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Mountbatten wanted United Ireland

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    #62
    DublinDes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭DublinDes


    jahalpin wrote: »
    Personal insults, are you getting a bit desperate? What's next, are you and your friends going to come over to my house and knee-cap me for expressing an opinion?

    Wearing the Poppy to show support for the brave soldiers who died in the World Wars to protect our way of life is totally separate from my opinion that the IRA and their supporters are scum (a general insult rather than a personal attack).

    Your idea of a critical discussion of Britain obviously involves someone expressing their opinion that Britain and the British are the enemy and that they are always wrong and that anyone that disagrees with this narrow-minded viewpoint are wrong.

    As I mentioned before, I am an Irish Catholic who has lived in Dublin for almost my entire life and have attended a Catholic school, and my opinion of the British and their contribution to life in Ireland and indeed, around the world, is based on my observations and analysis of the British way of life and the legacy that they left us (law, education , infrastructure etc.)

    What is generally forgotten is that the UK offered employment and a way out of poverty for millions of Irish people when they were under no legal obligation to do so (I am well aware that certain sections of the British people were anti-Irish etc..)

    " I am an Irish Catholic who has lived in Dublin for almost my entire life " Try pulling the other one, there's bells and whistles on it. " the UK offered employment and a way out of poverty for millions of Irish people " Did it ever occur to you, that if Britain had not destroyed the economy of Ireland in the first place, people wouldn't be forced to leave the country would they ?? Unionist troll.


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    #63
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,994 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    DublinDes wrote: »
    " I am an Irish Catholic who has lived in Dublin for almost my entire life " Try pulling the other one, there's bells and whistles on it. " the UK offered employment and a way out of poverty for millions of Irish people " Did it ever occur to you, that if Britain had not destroyed the economy of Ireland in the first place, people wouldn't be forced to leave the country would they ?? Unionist troll.

    Successive Irish governments, starting with Dev's troupe, destroyed the Irish economy. De Valera, in his naivety, assumed that all of the Irish Catholic business-men, who had all of their funds abroad pre-independence, would all bring them back to a newly independent Ireland, the patriots that he assumed that they were.

    Unfortunately for Dev, they weren't stupid enough to risk investing their loot with him. It was pretty much down the hill all the way after that.


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    #64
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    jahalpin wrote: »
    Why would I want to go there? I'm Irish, Catholic and from Dublin and have always lived in Dublin, except from when I went to Uni. in London.

    You obviously take the view that anything that the "Republicans" do is right and for the good of the country and everything that everyone else does is wrong.

    The "Republican" movement are the most sectarian mob ever, they believe that it is their god-given right to slag and intimdate people due to their religion.

    The IRA have more than cancelled out any entitlement they may have had to be bitter over Bloody Sunday with their almost 30 year reign of terror throghout the British Isles.

    many british people were happy to see a united ireland. damn all of the politicans in westminsiter knew anything or really cared about britain. in the 1970-1980's the working class british citizen had their own social and economical problems thanks to maggie thatcher and wars in other areas.many would, like thatcher would have resented spending time and money in the north when thy had their own constituencies to serve.

    you have read the transcripts from the bloody sunday tribunal or the score of victims statements, haven't you? many victims had bullet entries under their arms, as in surrendering - that would be some shooting if the victim had a gun. the british were completely negligent that day other previous events went off peacefully - in fact some received sectarian insults from the other side, the police had to try and split sections of the march so that it would not displease the other community if they came into their area - how ironic considering orange orders marching into places like garvahy road, sure their were barely any usuable arms in the hands of republicans at that time as they were then nick named i ran away. the whole republican thing only integrated (as far as hume was concerned not welcomed) after the bloody sunday disaster. the ira as a whole had damn all to do with the civil rights movement, far enough some were involved but the monster was released after this event.

    that was when the rivial started, and it was supported by the a reasonable large group of ordinary people up there, the funerals of dead republicans prove this, of course the british once again like 1916 shot themselves in the foot with the introduction of internment. the province was back to direct rule, much to the pleasure of most unionists, leaving people with despair and no alternative. same i am sure could be said for people who joined the uvf, udr etc. we are only begining to find out about what really went on within the ranks of the ruc and collusion.

    i am not trying to glorify them, they members or disident members killed members of our police force in carrying out criminal activities in the free state, they are no angels. they became corrupt in many ways, abusing the trusts of ordinary people who relied upon them for protection, by killing and intimidating their own, they also started to go away from their intial polcy of targeting military targets by killing many innocent victims regardles of religion.

    but neither were the loyalists angels, ever hear of the shankill butchers? i take it you actually know why the civil rights movement started in the first place by the likes of hume, delvin and copper - you not find the unionists action which caused this the most sectarian of them all.

