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Should Rafa go?

1246710

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭kida


    ~Rebel~ wrote: »
    On point b) We're playing rubbish right now, but you'd be nuts to look at our squad now compared to when Rafa joined and say we're not much much better off. He's worth a final year to add another top class player and try to get them playing like they can.

    on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 34,404 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    Yes
    kida wrote: »
    on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager

    On paper the squad is better, and on the field its about as bad right now. (Do you forget how bad we were in Houlliers last 2 years?). We've only gone backwards from Rafa's own success benchmark.

    Given the fact that a change of manager would more then likely set us back a few years anyway, we may as well give Rafa his year. He's changed everything in the club, all the youth is his, all the staff are his, I dont really want us going back to square one before giving this every chance.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,942 ✭✭✭missingtime


    Yes
    kida wrote: »
    on paper the squad is better - so why are they going backwards? simple answer - the manager

    The ****e with the board that we've had to deal with this season?

    Look, we are not Newcastle (yet :o) so we'll see what happens, he deserves to finish his contract anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,617 ✭✭✭✭PHB


    No
    If you ignore all the stuff about the past, and say Rafa has done a decent enough job at rebuilding from a poor position [And it really is unfair to compare him to Wenger, Wenger is an absurdly special manager who has built a title challenging team, gotten to a CL final, on a net spend of like 1 million, amazing]

    Look at Rafa taking them to the next level, has he shown he's able to do it?
    He can't get the best out of his current team.
    Maybe if he gets new players they'll be better, of that I've no doubt, but Rafa can't find a decent formation or system to get the best out of the players he currently has. Kevin Philips managed to get 30 goals one season, he's was better than Kuyt. Fergie managed to go on an incredible run of wins with Giggs and O'Shea in midfield. Rafa can't decide on a system, and can't seem to get the best out of his players. I don't think he will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    Benitez is not capable of winning the Premier League, end of story. Even taking the background **** out of the way, he's too conservative. Example - Mascherano is a defensive midfielder - who play him agains Havant and Waterlooville?

    The draws are a testament to this - we won't be beaten often, but we won't win often either. There's an arrogance about Liverpool that they almost assumed they'd be in the hunt with a minimal workload, avoiding defeat and winning the occasional game. Then they realise somewhere about the 60-minute mark that they're being bossed around, make a few susbsititions and start playing, but by that stage it's too late.

    We need creative, attacking midfielders/wingers. Not defensive kindpins. We needed either a Walcott, Tevez or someone like that, but I don't think that'll ever happen with Benitez on board and, even if he does sign them, will he field them from the start?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,617 ✭✭✭✭PHB


    No
    The draws are the issue. Rafa is too conservative, and doesn't know how to win games. He would prefer a draw to risking defeat or victory. That works great in cups, but you can't win the league on penalties, and that means you can win the league on drawing games.

    As for replacements? Mourinho would do better I think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    Of the 20 premiership managersi would like to see where Rafa stands in tersm of ability. Definite behind Wenger and Ferguson. Possibly behind ONeill but on a par with Harry Rednapp and David Moyes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,537 ✭✭✭joe123


    No (Liverpool fans)
    Martin O neill has got Aston Villa doing far better than us...and hes spent ALOT less than rafa. If it was David Moores still in charge and not the americans I bet the fans would be on Rafas back alot more.

    Hes done some great things for us, but he just can cut it in the league. His record against the top 3 is terrible. Weve won like 4 games against them since he took over.


    Can anyone point me in the direction to a video of where Gerrard shakes his head at rafa from last night?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,617 ✭✭✭✭PHB


    No
    I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
    Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,537 ✭✭✭joe123


    No (Liverpool fans)
    PHB wrote: »
    I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
    Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.


    Its unfair to compare trophies won with O neill. Id be willing to bet anyting if O neill took over liverpool or any Big club hed do great things.

    The way liverpool play is bad. If you just look at preformances we just dont look like a good team.

    We are far to conservative.We have alot of **** players. We have alot of **** players who Rafa CONSTANTLY picks.

    And hes only started picking torres regularly since we started drawing with teams such as wigan. Its not good enough.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    PHB wrote: »
    I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
    Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.

