Should pubs ,shops be allowed to sell drink to pregnant women?

ztoical · 07-02-2008 04:22PM

Commander Vimes wrote: »

what an odd statement to make. Firstly the us government has legalised abortion so its a pro choice government that aren't providing these things, not pro lifers as you claimed. And secondly, just because you don't want someone to die doesn't mean you have to provide them with free schooling and health care

@the mods, i don't mean to bring it up again. Just pointing out the holes in the statement

actually it was the supreme court that legalised it not the goverment [see Roe vs Wade] According to the Roe decision, most laws against abortion in the United States violated a constitutional right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. You have to understand that in US there are state laws and federal laws. Due to violating the constitution abortion is legal in all states regardless of wither the state law outlaws it. Some states still have anit-abortion laws on their books but as long as the Roe vs Wade discussion stands they can't enforce them. There is an ongoing battle in the US to have the descision of Roe vs Wade overturned.

States can and have introduced laws limiting abortions - such as having mandatory waiting periods, parental consent for minors, Informed consent etc.

ztoical · 07-02-2008 04:28PM

djpbarry wrote: »

I would have thought it was common knowledge that women should not drink while breastfeeding?

So would I but I also thought it was common knowledge that women shouldn't smoke or should limit their alcohol intake while pregnant.

Sam Vimes · 07-02-2008 06:10PM

ztoical wrote: »

actually it was the supreme court that legalised it not the goverment [see Roe vs Wade] According to the Roe decision, most laws against abortion in the United States violated a constitutional right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. You have to understand that in US there are state laws and federal laws. Due to violating the constitution abortion is legal in all states regardless of wither the state law outlaws it. Some states still have anit-abortion laws on their books but as long as the Roe vs Wade discussion stands they can't enforce them. There is an ongoing battle in the US to have the descision of Roe vs Wade overturned.

i know about roe vs wade. My point was the government is pro choice because they basically have to be to get voted in in america so the accusation that pro lifers don't care about children because they don't provide free health care makes no sense. Even if they were in a position to give it, not providing it doesn't mean they're hypocritical for not wanting them to die

Kernel32 · 07-02-2008 07:39PM

Commander Vimes wrote: »

i know about roe vs wade. My point was the government is pro choice because they basically have to be to get voted in in america so the accusation that pro lifers don't care about children because they don't provide free health care makes no sense. Even if they were in a position to give it, not providing it doesn't mean they're hypocritical for not wanting them to die

I'm not sure how relevent this is, but the US federal government is not pro choice, it is pro life. Most conservative and moderate republicans are pro life, Bushs administration has been pretty vocal about this and has even used donations from the US government to other countries to further the pro life cause. I am pretty sure all the current republican candidates have declared themselves pro life. It's the Supreme court that previously made the pro choice ruling and the government cannot over rule that. All they can do is nominate judges for the Supreme court that support their position in the hopes there will be an opportunity in the future to revisit the case.

Macha · 07-02-2008 07:54PM

Smoking and drinking excessively while pregnant are both highly irresponsible activities but there are 2 problems:

1) Enforcement - many women don't know they're pregnant until up to 3 months gone, sometimes even later. How do we prove when a woman knows or doesn't and would this be admissable as defense?

2)Do we really want a situation where the state can decide what a women does with her body? I think that is a line that should not be crossed.

ztoical · 07-02-2008 07:59PM

Kernel32 wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevent this is, but the US federal government is not pro choice, it is pro life. Most conservative and moderate republicans are pro life, Bushs administration has been pretty vocal about this and has even used donations from the US government to other countries to further the pro life cause. I am pretty sure all the current republican candidates have declared themselves pro life. It's the Supreme court that previously made the pro choice ruling and the government cannot over rule that. All they can do is nominate judges for the Supreme court that support their position in the hopes there will be an opportunity in the future to revisit the case.

+ 1 up until the last mid-term elections the federal government was controlled by conservatives. Bush did try and nominate judges on to the supreme court that supported a "pro life" view point and he did enact the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. He has also limited government funding to groups that do not push abstinence as the primary means of birth control and has even annouced that a high % of the 15 million aid package meant to help people suffering with AIDS/HIV in africa must go to abstinence only programs showing a total lack of understanding of the problems they are facing there.

Also he is "pro life" but also pro death penalty which i find a bit of a contradiction.

*sorry mods for wandering off topic

The_Minister · 07-02-2008 08:08PM

ztoical wrote: »

Also he is "pro life" but also pro death penalty which i find a bit of a contradiction.

