Should Rafa go?

Drag00n79 · 17-02-2008 01:04AM

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm sure people were frustrated with the apparent lack of progress at Utd before they started winning under ferguson.

I wasn't at all frustrated actually. Good times, good times.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 01:05AM

Yes

Shamrok wrote: »

I wasn't at all frustrated actually. Good times, good times.

leninbenjamin · 17-02-2008 01:07AM

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

Viera and Henry? two of the best players ever to play in the PL? think you are possibly setting the bar a little too high!?

they are the exact type of player you need to win a league... the league you want Liverpool to win? the type of player Benitez must foster to win the damn PL? i'm not setting the bar high at all, i'm prescribing exactly what a winning team needs, exactly what Benitez thus far has failed to provide.

i wouldnt call Alonso,Mascherano,Agger solely potential, they are already super super super super players.

that's being extremely generous. Alonso still hasn't lived up to his initial promise that we saw in his first season. Mascherano needs a lot of work on the football side of things... Agger is the only one i'll defer to you on, but he's still far from the finished article in my book.

Drag00n79 · 17-02-2008 01:16AM

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa won the CL in his first.

While both brought me great joy and memories, we have to move on from winning the CL in 2005 on pens and winning the FA Cup in 2006 on pens. I go back to what I said earlier. The Prem is all that counts for me as a Pool fan and we won't ever win that under Rafa, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not getting into an argument with ya as a fellow fan but that's what I honestly feel and I think he has had sufficient time and funds to make us better than we are atm. I can't remember our prospects ever looking as bleak tbh.

DSB · 17-02-2008 01:20AM

No

Wenger bought himself alot of time by not spending huge amounts of the clubs money. He has also proven twice that he has what it takes to win the Premiership. It really isn't a fair comparison to make.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 01:21AM

Yes

Shamrok wrote: »

While both brought me great joy and memories, we have to move on from winning the CL in 2005 on pens and winning the FA Cup in 2006 on pens. I go back to what I said earlier. The Prem is all that counts for me as a Pool fan and we won't ever win that under Rafa, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not getting into an argument with ya as a fellow fan but that's what I honestly feel and I think he has had sufficient time and funds to make us better than we are atm. I can't remember our prospects ever looking as bleak tbh.

as i said earlier, i'm sure a lot of Utd fans would have said the same about Ferguson in 88/89 when Utd looked like they wouldnt win a league under Alex and finished 11th. despite finishing second the season before. it must have looked like they were going backwards at that point....unfortunately though, they werent.

i'm not saying Rafa should be kept indefinately cause we won the CL but, because he has won a fair few trophies in the last 3 years, so i think he should be given the five years he requested when he arrived. then we can make a decision.

jem · 17-02-2008 01:25AM

Yes

I still think he should stay, the youths he has built up is very like wenger, in for the long hall, needs a good ass manager though.

Drag00n79 · 17-02-2008 01:26AM

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm not saying Rafa should be kept indefinately cause we won the CL but, because he has won a fair few trophies in the last 3 years, so i think he should be given the five years he requested when he arrived. then we can make a decision.

Will you still say that if we don't get fourth in the Prem? Because to be honest I wouldn't put money on it now.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 01:27AM

Yes

we are three points away from being 4th in the PL and have a game in hand. i wouldnt get too melodramatic about it!

and yes, i still think Rafa should stay if we dont get 4th. thatd mean we'd have even more focus on the league next year.

DSB · 17-02-2008 01:28AM

No

jem wrote: »

I still think he should stay, the youths he has built up is very like wenger, in for the long hall, needs a good ass manager though.

Eh I don't see them playing week in, week out, like Wenger had them, making a comparison between Benitez and Wenger is ridiculous.

Unearthly · 17-02-2008 01:31AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

have a game in hand.

Liverpool fans are still saying this

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 01:35AM

Yes

good work unearthly, nice contribution.

Unearthly · 17-02-2008 01:37AM

Thankyou, nice to get some feedback

Daemonic · 17-02-2008 01:38AM

Yes

DSB wrote: »

Eh I don't see them playing week in, week out, like Wenger had them, making a comparison between Benitez and Wenger is ridiculous.

There's the difference as I see it, Wenger had a formation/style that was working, he just need the players to come through. I just don't see that with the current Liverpool performances.

Drag00n79 · 17-02-2008 01:40AM

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

we are three points away from being 4th in the PL and have a game in hand. i wouldnt get too melodramatic about it! and yes, i still think Rafa should stay if we dont get 4th. thatd mean we'd have even more focus on the league next year.

We are also three points off 8th place. We have 44 points with 13 matches left and will prob need mid-60 point total to get fourth based on previous seasons. Some fixtures left are Arsenal, ManU, Spurs and Everton. The first three away. Believe me, it's hardly "melodramatic" when you look at our performances over the past few months.

PHB · 17-02-2008 02:19AM

No

Look, people can go back and forth about how Rafa should have done better in the transfer market. But what you can't disagree on is the fact, and this actually is a fact rather than the normal statements of fact, that Rafa cannot get anywhere near the best out of the players he has brought in.

Whether it's that he can't get them motivated, whether it's that he can't get them trained to a high enough level, or whether (and I think this is it) he can't make a system that uses their strengths to the best of their ability, it's a huge failing.
Of course 2 or 3 more world class attackers will help Liverpool catch up with the big 4, you'd be stupid to say it wouldn't. The question is though, can Rafa set up the right system? This year the team is playing ****, and that's his fault.

