistic and I don't recall that any of the local atheists have much time for that explanation either. Please correct me somebody if I'm wrong.

Anyhow, I'm interested that you say that there are irreligious people who give money to charity to save on the tax-breaks. I've never come across this -- can you give a few examples?

Fanny Cradock · 27-02-2008 08:13PM

robindch wrote: »

That's not what you said, but I do accept your clarification.That's a strange accusation to make. Who's been doing that?

Probably every Corporation on the face of the earth. I'm not sure their motivation is based upon any sort of religious non/belief, though.

robindch · 27-02-2008 08:27PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Probably every Corporation on the face of the earth.

Well, I've been running software shops for the last fifteen years or so and I've never come across it. I'm curious, coz it's not immediately obvious to me how giving money away could be profitable, unless the Revenue gives you a tax break which is greater than the amount you give, and I've never seen that either.

As I said, I'd like to see a few examples of this.

Fanny Cradock · 27-02-2008 09:00PM

Sorry, just to clarify - I wasn't actually defending Brian's statement. I'm sure he can do that himself. My intention was to suggest that the idea behind many Corporations giving money to charity is something quite far removed from pure altruism (assuming one believes in such a thing), and a great deal closer to generating good press for profits sake. My opinion in this matter isn't based on my faith, just good old fashioned cynicism born out of first-hand experience! Of course I completely neglected to point this out before, instead I went straight for the cynical comment. Still, a gift is a gift, right?

::Edit::

After a quick scan on Google I came across an article that may be of some interest - in particular the 'Tax Policies Encourage and Reward Giving' section. As I've only glanced through it I can't say for sure if it supports or invalidates Brian's claim.

http://www.ssireview.org/site/printer/a_failure_of_philanthropy/

robindch · 27-02-2008 09:16PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Sorry, just to clarify - I wasn't actually defending Brian's statement.

Fair enough, I thought you were. Brian -- any info, please?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

My intention was to suggest that the idea behind many Corporations giving money to charity is something quite far removed from pure altruism (assuming one believes in such a thing), and a great deal closer to generating good press for profits sake.

Plenty of companies do donate cash and services publicly, but I generally don't begrudge them for whatever good will they can generate -- the benefits of charity usually outweigh the misery of having to skip past a puff piece in a trade rag. There are also plenty of outfits (mine included) which donate anonymously and, I hope, altruistically.

And I recall from my fund-raising days for a local homeless charity, I found people in general to be forthcoming and, though there wasn't a tax-break in sight, really quite generous too.

BrianCalgary · 27-02-2008 09:58PM

robindch wrote: »

Fair enough, I thought you were. Brian -- any info, please?..

If giving a donation one falls into a lower tax bracket, after deducting the contribution from taxable income, there can be significant savings. There is also the goodwill and the advertising that comes as a reult. The corporation that gives a sizable amount to a charity with great fanfare and gettingon the 6:00 O'clock news revels in teh exposure.

robindch wrote: »

Plenty of companies do donate cash and services publicly, but I generally don't begrudge them for whatever good will they can generate -- the benefits of charity usually outweigh the misery of having to skip past a puff piece in a trade rag. There are also plenty of outfits (mine included) which donate anonymously and, I hope, altruistically.

I agree, it is not the only reason nor is it done 100% of the time. i think that what is disturbing me robin, is that you are asking for proof to defend my statement, which is fine, yet I have never seen you demand that same proof freom someone who makes a statemnt like, 'Christians become such only because of the benefit to them of eternal life'.

robindch wrote: »

And I recall from my fund-raising days for a local homeless charity, I found people in general to be forthcoming and, though there wasn't a tax-break in sight, really quite generous too.

I the same, although there were those who do demand a mention in the evenings program, and / or a tax receipt.

There are all sorts of reason for giving.

bogwalrus · 27-02-2008 10:52PM

If god doesnt allow non believers who are truly generous and altruistic into heaven for the fact that they dont believe in him then he can sod off.

Tell me this. What other purpose is there on this planet if not to live in harmony with your fellow man and other species so that all live happily for the simple purpose of the progression of life? Your ideas of worshiping god to be saved are most definitely selfish (whether you know it or not). Only an atheist can be truly altruistic as he/she does not have to think of salvation as it is not a factor in their thinking processes.

Examples:
An atheist donates money into a charity box - "i hope this money goes to helping some of the less unfortunate people in the world"

A christian donates money into a charity box - "i hope this money goes to helping some of the less unfortunate people in the world.........i hope god saw me do that"

robindch · 28-02-2008 01:14AM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

If giving a donation one falls into a lower tax bracket, after deducting the contribution from taxable income, there can be significant savings.

That's not how tax brackets work, at least in any tax system that I'm familiar with. Check with an accountant as it's too involved for here.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

There is also the goodwill and the advertising that comes as a reult. The corporation that gives a sizable amount to a charity with great fanfare and gettingon the 6:00 O'clock news revels in teh exposure.

It might be different in Canada, but here in Ireland and other than telly-station organized charity gigs, I don't remember anybody getting any coverage on the news for making a donation to charity. And in any case, so what? That's not the point that I'm asking you to clarify.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

i think that what is disturbing me robin, is that you are asking for proof to defend my statement, which is fine, yet I have never seen you demand that same proof freom someone who makes a statemnt like, 'Christians become such only because of the benefit to them of eternal life'.

As above, I don't believe that myself and I vaguely recall pulling people up on that, or something similar recently, quite possibly in relation to posts by Zillah, kelly1 and Soul Winner. Do check this out.

And as you raise the topic, I must say that christian posters, even those who are well-qualified to be good historians, have remained curiously silent when you've said -- as you have -- that something is assumed to be true if nobody else contradicts it (in relation to the NT). The sides of this debate are not being equally honest.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

There are all sorts of reason for giving.

Yes, indeed there are. And I'm asking you to back up what you said with examples about "secularists" giving to charity in order to gain tax benefits. Can you do this?

Bduffman · 28-02-2008 09:51AM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Your understnding of Christianity is dead wrong here. God does not select only those that live a good life.

We select God and choose to trust in Him. Salvation rests alone on that point, not on a living a good life.

Living a good life is a result of accepting and trusting in Christ.

With respect but I have to agree with some other posters when they say that is arrogance of the highest order. By your last statement you imply that you can only live a good life if you 'accept & trust in christ'. What absolute nonsense & as an atheist I take offence to it. As far as I'm concerned I live a 'good life' - probably better than most 'christians' I know - and I'm pretty sure its not as a result of any 'christ'. And if your god does not select 'only those that live a good life' but may actually select those believers who may not even live as good a life as me then he must be a very petty individual.

do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

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