do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

eoin5 · 18-02-2008 04:31PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

If we simply don't exist after the death then Christians are just fools here and now and so are all other religious people who hope in something else after death. But if they've put their money on the right horse well then that's a different matter. Especially if a lake of fire exists. Heaven might not be what you would like it to be but it has to be better than burning.

I choose to interpret it as a hot springs.

eoin5 · 18-02-2008 04:31PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Obviously those who lived before the coming of Christ weren't required to believe in Him. But His death on the cross still saved them (in advance). The just remained in the realm of the dead (Sheol?) until Jesus' resurrection. Those who we subject to the Jewish law were judged according to that law. Others would be judged according to their consciences. It will be the same for those who through no fault of their own don't know that Jesus is the only means of salvation. Everyone who ever was or ever will be saved will only be saved through Jesus' death on the cross. God is fair.

So he makes up and changes the rules as he goes along too. Thats another reason he is unfair.

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 04:34PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Obviously those who lived before the coming of Christ weren't required to believe in Him. But His death on the cross still saved them (in advance). The just remained in the realm of the dead (Sheol?) until Jesus' resurrection. Those who we subject to the Jewish law were judged according to that law. Others would be judged according to their consciences. It will be the same for those who through no fault of their own don't know that Jesus is the only means of salvation. Everyone who ever was or ever will be saved will only be saved through Jesus' death on the cross. God is fair.

Would it not be then better for the committed christians of the world to bury every existence and proof of god safe in the knowledge that they believed and thus would be saved and that all generations (billions upon billions of souls) in the future remaining ignorant of the teachings will be saved. This is not tongue in cheek but a genuine question.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 04:47PM

eoin5 wrote: »

If thats the case then god is wanton and silly. I guess I cant blame anyone for being wanton or silly but I certainly wont do what they say unless they force me to.

That is your choice. You see the thing people get confused the most about when it comes to God in my opinion is that they think He's up there caring about what people think of Him. News flash!!! He’s not! He doesn’t care what your opinion of Him is. There's His opinion and that's all that matters. Now you are free to like or dislike that about God but He doesn't care either way. He's has provided they way to eternal life. He's done His part and those who will come that way will come, and those who don't won't. Simple really. God is not out there looking for friends despite the traditional view that Jesus is at your heart’s door knocking begging to be let in. He's not. You accept his terms of the agreement or you burn, it's that simple. Always was that simple and always will be.

Zulu · 18-02-2008 04:47PM

PDN wrote: »

Worship, while part of eternity (as it is part of my present) is certainly not all that we will be doing in heaven.

I doubt very much you'd have to worship in heaven if there was one. Why would god require the worship of a soul in heaven? (considering you've already proved yourself worthy in life). I don't believe his/her ego would require such stroking tbh.
Also, when you say we....??

PDN · 18-02-2008 04:48PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Would it not be then better for the committed christians of the world to bury every existence and proof of god safe in the knowledge that they believed and thus would be saved and that all generations (billions upon billions of souls) in the future remaining ignorant of the teachings will be saved. This is not tongue in cheek but a genuine question.

Christians do not believe that all or even most of those who haven't heard the Gospel will be saved. What we actually believe is more along these lines:

1. Everybody has sinned, so no-one actually deserves to go to heaven.
2. God, through Jesus Christ, has made it possible for people to get to heaven even though they don't deserve it.
3. Everybody has received some sort of revelation of who God is. For some this revelation is very faint (a sense of right or wrong in their consciences, or an awareness from creation itself that there is a God). For others it is distorted through false religions or through Christians who are crap at presenting the Gospel. Others receive a full and clear presentation of the Gospel.
4. God is not obligated to give everyone an equal chance to accept the Gospel. Every revelation of mercy that we receive is above and beyond what we really deserve.
5. God will judge everyone according to the light he or she has received. Different Christians hold a wide range of views as to how many, or how few, will be saved on this basis.
6. The clearer the presentation of the Gospel, the more we would expect people to respond. Therefore we would believe that preaching the Gospel will increase, not decrease, the number of people who get to heaven.

dardoz · 18-02-2008 04:50PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

...which is salvation for those who will accept it, it's right there all you need do is speak it forth...

Do you actually talk like this irl?

PDN · 18-02-2008 04:53PM

Zulu wrote: »

I doubt very much you'd have to worship in heaven if there was one. Why would god require the worship of a soul in heaven? (considering you've already proved yourself worthy in life). I don't believe his/her ego would require such stroking tbh.
Also, when you say we....??