    ONeill took a nothing team to the UEFA Cup final and beat Liverpool on the way. ONeill is far better in the transfer market and a much better man manager. All things being equal i think ONeill is better. If they were to switch clubs today, i would say Villa would finish in the bottom half and Liverpool would finish fourth.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat



    3 and a half years on, and the squad is significantly better player for player. Our defence is now regarded as one of the best in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the emergence of Jamie Carragher The Central Defender under Benitez. Our central midfield is unrivalled in terms of class and in terms of depth. In Torres, it looks like we have the most clinical finisher at our club since the days of Fowler and Rush. The youth teams are full of promising youngsters.

    Unrivalled? Seriously have a look at your midfield sometime.

    And i'd love to know how many points the mighty jamie has cost liverpool over this season. Granted some of those tackles are trying to cover for one of your unrivalled classy midfielders not tracking back.

    I hope rafa stays, maybe get roy evans in to help him out (or souness).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Yes
    PHB wrote: »
    The draws are the issue. Rafa is too conservative, and doesn't know how to win games. He would prefer a draw to risking defeat or victory. That works great in cups, but you can't win the league on penalties, and that means you can win the league on drawing games.

    As for replacements? Mourinho would do better I think.

    I don't think Conservatism is behind our too many draws. We simply haven't defended well enough and have been caught on the break so often this season it's frightening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    I don't think Conservatism is behind our too many draws. We simply haven't defended well enough and have been caught on the break so often this season it's frightening.

    Yes, it is. How many times have Liverpool been one-nil up and conceded a late goal because they were too conservative? The difference between Pool and Man U/Arsenal si that when the others can go 2/3/4 nil up befoer conceding.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Yes
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Yes, it is. How many times have Liverpool been one-nil up and conceded a late goal because they were too conservative? The difference between Pool and Man U/Arsenal si that when the others can go 2/3/4 nil up befoer conceding.

    No it's not. I'm assuming you've watched these games. We have consistently gone one nil up and missed chance after chance to go two or three ahead. Sometimes we have gotten away with the win, but lately we have not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    No
    I'm a neutral but have to ask, what has Rafa done for Liverpool that Houllier didn't. Besides the CL?

    Now I know the CL was a tremendous achievement and a wonderful night for ye, but the league is what ye are crying out for now.

    Poor performances in the league since he started means that in the league, he hasn't been much more successful than Houllier.

    And this with millions wasted on plenty of average players. Pennant et al.

    To get success, you must be ruthless and forget the romance of one night in Istanbul. That was 2005, this is 2008. No league title since, or likely in the next 2 years.

    It would be good for English soccer if Liverpool won the league again some time soon, but it doesn't look likely under Rafa I feel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    No it's not. I'm assuming you've watched these games. We have consistently gone one nil up and missed chance after chance to go two or three ahead. Sometimes we have gotten away with the win, but lately we have not.

    In most of the games I've watched, Liverpool have sturuggled to create chances until the last half hour, as I've said before, by which time the opposition has the confidence to hold firm. We've had six games where we've failed to score, four of which have finished nil-nil. This doesn't just happen through bad luck.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭Chardee MacDennis


    Yes
    posted this on the liverpool thread thought i might as well post it here.

    oh and i dont want any "thats never going to happen replies" etc just answer the question.

    "so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

    if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    Call_me_al wrote: »
    posted this on the liverpool thread thought i might as well post it here.

    oh and i dont want any "thats never going to happen replies" etc just answer the question.

    "so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

    if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"

    I'd have to say yes for reasons stated above. It would just confirm me belief that he's a cup manager, and not a Premiership manager. I'm not entirely convinced that he even prioritises the Premiership.

    Besides, if that weer to happen, next season would be the same as this.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat


    Call_me_al wrote: »

    "so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

    if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"

    You're IF wasn't big enough.

    I think most liverpool fans would be happy with that, and i think most arsenal, man u or chelsea fans will be happy about having won the league again.

    That said do you honestly think liverpool based on current league and cup form will progress in the CL?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    lordgoat wrote: »
    You're IF wasn't big enough.

    I think most liverpool fans would be happy with that, and i think most arsenal, man u or chelsea fans will be happy about having won the league again.

    That said do you honestly think liverpool based on current league and cup form will progress in the CL?

    Yes. Form goes out the window when Liverpool play CL. What would be interesting would be Rafa's appraoch and selection if Liverpool were drawn to play Man U....

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭scruff321


    Yes
    no way rafa should go great manager needs more resourses and backing by the board,although tbh i doubt he'l stay when hes having to put up with all the bull****


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭Brando_ie


    I tried to vote but couldn't...... I hovered for some time over YES (Liverpool Fan) but was also tempted by the NO (Liverpool Fan).