Innocent v. guilty.
You can see it in any Rambo movie hundreds die to save a handful.

embee · 07-02-2008 08:19PM

Jesus Christ,

Can ye take the abortion ranting to Humanities please? Ye were told already to get back on-topic.

Anyway...

Padraig Mor wrote: »

That's only half the story though. Occasional consumption of alcohol while pregnant has never been linked with birth defects. A drink here and there will do absolutely no harm. Calling for people to give up completely is just hysteria.

From http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1170.asp

During pregnancy, how much alcohol is too much?
No level of drinking alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy. The full pattern of FAS usually occurs in offspring of women who are alcoholics or chronic alcohol abusers. These women either drink heavily (about four or five or more drinks daily) throughout pregnancy or have repeated episodes of binge drinking. However, FAS can occur in women who drink less. ARBD and ARND can occur in babies of women who drink moderately or lightly during pregnancy.

Researchers are taking a closer look at the more subtle effects of moderate and light drinking during pregnancy. A 2002 study found that 14-year-old children whose mothers drank as little as one drink a week were significantly shorter and leaner and had a smaller head circumference (a possible indicator of brain size) than children of women who did not drink at all (7). A 2001 study found that 6- and 7-year-old children of mothers who had as little as one drink a week during pregnancy were more likely than children of non-drinkers to have behavior problems, such as aggressive and delinquent behaviors. These researchers found that children whose mothers drank any alcohol during pregnancy were more than three times as likely as unexposed children to demonstrate delinquent behaviors (8).

Other researchers report behavioral and learning problems in children exposed to moderate drinking during pregnancy, including attention and memory problems, hyperactivity, impulsivity, poor social and communication skills, psychiatric problems (including mood disorders) and alcohol and drug use (1).

I don't think that there is any "hysteria" around alcohol use in pregnancy. There is just no safe amount to drink, so none should be taken. To say "a drink here or there will do absolutely no harm" is just inaccurate and ill-informed. I didn't find it hard to cut out alcohol for 9 months and I don't see why anyone else would, unless someone had some dependency. I have barely had a drink since my daughter was born - she will be 2 next Monday.

Cathooo wrote: »

I can well imagine that! I havent given birth but stress in work gives me the urge to sink a vodka...I'm sure being in labour would up that urge a million fold!

Gas and air feels like being drunk - it was the best part of labour by far

9 months of abstinence + a couple of canisters of Entenox = great craic. Plus, it doesn't cross the placenta, so Mother feels squiffy whilst baby gets on with the important business of being born.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 07-02-2008 08:26PM

farohar wrote: »

Man's sperm is made through the splitting of cells into 2 cells each with only half the normal number of chromosomes. As we go about our daily lives our chromosomes are under regular attack from various mutagenic sources; UV & other ionising radiations, supposedly free radicals from our foods (no idea about this one), carcinogenic chemicals from both external and internal sources (from of the body's own processes). The DNA has its own error checking mechanisms but they do not always catch a mistake and as such these mistakes build up through our lives, in some cases causing cancer, in most remaining benign. And yet you think it is only the womens' sex cells that degrade as they age?
Enter:
into google and you'll see just how many diseases in children are linked to increased age of the paternal DNA donor (the father).

Hmm, where in Dublin can you store sperm? Or nearest place. Not drinking much recently would probablyt be a good time to do it!

Any links to disease & frozen sperm?

Hydroquinone · 07-02-2008 08:46PM

taconnol wrote: »

2)Do we really want a situation where the state can decide what a women does with her body? I think that is a line that should not be crossed.

Unless Ireland's abortion laws have changed in the last five minutes or so, I reckon that worrying about that is a pointless exercise; seeing as the state is already doing just exactly that.

AckwelFoley · 07-02-2008 08:49PM

Its stupid and irresponsible to drink or smoke while pregnant.

However passing a law preventing a woman doing so is over stepping civil liberties.

This will never happen

Terry · 07-02-2008 08:50PM

Next person to mention abortion gets banned.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-02-2008 09:44PM

gamer wrote: »

I was listening to rte 1 today, it says in the us ,its against the law to sell beer or spirits to pregnant women .I think the law should be the same here ,as its been proven that even a few pints can harm the health of a baby or cause children to be born with a disability ,or brain abnormalitys.

Pro:
The foetus is under age.

Con:
She should still be able to go down the off license to get you a tray of beer after you've knocked her up.

We are way behind the UK when it comes to out patient pre-natel care. Lots of other things need to be done than more unenforced laws.