"We" is the 1st person plural. It means that more than one person will get to heaven and that I anticipate being one of them.

Worship is not about proving yourself worthy, nor about stroking anyone's ego. It is about expressing love and enjoying one another's company.

My wife and I frequently tell each other that we love each other, and we like to spend time together. Nothing to do with proving worthiness or stroking egos, just a normal loving relationship.

I see worship in this life as spending time in God's presence, telling Him that I love Him and hearing that He loves me. I would see worship in eternity as being somewhat similar and enjoyable, but probably even better.

JimiTime · 18-02-2008 04:55PM

PDN wrote: »

For others it is distorted through false religions or through Christians who are crap at presenting the Gospel.

Classic:D I did giggle at this. Don't beat around the bush about it. Amen brother, Amen!

Zulu · 18-02-2008 04:57PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

That is your choice. You see the thing people get confused the most about when it comes to God in my opinion is that they think He's up there caring about what people think of Him. News flash!!! He’s not!... You accept his terms of the agreement or you burn, it's that simple. Always was that simple and always will be.

I have a problem with this absolute approach; it's not very forgiving. God is supposed to be forgiving, so this is a contradiction. Do you really believe that god is spiteful? That god is so restrictive? That god is oppressive?
If so - you've a very sad view of god, and I'm not sure why you'd worship him unless you were frightened of him. Is that why you worship god?

Akrasia · 18-02-2008 05:02PM

PDN wrote: »

1. Everybody has sinned, so no-one actually deserves to go to heaven.

Do we deserve to go to hell?

2. God, through Jesus Christ, has made it possible for people to get to heaven even though they don't deserve it.

How nice of him... would be a lot nicer if he didn't throw the rest of us into a lake of fire

3. Everybody has received some sort of revelation of who God is. For some this revelation is very faint (a sense of right or wrong in their consciences, or an awareness from creation itself that there is a God). For others it is distorted through false religions or through Christians who are crap at presenting the Gospel. Others receive a full and clear presentation of the Gospel.

How is that fair? Why should some people get strong messages, while others are only given a vague 'sense' that can easily be attributed to other causes.
God never talked to me (even when I was a child who prayed every day), but there are people who believe they have a personal relationship with him. Do we have a right to feel a little bit neglected, and is it not a case of our 'father' failing to demonstrate his love to every child equally.

4. God is not obligated to give everyone an equal chance to accept the Gospel. Every revelation of mercy that we receive is above and beyond what we really deserve.

Except for the fact that the people who don't accept the gospel end up in eternal damnation. Its not a matter of god being nice and choosing to reward some people out of the kindness of his heart, it's about him choosing some people to not punish for all of eternity.

5. God will judge everyone according to the light he or she has received. Different Christians hold a wide range of views as to how many, or how few, will be saved on this basis.

6. The clearer the presentation of the Gospel, the more we would expect people to respond. Therefore we would believe that preaching the Gospel will increase, not decrease, the number of people who get to heaven.

These two statements are incompatible. Does god judge people who have had a chance to hear the gospel harder than those who have never heard of Jesus? If he does, then by telling atheists about Jesus, you are making it harder for them to get a favourable hearing on judgement day, but if you never told them, they would have an excuse to say to god that they never heard of jesus and can't be held responsible for not believing in him.

Or does god not care about whether you have heard of jesus or not, and will condemn everyone from not believing in him regardless of the circumstances. And that's not very fair or just

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 05:04PM

orestes wrote: »

It's not possible for an atheist to be a good person? So not only are any atheists who do charity or humanitarian work going to hell, but they are also bad people?

Some atheists follow the same core ethical principles of christianity (love your neighbour, do unto others, etc) but even though they treat other people the same way as a christian would, they are necessarily bad people while a christian who acts the same way is a good person?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I'm saying is it that Bible states that ALL (everybody) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and ALL are going to burn no matter how good they think they are. The only thing that saves anyone from this eternal burning is Faith in God's Word. Which said faith (i.e. trust) puts God's spirit in you and you become a new creature in Christ, having both your old and the new Christ-like nature in you at the same time. When you die the new nature is raised to eternal life. If you have not this Spirit in you by faith then you will be eternally lost having put your trust in your dying flesh no matter how good you think you are. Living good lives will not get you to heaven. But it is true that you will live better lives as a result of God's spirit in you but you're not granted eternal life based on the good life that was lived, only because you trusted God and His indwelt spirit enabled you to live a good life. But even then the life is not a perfect life. We still have faults but because of your faith God doesn't see those faults, He see Christ. Just like when Christ died on the cross God viewed Him as a sinner when in fact He wasn't. He bore our sins in Himself and paid for them with His life. That gives God the right to look at us in away we don't deserve simply because we trust Him. You can’t get a simpler message than Christianity. But it has been the target of Satan for centuries and he has done a good job of confusing the world about it enough to the point that they are tuned off on it and hate it. Going to heaven because of good works is a Satanic message. The only thing that saves is acting on the promises in God’s Word.