    how come no one stopped johnny maddog adair from posing with a gun for the cover of his autobiography? why no one talks about the monaghan and dublin bombings (oh because they are not on the same scale?) what about the miscarriage of justice caused by the likes of lord denning in the cases of birmingham 6 or the guilford 4? why has britain neve been properly punished by higher authorities from some of their actions during the internment years, despite 3 or 4 major european court of human rights cases going ruling against their actions?

    it is unhelpful trying to make who was worse than the others, and i am not accusing you of doing so, but like all of irish history it is not as straight forward as one woul think, particularily for those who never expereinced it for themselves - you had the comfort of being away from it all (again not justifying their actions or attacking your view)

    its time to allow these tribunals and truth commissions do their jobs and get on with things like building the bridges and creating trust, there is no longer any accuse for it not to happen.


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    #65
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    jahalpin wrote: »
    People who are executed are normally tried in a court of law first. What actually happened was that he was murdered by cold blooded cowardly scum.

    It really takes a brave person to blow up an old couple and some children on a boat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Calling members of the paracute regament terrorists is a bit rich, they were soldiers doing their job protecting the population from the terrorists in the IRA and trying to bring a bit of normallity to life in Northern Ireland

    in light of comments on bloody sunday

    normality for who? unionists? oh yes stop those taigh from peacefully marching for their fundamental rights. yes we do not want another martin luther king here aye! was john hume, ivan cooper and bernadette devlin mp were they really starting the trouble?. how would you take it if you had a police force coming into your area treating you differently to the other community and then trying to stop your rights to peaceully march in protest, being jeered on by the other side?. or when supposed secretaries for state pop over from westminster checking out your estate which is badly needing repairs but the "town or city council" could not give a damn. the secretary is all nice but nothing really happens.

    or what about when the county of derry calls for the establishment of a university to accommodate the large youth population and improve work force suitability - but instead of putting it into the city (which is mostly populated by catholics, they send it down to a smaller town of coleraine who wait for it- is mostly protestant. co-incidence?

    all of this happend shortly before the revival of the ira and establishment of the provo's.

    that is funny, in light of what you said about derry being a war zone of the day of the marches (which is not accurate - emergency rule had not been effected yet) what about the 13 proven (and will further be proven) innocent vicitms of the bloody sunday march? did the ones who were running away through fear of paid gunmen who were suppose to be there for their protection give these people a court hearing? why was there so many cover ups?

    again thankfully for a couple of european court of human rights cases, they would beg to differ from your second comment. is internment for up to 72 hours without trial or charges correct? is torture through interogation just doing their jobs correct? why do you think this caused republicans to act more malciously?

    the forces had been welcomed by the republicans first, their actions on those days ended the trust, people found they were no better than the ruc and b specials


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    #66
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ironic thing is, that's was the main reason for the British army going in in the first place to protect the catholics from attack, then it went wrong! If the Army had been able to stay independant of the Unionist government they may have retained the respect they gained when they first arrived. I'm sure McA will add a thousand words or so to that!

    this is a total myth , an unrealistic and typically Irish misty eyed and sentimental view of events . The British army simply does not do sentimental , except perhaps in its propaganda . They were sent into restore the authority of the local administration who had totally lost control of the situation and put an end to civil disorder . And that is what they did , at the point of a gun if necessary . The atrocities they carried out and assisted and even ordered their native terrorist recruits to carry out got much worse after they dissolved the partition administration they were sent in to prop up . The only role they played was defence of the realm , not defence of Catholics .

    Unionists are a convenient scapegoat for the political abnormality Britain foisted upon Ireland and the inevitable repercussions of that strategy . Unionsists were directly encouraged by Britain to adopt the role of a garrison population and hold onto every inch of British territory in Ireland while keeping the natives under control . That is what they did to the best of their ability and they did it in the only manner in which it was possible to enforce the crime of partition upon an islands population . Unionists were tasked with keeping the lid on a British pressure cooker , and when the lid inevitably blew off it the British found it convenient to blame the paddies it had hired to do a very dirty job . Its not as if the place was in the middle of the pacific ocean . Britian knew damn well what was going on and why. Faced with a radicalised population the British army simply applied carrot and stick in persuit of defence of the realm .