Padraig Mor · 07-02-2008 11:12PM

embee wrote: »

I don't think that there is any "hysteria" around alcohol use in pregnancy. There is just no safe amount to drink, so none should be taken. To say "a drink here or there will do absolutely no harm" is just inaccurate and ill-informed. ..

You'll forgive me if I take the word of my (pregnant) wife's doctor over some dodgy-looking "studies" from the internet. I have no problem with my wife having an odd drink (she might drink a half glass of wine a week) - hell, I'm encouraging her to have some more!

I'm a scientist and I don't see any evidence available that an occasional drink causes any harm. While it may be true that "no level of drinking alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy", this is simply because it is *impossible* to do so - you cannot prove a negative.

djpbarry · 08-02-2008 11:02AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

She should still be able to go down the off license to get you a tray of beer after you've knocked her up.

Ah, so eloquent...

faceman · 08-02-2008 11:04AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You'll forgive me if I take the word of my (pregnant) wife's doctor over some dodgy-looking "studies" from the internet. I have no problem with my wife having an odd drink (she might drink a half glass of wine a week) - hell, I'm encouraging her to have some more!

I'm a scientist and I don't see any evidence available that an occasional drink causes any harm. While it may be true that "no level of drinking alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy", this is simply because it is *impossible* to do so - you cannot prove a negative.

What field of science do you specialise in? Are you saying then its ok to consume alcohol during pregnancy and it will have no effect on the foetus? What is considered an occasional drink?

Padraig Mor · 08-02-2008 12:12PM

faceman wrote: »

What field of science do you specialise in??

Biology.

faceman wrote: »

Are you saying then its ok to consume alcohol during pregnancy and it will have no effect on the foetus?

Not quite. As I said, you cannot prove a negative. I'm saying that an occasional drink is highly unlikely to cause any harm. To quote from Gordon Bourne's "Pregnancy" (apparently the Bible of pregnancy books, and recommended on many sites:"...a small alcohol intake on occasions will not do the pregnancy any harm whatsoever"

faceman wrote: »

What is considered an occasional drink?

According to Bourne 1-2 units a week "may be beneficial to the fetus".

I'm not saying pregnant women should go out and get sloshed - far from it! It seems to me, however, that the whole 'no alcohol whatsoever' brigade arises from people trying to convince themselves that they know better than others in similar situations. Not trying to be personal, but embee's post is a classic example of this:

embee wrote:

I didn't find it hard to cut out alcohol for 9 months and I don't see why anyone else would......I have barely had a drink since my daughter was born

She may as well have written "I did this and it shows that I love my baby more than drinkers love theirs".

Saying "a drink here or there will do absolutely no harm" isn't "inaccurate and ill-informed" - it's just the way it is.

faceman · 08-02-2008 12:39PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Biology.

Not quite. As I said, you cannot prove a negative. I'm saying that an occasional drink is highly unlikely to cause any harm. To quote from Gordon Bourne's "Pregnancy" (apparently the Bible of pregnancy books, and recommended on many sites:"...a small alcohol intake on occasions will not do the pregnancy any harm whatsoever"

According to Bourne 1-2 units a week "may be beneficial to the fetus".

I'm not saying pregnant women should go out and get sloshed - far from it! It seems to me, however, that the whole 'no alcohol whatsoever' brigade arises from people trying to convince themselves that they know better than others in similar situations. Not trying to be personal, but embee's post is a classic example of this:

She may as well have written "I did this and it shows that I love my baby more than drinkers love theirs".

Saying "a drink here or there will do absolutely no harm" isn't "inaccurate and ill-informed" - it's just the way it is.

Admittedly i havent read bourne's book as i dont have kids myself, but i am familiar with it. Didnt Bourne's book when first written decades ago recommend the pregnant mother abstain completely from alcohol consumtion until it was revised in recent years to take a (slightly) more relaxed approach?

Due to lack of hard scientific proof (similar to studies on passive smoking) many people in the medical profession recommend moderation of consumption as opposed to outright ban. (as we know its easier to adopt to lifestyle changes in phased approaches than dramatic changes - best example being crash diets)

Many medical professionals and pediatricians however will recommend that no alcohol is consumed at all in the first 3 months of pregnancy. I have heard of many doctors who while they do recommend moderation of drinking also recommend cutting out spirits completely.

The topic of alcohol moderation is another issue in ireland. Many people assume that drinking without getting drunk is drinking in moderation whereas in reality a couple of glasses of wine spread over a week is a more reasonable definition.