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 05:04PM

PDN wrote: »

Christians do not believe that all or even most of those who haven't heard the Gospel will be saved. What we actually believe is more along these lines:

1. Everybody has sinned, so no-one actually deserves to go to heaven.
2. God, through Jesus Christ, has made it possible for people to get to heaven even though they don't deserve it.
3. Everybody has received some sort of revelation of who God is. For some this revelation is very faint (a sense of right or wrong in their consciences, or an awareness from creation itself that there is a God). For others it is distorted through false religions or through Christians who are crap at presenting the Gospel. Others receive a full and clear presentation of the Gospel.
4. God is not obligated to give everyone an equal chance to accept the Gospel. Every revelation of mercy that we receive is above and beyond what we really deserve.
5. God will judge everyone according to the light he or she has received. Different Christians hold a wide range of views as to how many, or how few, will be saved on this basis.
6. The clearer the presentation of the Gospel, the more we would expect people to respond. Therefore we would believe that preaching the Gospel will increase, not decrease, the number of people who get to heaven.

Continuing that line of thinking, the more exposed, the more expected to do. Most people i would argue in the world are not extremely evil/bad. As is the present population of the world would have a better chance of being saved if they were not exposed to the entire christian thinking.
What im (badly) trying to point out is the negativity in this model of belief (im not saying whether it is wrong or right). In this model we are all better of being mentally incapable of thought and the most Christian thing to do with all newborn babies to ensure their saviour would be to kill them or handicap them. To extend it even further, our generation could all commit suicide as an act of ultimate christian sacrifice and thus saving trillions of future souls that are predominatley destined for an everlasting of untold misery.

Also the saying god is fair/ god is just does not sit well with this belief system. Most of human existence has been denied the knowledge of gods existence and god in his infinite wisdom knows these people were never taught his teachings. Teachings that were only passed on to a select few two thousand years ago although human have been living here for millenia.

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 05:07PM

This particular debate has been going for a long, long time and is one of the main ways of illustrating the shortcomings of several of the main religions. It goes against most peoples intuition and sense of reason that any supreme being would torture for all eternity beings who accidentally worship It via the incorrect symbols, or simply missed out on the Good News through being too remote, etc. So you either have to suppress your intuition and reason (perfectly acceptable to most Christian sects) or seek alternative, less irrational religions, or become a VERY deep Christian thinker who can find alternative understandings of the nature of god, heaven and hell.

The best example of the latter I can think of is Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest whose writings were banned by the church while he was alive because they sought an integration of science (particularly evolution) with Christianity. I think he was a genius. However, if you truly believed what he did, you would find yourself outside of any mainstream religious institution (which might be a very good thing).

Zulu · 18-02-2008 05:09PM

PDN wrote: »

"We" is the 1st person plural. It means that more than one person will get to heaven and that I anticipate being one of them.

Yea I guessed that - isn't that a bit presumptuous though? - not having a dig here you could be a saint, but anyone I've known growing up (who were believers) weren't quite so sure, in fact all of them were hoping for the best.

Worship is not about proving yourself worthy, nor about stroking anyone's ego. It is about expressing love and enjoying one another's company.

No I know, but I wouldn't describe "expressing love" as "worship". The word to me smacks of formality; of ceremonies, but I guess that's just a personal reinterpretation of a word.

My wife and I frequently tell each other that we love each other,

You see I wouldn't describe this as you worshiping your wife, but I take your point.

I see worship in this life as spending time in God's presence, telling Him that I love Him and hearing that He loves me. I would see worship in eternity as being somewhat similar and enjoyable, but probably even better.

Ok, I can agree with that, as by that rationality a good person will worship god (by just being a good person) and get into heaven regardless if they are atheists, pagans, etc.