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    #67
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Morlar wrote: »
    You could argue that this disparity was because the IRA/INLA had intelligence on udr, ruc and loyalist paramilitary units based on generations of guerrilla war experience - whereas the loyalist paramilitaries never had an official target or the intelligence network to tell them who was who - but the reasons are beside the point. The point is the loyalist paramilitaries were purely sectarian and the republicans for the most part were not.


    you couldnt argue that at all , as very many loyalist paramilitaries were also members of the RUC and UDR with daily access to all the intelligence they could ever need . The wave of atrocities carried out both sides of the border and in the murder triangle in the mid 70s were done by members of the RUCs elite special patrol group accompanied by various UDR members with the assistance of British army intelligence and SAS members . And in the background they usually had the SAS and FRU/14th intel telling them what to do . Despite that the targets were overwhelmingly civilian and indiscriminate . As seen again 10 years later in the case of Brian Nelson , the British army agent who acted as the UDAs intelligence officer and directed those killer gangs almost exclusively to innocent catholic targets .


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    #68
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    this is a total myth , an unrealistic and typically Irish misty eyed and sentimental view of events . The British army simply does not do sentimental , except perhaps in its propaganda . They were sent into restore the authority of the local administration who had totally lost control of the situation and put an end to civil disorder . And that is what they did , at the point of a gun if necessary . The atrocities they carried out and assisted and even ordered their native terrorist recruits to carry out got much worse after they dissolved the partition administration they were sent in to prop up . The only role they played was defence of the realm , not defence of Catholics .

    Unionists are a convenient scapegoat for the political abnormality Britain foisted upon Ireland and the inevitable repercussions of that strategy . Unionsists were directly encouraged by Britain to adopt the role of a garrison population and hold onto every inch of British territory in Ireland while keeping the natives under control . That is what they did to the best of their ability and they did it in the only manner in which it was possible to enforce the crime of partition upon an islands population . Unionists were tasked with keeping the lid on a British pressure cooker , and when the lid inevitably blew off it the British found it convenient to blame the paddies it had hired to do a very dirty job . Its not as if the place was in the middle of the pacific ocean . Britian knew damn well what was going on and why. Faced with a radicalised population the British army simply applied carrot and stick in persuit of defence of the realm .

    Good post! After all that has been inflicted on the Irish people at the hands of the British Army throughout the years, I find it incredible the amount of people who still sing their praises at every opportunity, and still view them as some sort of benevolent force, here for the common good. This bizarre viewpoint that many South of the border hold is similar in many respects to Stockholm syndrome.

    Britain are in Ireland for what they can get out of Ireland, and you're right they have and will continue to disassociate themselves with Unionists in the future if the relationship produces any negative propaganda for them. Unionists are pawns in their game.


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    #69
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    This bizarre viewpoint that many South of the border hold is similar in many respects to Stockholm syndrome.

    .

    this bizarre viewpoint is a direct result of them being fed a constant barrage of propaganda for decades under a regime of utterly paranoid and hysterical censorship by a media under the control of the likes of Eoghan Harris and Conor Crusie OBrien . 2 thoroughly discredited propagandists and political extremists that very few would ever take seriously . For some bizarre reason it is still regarded as an enlightened viewpoint despite the somersaults of those who set this agenda in place . Laughable .
    These people made RTE what it is today . A national joke .


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    #70
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    this bizarre viewpoint is a direct result of them being fed a constant barrage of propaganda for decades under a regime of utterly paranoid and hysterical censorship by a media under the control of the likes of Eoghan Harris and Conor Crusie OBrien . 2 thoroughly discredited propagandists and political extremists that very few would ever take seriously . For some bizarre reason it is still regarded as an enlightened viewpoint despite the somersaults of those who set this agenda in place . Laughable .
    These people made RTE what it is today . A national joke .

    Absolutely. These polemicists still spout their propaganda in the Sindo today, along with RD Edwards, Brendan O Connor et al who are just an embarrassment to journalism. (Not that i read that rag anymore) Bashing the Shinners and Republicans in general is oh so trendy and indeed progressive, a sign of a mature nation don't you know. :rolleyes:

    Of course they still wheel out the likes of Harris for various programs such as RTE's recent Hidden History. The Murders at Coolacrease program was typical Harris revisionism, turning what could have been an interesting and informative program into his personal views that Protestants were ethnically cleansed in the midlands. What a moron! :rolleyes: Thankfully people see through this idiot, with threads both here in the H&H section, and in politics.ie after that show lambasting the fool! Who said internet forums are a waste of time. :)


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    #71
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Britain are in Ireland for what they can get out of Ireland,

    all the oil? the gold mines? what exactly is it that you think Britain gets out of Ireland apart from a hole in it's bank balance?


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    #72
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    all the oil? the gold mines? what exactly is it that you think Britain gets out of Ireland apart from a hole in it's bank balance?

    We'll they've been here for the last 800 years, and they've still no intentions of leaving, so i'd say there must be something it in for them. Why don't they up and head back across the Irish sea if theres nothing it in for them except 'a hole in it's back balance'?