Personally, I think 4 years is plenty of time to judge somebody, Rafa is a cup specialist for Liverpool. I've no doubt that Liverpool will improve if they buy some wingers and another striker. That said, I could have told you that. What's Rafa got over me? Since he can't seem to devise any sort of working tactical system that actually gets the best out of his current players, I can't see why he would be able to do it if he had better players. All that would happen is that he'd have better players and hence do better.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 02:49AM

Yes

PHB wrote: »

Of course 2 or 3 more world class attackers will help Liverpool catch up with the big 4

?!?! i thought we were in the big 4?!?!or has Barnsley taken our place?!

Nailz · 17-02-2008 02:51AM

No

Yes!

leninbenjamin · 17-02-2008 03:05AM

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

?!?! i thought we were in the big 4?!?!or has Barnsley taken our place?!

Liverpool are like the youngest brother of the big 4. always wants to follow the bigger stronger brothers everywhere but has to be dragged kicking and screaming when the going gets tough.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 04:40AM

Yes

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Liverpool are like the youngest brother of the big 4. always wants to follow the bigger stronger brothers everywhere but has to be dragged kicking and screaming when the going gets tough.

finished third last 2 seasons.

Only one of the "big 4" to win the CL this century. the CL being the biggest competition in club football.

the Liverpool bashers must really be loving all this:(

PHB · 17-02-2008 04:56AM

No

Oddly enough, you are also the only one of the big 4 not to win the league this century.

I saw this great piece in the United program today actually, ways to win things

A. Try do everything, almost impossible, normally doesnt work (United, Chelsea way)

B. Put league as a clear second and concentrate totally on the CL. Means you've pretty much no chance in the league (Milan and Liverpool way)

C. Cut out the Domestic cups as a priority and focus on a double (Arsenal, Barca)

Although in the past, Madrid won their CL's by doing the B way, but seem to be more about the C way now

walshki · 17-02-2008 05:50AM

No (Liverpool fans)

Quite a few people on RAWK are drawing the comparison between this season and Houlliers last season and I think its a good comparison. There are a lot of good players in the squad but unfortunately I don't think Rafa is getting them to play as well as they can. Ultimately thats his job isn't it? The prospect of a champions league run is all thats keeping us going and we haven't played a game in that for over 2 month ffs.

My difficulty with people who point out off the pitch progress, squad progress etc is that I just don't see us being close to mounting any sort of league challenge with Rafa at the helm. I can't see us turning around and suddenly being contenders next year. No amount of talk about giving him the time he asked for or 'Who else is there?' can change my opinion on that.

Mr Alan · 17-02-2008 04:42PM

Yes

walshki wrote: »

My difficulty with people who point out off the pitch progress, squad progress etc is that I just don't see us being close to mounting any sort of league challenge with Rafa at the helm. I can't see us turning around and suddenly being contenders next year. No amount of talk about giving him the time he asked for or 'Who else is there?' can change my opinion on that.

But will you concede that United surely didnt look like they would win the league in 88/89, but yet..we all know wat happened when the board showed faith in Ferguson to deliver.

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

give the man next year.

cson · 17-02-2008 04:55PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

PHB did

Mr Alan wrote: »

give the man next year.

Agreed. But another similar season where Liverpool are out of the league by January should see him gone. He's under huge pressure if he gets another year at it.

Helix · 17-02-2008 04:57PM

united didnt have a side that really looked capable of it then, liverpool do

this is where your rose tints are getting in the way

liverpool have a squad of players which should be challenging, and not sitting outside the champions league places, and the only reason theyre where they are, is because of the manager

you ask who else is there? well ill tell you my opinion on that, any manager with a modicum of experience and decent man management skills, but with the brains to put out a reasonably settled 11 and stick with it would do far better than benitez in the league

cson · 17-02-2008 05:20PM

The Liverpool squad is lacking, imo, 3 players. A striker, a winger and a left back.

Helix · 17-02-2008 05:25PM

sure last summer they signed everything everyone reckoned they were lacking

they could sign everything youve listed there and they still wont win the league under benitez

astrofool · 17-02-2008 05:25PM

Even Keegan was able to mount a title challenge

PHB · 17-02-2008 06:19PM

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

But will you concede that United surely didnt look like they would win the league in 88/89, but yet..we all know wat happened when the board showed faith in Ferguson to deliver.

Maybe Rafa isn't as good in the league as Ferguson? Maybe it was a different league back then? Much more unpredictable.
This is a silly point to make, cause its not like if Big Sam was in charge, and he didnt get anywhere for 4 years, you'd be saying that he should be given more time. This is about what Rafa has shown

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

Well actually I thought they could do it, because Wenger has shown he knows how to make a team work well.
That's the issue here. It's not lack of players. Yes Liverpool need more good players for a top class squad, but Rafa isn't getting anywhere near the best out of the squad he currently has!
Maybe if he signs two wingers and a striker it'll all come together, but what evidence is there that he can get that to happen? Nada. The level of consistancy required to win the league now is something which Rafa can't seem to deliver.

you ask who else is there?

Managers I think who would be worth a shot. Mourinho (who I don't think would join yas, I think he wants to go abroad) Lippi, I don't know. Real Madrid appointed a relative nobody, and look at them this year. It's not just about record, it's about an x factor. Rafa doesn't seem to have it. Houllier didn't have it. Give it to somebody else. Either way, personally I'd be very happy for Rafa to stay.

p.s. If Liverpool don't win the CL this year, I think some players are gona ask whether their future lies at the club. Gerrard I think will consider moving again. Torres might think about it. Alonso surely will, since he's not even first choice anymore. Agger might get an offer from abroad.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-02-2008 09:29PM

No (Liverpool fans)

cson wrote: »

The Liverpool squad is lacking, imo, 3 players. A striker, a winger and a left back.

they have them. Problem is, on the bench.

Should Rafa go?

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