Zulu · 18-02-2008 05:15PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

.... Going to heaven because of good works is a Satanic message. The only thing that saves is acting on the promises in God’s Word.

ooookay then. Only one thing though. God's word was recorded by humans. Humans are flawed, and corruptible by satan. So how could you know gods word?

I think, if you live a good life, you'll be alright.

nikki 122 · 18-02-2008 05:16PM

Zulu wrote: »

ooookay then. Only one thing though. God's word was recorded by humans. Humans are flawed, and corruptible by satan. So how could you know gods word?

I think, if you live a good life, you'll be alright.

i completely agree in your face soul winner!!!!

PDN · 18-02-2008 05:22PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Continuing that line of thinking, the more exposed, the more expected to do. Most people i would argue in the world are not extremely evil/bad. As is the present population of the world would have a better chance of being saved if they were not exposed to the entire christian thinking.

'Good' and 'bad' are relative terms. Compared to Hitler, everybody I know is very good. Compared to Jesus Christ they are very bad.

I know of no Christian who thinks that the world's population has a better chance of being saved if they never heard the Gospel.

In this model we are all better of being mentally incapable of thought and the most Christian thing to do with all newborn babies to ensure their saviour would be to kill them or handicap them. To extend it even further, our generation could all commit suicide as an act of ultimate christian sacrifice and thus saving trillions of future souls that are predominatley destined for an everlasting of untold misery.

That would only hold true if going to heaven were the only thing that mattered. It all comes down, as many things do, to free will. If avoiding pain and suffering were the be all and end all then all of us would strangle our children at birth. Instead we care for our children and feed them because we believe that the opportunities of life outweigh the risks of life. I know that there is a risk that my daughter will suffer from cancer or that she may choose to become a mass murderer. However, my desire for her to have the opportunity to grow as a moral human being, and to enjoy the experiences of loving and being loved, make that risk worthwhile.
God wants people to experience love in a way that is only possible for a free moral agent. Christians believe that there is something so wonderful about love that a universe with love and with hell is preferable to one where neither hell nor love ever existed.

Also the saying god is fair/ god is just does not sit well with this belief system. Most of human existence has been denied the knowledge of gods existence and god in his infinite wisdom knows these people were never taught his teachings. Teachings that were only passed on to a select few two thousand years ago although human have been living here for millenia.

Remember we are discussing Christian beliefs. Christians believe that human beings had a very good knowledge of who God is from the very beginning.

PDN · 18-02-2008 05:26PM

Zulu wrote: »

Yea I guessed that - isn't that a bit presumptuous though? - not having a dig here you could be a saint, but anyone I've known growing up (who were believers) weren't quite so sure, in fact all of them were hoping for the best.

I don't think it is presumptuous to believe what the Bible says. Assurance of salvation, or knowing that you're saved, is an important biblical concept.

No I know, but I wouldn't describe "expressing love" as "worship". The word to me smacks of formality; of ceremonies, but I guess that's just a personal reinterpretation of a word.

Maybe you have never experienced real worship?

You see I wouldn't describe this as you worshiping your wife, but I take your point.

This is why some versions of the marriage vows at a wedding include the words "with my body I worship thee" (addressed to your spouse)

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 05:31PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Yes he does. He is supposed to be a perfect being. He is supposed to be merciful and just
Fairness and justice go hand in hand. There is nothing at all fair or just about condemning the vast majority of people to eternal damnation just because they made a rational choice based on the empirical evidence they saw around them. (there are loads of rational reasons why someone would choose to be an atheist, or choose to worship a different god or choose a different kind of spiritualty)

He isn't supposed to be anything. The only thing that makes Him God is all power. He doesn't have to be loving, kind or fair or anything like that but His Word reveals that His is like this and that we should thank Him for it all the time.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 05:32PM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I have to say that they Christian consensus here that only they have a chance of getting to Heaven because they are right and everyone else is wrong is reminding me how glad I am to have gotten out of the faith and reminding me how sure I am that if there is a God it couldn't possibly be the Christian God as nothing that powerful could be so petty. I detest the idea of exclusivity and I pity the people who feel it seperates them from the plebs, be that in real life or the afterlife. It is just like that shower in the Portmarnock Golf Club who wanted the Club for men only, women need not apply.