I will admit that a recent respected american study (apologies i would have to dig out where it came from, i dont work in the medical profression myself) on setting recommended limits on alcohol consumption for pregnany women to 10 units per week provided that the consumption is spread out over the week as opposed to consumed at once. The study did reference that such a limit did not increase any risks.

I dont agree that everyone who says "no alcohol" is part of some PC hippy brigade.

embee · 08-02-2008 03:55PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You'll forgive me if I take the word of my (pregnant) wife's doctor over some dodgy-looking "studies" from the internet. I have no problem with my wife having an odd drink (she might drink a half glass of wine a week) - hell, I'm encouraging her to have some more!

I'm a scientist and I don't see any evidence available that an occasional drink causes any harm. While it may be true that "no level of drinking alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy", this is simply because it is *impossible* to do so - you cannot prove a negative.

You're a scientist. I'm a student midwife. So what? The fact remains (and hasn't changed) that there is no known safe level of alcohol to consume when pregnant - it would therefore make sense to any logical individual that the safest course of action is to not take any at all.

If I was able to hand you studies on paper rather than link to articles about them, would it make them less "dodgy"? Not that I'd bother mind - you're a scientist and you know it all :rolleyes:

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Not trying to be personal, but embee's post is a classic example of this:

She may as well have written "I did this and it shows that I love my baby more than drinkers love theirs".

Not personal at all, and yet you can go and speculate as to what I may or may not be thinking when I posted my own experience of pregnancy and not drinking. I don't think I love my child any more or less than any other parent out there. To say that, based on my statement that I stayed off alcohol for my pregnancy and found it easy, somehow I love my child more is just plain stupid. Not trying to be personal, of course.

djpbarry · 08-02-2008 04:17PM

embee wrote: »

The fact remains (and hasn't changed) that there is no known safe level of alcohol to consume when pregnant - it would therefore make sense to any logical individual that the safest course of action is to not take any at all.

Nail. Head.

faceman · 08-02-2008 05:03PM

embee wrote: »

The fact remains (and hasn't changed) that there is no known safe level of alcohol to consume when pregnant - it would therefore make sense to any logical individual that the safest course of action is to not take any at all.

+1 from me too

Macha · 08-02-2008 07:18PM

Question to the men here (or lesbian partners I suppose..):

What would you do if you were out with your pregnant partner and she ordered a glass of wine or other alcoholic drink? Would it make a difference it was something like a tequila shot? Just interested...

Padraig Mor · 08-02-2008 11:43PM

embee wrote: »

The fact remains (and hasn't changed) that there is no known safe level of alcohol to consume when pregnant - .

No one can say what a "safe" level would be - it will vary from person to person. The fact remains that the weight of scientific opinion supports the idea that moderate alcohol consumption while pregnant does no harm - arguing about semantics will not change that. If you don't agree - fine. Just don't intimate that those who disagree with you somehow don't care about their baby.

embee wrote: »

If I was able to hand you studies on paper rather than link to articles about them, would it make them less "dodgy"? Not that I'd bother mind - you're a scientist and you know it all .

As I showed above, well respected obstetricians have no problems with an occasional drink - I think they are more likely to "know it all" than me. As a student midwife, I'm sure you realise the importance of MMR vaccination, yet there are plenty of web sites out there which say it will harm children. One of the studies you link claims that women who had any alcohol at all during pregnancy had children who were three times more likely to demonstrate delinquent behaviours. Human beings have being consuming alcohol for thousands of years - if the above were true, it would have been noticed before 2001.

embee wrote: »

Not personal at all, and yet you can go and speculate as to what I may or may not be thinking when I posted my own experience of pregnancy and not drinking. I don't think I love my child any more or less than any other parent out there. To say that, based on my statement that I stayed off alcohol for my pregnancy and found it easy, somehow I love my child more is just plain stupid. Not trying to be personal, of course.

Apologies if I misread it, but that's what came across to me.

the GALL · 08-02-2008 11:48PM

i suppose they should be served alcohol.......but only when they've finished doing the cleaning and the gardening....oh and makein the dinner

djpbarry · 09-02-2008 02:14PM

taconnol wrote: »

What would you do if you were out with your pregnant partner and she ordered a glass of wine or other alcoholic drink?

I wouldn't expect my wife would (she's the type who would worry about that sort of thing), but if she wanted to, I wouldn't let her. It's her body, but it would be my child.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Just don't intimate that those who disagree with you somehow don't care about their baby.

In fairness, she didn't; you implied that she did.

Should pubs ,shops be allowed to sell drink to pregnant women?

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