    Once managers are at a club for long enough to recruit a core element of players it becomes a more difficult proposition to simply sack them. Without actually having the first clue as to who we would try to get to replace Rafa and with a wealth of YES men out there to do our new owners bidding (after possibly an early transfer splurge bolstered by some players leaving) I would be far more fearful of where we would (and more likely WILL) be in the new two to three seasons.

    Given the option of having say, Martin O'Neill at the helm I think I would prefer that Rafa left with the goodwill of the fans for what he has achieved and had this seasons off field problems not occurred, Rafa would enjoy far less support from the majority of Liverpool fans IMO.

    Also, there is no way to know if any new owner would not come in and unsettle some of the few players who Rafa brought in who can at the minimum be useful squad players.

    Liverpool FC has suffered as a result of a decade (or more) of poor management and I fear that entering into a management roundabout will not repair the long term decay we are in the midst of.

    Getting a proper stadium and beginning to market the club to its full potential is paramount (and under our current regime, is that likely??) . Just look at how the main Liverpool thread has developed and reached 10k posts to see just how well supported they are. Sacking Rafa without a reasonable idea that his replacement will be able to bring some stability to the club would just be another smoke and mirrors reaction and may have little impact.

    Although that said, having grown up in the 70's and 80's I cant abide what I see as Rafa's view that getting the ball wide and knocking in some crosses is just a Plan B, to be used only when chasing a game...... Sorry Rafa, but it can and has actually won leagues!! and god knows it can be enjoyable to watch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    Yes
    i hope this thread explodes and dies from the amount of complete and utter ****e in it.

    rafa worse manager than moyes, redknapp and o'neill?! **** off

    wat did Rafa do that Houllier didnt except for the CL?! **** off, what a ridiculous question

    Liverpool are doing badly in the league so they'll get wellied in the CL?! league form made loads of difference in 2005 and last year didnt it. **** off

    Rafa has bought ****e,Torres only good buy!? **** right off

    Rafa cant cut it in a league situation?! his 2 la ligas might argue otherwise, **** off

    this whole thread can **** off

    I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No (Liverpool fans)
    Mr Alan wrote: »
    i hope this thread explodes and dies from the amount of complete and utter ****e in it.

    rafa worse manager than moyes, redknapp and o'neill?! **** off

    wat did Rafa do that Houllier didnt except for the CL?! **** off, what a ridiculous question

    Liverpool are doing badly in the league so they'll get wellied in the CL?! league form made loads of difference in 2005 and last year didnt it. **** off

    Rafa has bought ****e,Torres only good buy!? **** right off

    Rafa cant cut it in a league situation?! his 2 la ligas might argue otherwise, **** off

    this whole thread can **** off

    I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.


    Oooh, tetechy!

    Never said he was't a league manager, I said he wasn't a PREMIERSHIP manager. Don't watch Spanish football often, but I get the impression that it's more conservative (ie Benitez-esque) than the Prem, but open to correction!

    Rest, I agree with.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.
    Then why don't you answer the questions about his abilities and achievements rather than telling everybody to **** off?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭Chardee MacDennis


    Yes
    what i find hilarious is there are some people who say the La Liga is the best league in the world, yet Rafa isnt a good league manager!

    hmm that doesnt quite make sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    Yes
    because i've answered them all a thousand times before.

    in three years, Rafa has finished above Arsenal twice in the league, won an FA cup, got to a Cerling cup final, won the Super cup, got the world club championships final, got to a Champions league final and also won the Champions league (the biggest club competition in world football). His record speaks for itself. give the man his five years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,617 ✭✭✭✭PHB


    No
    Isn't this four years now? What do you expect to happen next year?

    If he doesn't make 4th place, should he go? If he gets knocked out by Inter, should he go? 5 years is a cop out, if you lose to Inter and come 5th, I can't see how you can possibly defend him.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭Chardee MacDennis


    Yes
    PHB wrote: »
    Isn't this four years now? What do you expect to happen next year?

    If he doesn't make 4th place, should he go? If he gets knocked out by Inter, should he go? 5 years is a cop out, if you lose to Inter and come 5th, I can't see how you can possibly defend him.

    i have said it since houllier was here champions league qualification is a minimum requirement no matter how he gets it :D


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