Well GOLF does stand for Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 05:34PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

He isn't supposed to be anything. The only thing that makes Him God is all power. He doesn't have to be loving, kind or fair or anything like that but His Word reveals that His is like this and that we should thank Him for it all the time.

The Gnostics called the being you seem to be describing as the Demiurge. He is arbitrary, irrational and requires thanks and worship.

The true God was good, all-loving, kind and fair by definition - "God Is Love" in other words, not "God doesn't have to be love but he is, mostly, if you believe in him and thank him for being so loving".

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 05:45PM

nikki 122 wrote: »

wat do u believe in so every1 needs faith of sum sort

Everyone has faith when faith is defined as action based upon belief sustained by confidence but saving faith is acting on God's Word and sustaining that action with the confidence that God will bring to pass what He has promised. Do I have perfect faith? Not yet, but like Paul I press toward the mark. We only have the freedom to put our trust in either God or everyhing else, we do no have the freedom to not have faith. Like the Bob Dylan song teaches, "...it might be the Devil or it might be the Lord but you're gonna have to serve somebody"

1stimpressions · 18-02-2008 05:48PM

PDN wrote: »

'Good' and 'bad' are relative terms. Compared to Hitler, everybody I know is very good. Compared to Jesus Christ they are very bad.

I know of no Christian who thinks that the world's population has a better chance of being saved if they never heard the Gospel.

That would only hold true if going to heaven were the only thing that mattered. It all comes down, as many things do, to free will. If avoiding pain and suffering were the be all and end all then all of us would strangle our children at birth. Instead we care for our children and feed them because we believe that the opportunities of life outweigh the risks of life. I know that there is a risk that my daughter will suffer from cancer or that she may choose to become a mass murderer. However, my desire for her to have the opportunity to grow as a moral human being, and to enjoy the experiences of loving and being loved, make that risk worthwhile.
God wants people to experience love in a way that is only possible for a free moral agent. Christians believe that there is something so wonderful about love that a universe with love and with hell is preferable to one where neither hell nor love ever existed.

Remember we are discussing Christian beliefs. Christians believe that human beings had a very good knowledge of who God is from the very beginning.

Sorry im bad at multi quotes but i do want to make a number of replies.
I wrote evil/bad because i knew the language was not precise enough. Fair enough they are massively relative terms but what im trying to point out is the system is weighed in favour of those who know nothing/ are ignorant of the situation. using a grosse but fitting analogy. if you are exposed to 100% of christian teachings and have little or no faith in god you are doomed. If you live in a tribe in the north pole and do good deeds and can grasp the idea that a greater being created what was around you giving you 0% exposure but maybe 10% worthiness or whatever, giving you a safer passage to god. Im not saying that is not the system, im saying if it is, its not in any form fair to the overwhelming majority of god's creation. Whether Christians believe spreading that word is besides the point really.

About kids. Fair enough you want your daughter to have the opportunity. But the law of averages, 99% of your future family will not be saved under the model. In Catholicism as i have been taught, this life is all preparation and pales into insignificance to everlasting bliss and this life could be completely painful because the riches to come are infinite, so the small joys you hope for for your daughter are a rather meaningless risk for the very high chance that she does not qualify for heaven, Daughter is not meant personally but for society as a whole. Although we are asked to make a choice of free will, at the same time god tells us he has revealed mysterys to us that we cannot understand and a biology(brain) that rationally and aggressively denies i his existence.

Christian beliefs is fair enough but im trying to get a perspective of the creators on his creation humankind. It is fact that Jesus' life and teaching are only in this world for two thousand years, so there were no christians before that to begin with nevermind humans interaction with christ from the beginning. There was certainly no "knowledge" for most of gods creation.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 05:52PM

dardoz wrote: »

Do you actually talk like this irl?

To God in private yes. I leave out the stain glass tones that you might have superimposed onto it though.

threeleggedhors · 18-02-2008 05:58PM

It feeds the needs of the poor and downtrodden hence poor contries are generally big on God much to the likings of the Church. Can anyone in this world offer even a sound reasoning as to why a God has to exist ?. My biggest debate against it's existance would be that for something that powerfull and all knowing, you would have to assume that it would think and act logically, yet when you look at the world nothing is logical e.g. an earthquake in a poor and war-torn country, LOGICAL ?? and don't start feeding me with "he works in mysterious ways" or "it's down to man's freewill". Here's a thought also. God created angels and must've given them freewill coz old beelzebub and few of d lads started a ruck up there. Instead of just waving his hand and making him disappear he let them battle it out. He likes a good ruck. If an angel is slain where do they go ?. How can you kill something that's not flesh and blood. If he hadn't let the devil exist then would there be such a thing as good and evil. The whole thing just sounds sooo made up.....:rolleyes: Is the definition of a man that he is a sinner yet God became a man but how can something divine have sin and let's not forget Jesus's little outburst at the temple, surely he gave into rage. Nobody really practices religion fully coz if we did we'd only keep enough money to get buy and donate the rest. Could you say that Jesus was the original Communist ??

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 06:00PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Christian beliefs is fair enough but im trying to get a perspective of the creators on his creation humankind. It is fact that Jesus' life and teaching are only in this world for two thousand years, so there were no christians before that to begin with nevermind humans interaction with christ from the beginning. There was certainly no "knowledge" for most of gods creation.

Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and Judaism traces its timeline back to the Creation of the world. So in that sense they would say that humans have always had God's message available to them.

This fiction does not tally with what we now know about the world, but this does not change the fact that this is what the Bible says and therefore what many Christians are required to believe, unless they are lucky enough to be in one of the sects that do not require literal interpretation of the Old Testament.

Soul Winner · 18-02-2008 06:01PM

CaptainNemo wrote: »

The Gnostics called the being you seem to be describing as the Demiurge. He is arbitrary, irrational and requires thanks and worship.

The true God was good, all-loving, kind and fair by definition - "God Is Love" in other words, not "God doesn't have to be love but he is, mostly, if you believe in him and thank him for being so loving".

Yes God is love, but love is not God. If God weren't all powerful then Satan would be God. God can be meaner than anyone and has ever been. Read what He did to Eli's sons, Korah, Lot's Wife, all the Israelites over 20 before the others entered the promised land under Joshua, what He did to Jericho, the people of Bethshemesh when they opened the ark. God can be a mean son of a you know what when He wantsto be. But He is also slow to anger and of great mercy when you trust Him. But you can go too far with Him and He gets pissed off because of lack of faith eventually.

kelly1 · 18-02-2008 06:06PM

1stimpressions wrote: »

Would it not be then better for the committed christians of the world to bury every existence and proof of god safe in the knowledge that they believed and thus would be saved and that all generations (billions upon billions of souls) in the future remaining ignorant of the teachings will be saved. This is not tongue in cheek but a genuine question.

If this were the case, God wouldn't have sent Jesus to teach us the truth. Jesus would have died of a stabbing or a snake bite or something like that and we would never have heard of Him. Jesus revealed the truth to His apostles and sent them out to teach this truth. Without the truth, we are slaves to error.

Soul Winner wrote: »

That is your choice. You see the thing people get confused the most about when it comes to God in my opinion is that they think He's up there caring about what people think of Him. News flash!!! He’s not! He doesn’t care what your opinion of Him is. There's His opinion and that's all that matters. Now you are free to like or dislike that about God but He doesn't care either way. He's has provided they way to eternal life. He's done His part and those who will come that way will come, and those who don't won't. Simple really. God is not out there looking for friends despite the traditional view that Jesus is at your heart’s door knocking begging to be let in. He's not. You accept his terms of the agreement or you burn, it's that simple. Always was that simple and always will be.

Soul Winner, whatever you do, don't become a preacher. You don't paint a very merciful or loving picture of God. People want to know that God cares about them. You give the impression that God doesn't really love us as if Jesus died on the cross purely out of a sense of duty and not love.

Zulu wrote: »

ooookay then. Only one thing though. God's word was recorded by humans. Humans are flawed, and corruptible by satan. So how could you know gods word?

Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to remind the apostles of everything He told them. The Gospel is infallible since it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

CaptainNemo · 18-02-2008 06:08PM

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes God is love, but love is not God. If God weren't all powerful then Satan would be God. God can be meaner than anyone and has ever been. Read what He did to Eli's sons, Korah, Lot's Wife, all the Israelites over 20 before the others entered the promised land under Joshua, what He did to Jericho, the people of Bethshemesh when they opened the ark. God can be a mean son of a you know what when He wantsto be. But He is also slow to anger and of great mercy when you trust Him. But you can go too far with Him and He gets pissed off because of lack of faith eventually.

Sure, but this understanding of God is based on literal interpretation of the Old Testament which is not something I recommend for those who want to have a deep spirituality and remain Christian.

do athiests and agnostics go to heaven

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