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It would collapse if they did that! & the republic is unable to financially support it.
    The IRA & friends were so successful in destroying the economy during the "troubles" that there isn't a viable economy there now!


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    #74
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    all the oil? the gold mines? what exactly is it that you think Britain gets out of Ireland apart from a hole in it's bank balance?

    well for starters southern Ireland is the UKs fifth biggest trade export destination . Its also the only one in which Britain has a trade surplus . From 1981 to 1990 Britains trade surplus with the south of Ireland stood at £6.5 billion , not bad money in those days . I dont have the current figures to hand but Id imagine with massive growth in British firms such as Tescos and Irish high streets looking increasingly like Milton Keynes and the increased spending power of the southern Irish population and the like its increased considerably from 1990 .

    As regards our oil , well yes , British business has managed to secure that . 2 years ago Sir Anthony OReilly and his British based company Providence Resources struck a 16.5 billion pounds sterling deal with Exxon Mobil to extract Irelands oil resources off the porcupine basin . In that basin alone Exxon stand to pump millions of barrels of oil and trillions of cubic square feet of natural gas . They pay a British company for the privilege and not the Irish people . This British company currently owns all the offshore rights to our oil . Apart that is from the rights owned by British company Shell , who are currently attempting to extract further billions in our natural gas resources and dont have to pay the Irish people any tax or royalties for it . The Irish taxpayer also has to pick up the tab for shells expenses . This all of course , woth billions upon billions . And we wont see a penny ofit . Due to the unique and freidnly relationship between our 2 countries British companies taking our oil and gas arent required to pay tax or royalties .

    By the way shell bought the rights to Irish resources from an oil company owned by Denis Thatcher .

    so far the countrys only goldmine in Gortin , county tyrone , Irish territory occupied by Britain , is not owned by A british company but a canadian one . Who bought it from a British company . The tyrone mine is estimated to be worth £256 million . There appears to be substantial gold deposits straddling the border which will be extracted in good time . Like the border it isnt going anywhere .

    You are also probably unaware that in the post war 1940s as Britain adjusted to the realities of its new relationship with the world it commissioned a report on Ireland , bearing in mind the southern state had just declared itself a republic a year earlier in defiance of the treaty . Prior to this people born anywhere in Ieland were automatically considerd British citizens by Britain ( Sir Anthony OReilly being one such person) . The 1949 governemnt report Ireland Report by British government officials (1st January ) asserted that: “So far as could be foreseen, it will never be to Great Britain’s advantage that Northern Ireland should form part of a territory outside His Majesty.s jurisdiction”. (1 January 1949 CAB 29/32)

    This position is borne out Professor GR Sloan , Deputy Head of Strategic Studies and International Affairs Department at the Britannia Royal Naval College in Dartmouth . Professor Sloan is Britians foremost expert on military geopolitics . Sloan is a senior advsior to the British military , one of their top strategic experts and is often loaned out to assit the US navy in its long term strategic planning . In his book The Geopolitics of Anglo-Irish Relations in the 20th Century, (Leicester University Press, London & Washington, 1997).[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] sloan quotes the 1949 report and makes the claim its as relevant in post GFA anglo Irish relationships as it was post WW2 .[/FONT]

    However, as confirmed by the (British) government Green Paper in 1972, Northern Ireland was still seen as important in terms of ensuring the security of the United Kingdom from the threat of physical invasion. ... Yet the ending of the Cold War has not spelt the end of potential threats to the security of the United Kingdom and consequently has resulted in a potential increase in the strategic importance of Ireland: The collapse of the Soviet Union merely means the lack of only one ideological challenge to democratic capitalism. Outside the West religion still inspires universal claims and genocidal loyalties; the passing of European wars of religion has not ended religious war. Nationalism remains deep-rooted even in the placid and opulent industrial societies of Western Europe. In societies born in poverty from the debris of empires great and small, the national cult retains all its primitive force. The future is not an object of knowledge, but it has been shown that with respect to Ireland, geopolitical patterns of the past can have relevance to the future (Sloan, 1997, page 295 )

    Sloans take on the necessity for the Defence of the Realm was also supported by Brigadier Michael Jackson , Britians top soldier in his keynote Dimbleby lecture last year , where he essentially agreed with sloans thesis as if it were his own . Ireland is stategically important to Britain and always will be .


    So thats pretty much it . Its simply not in Britians interests to relinquish control and influence throughout Ireland , according to the British themselves . Anyone claiming they are pouring in billions to support 900,000 unionists out of the goodness of their hearts isnt really taking a serious view of the situation . Britian is run by pretty rational people and that would be pretty irrational . Countries act first and foremost in their own interests


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    #75
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    800 years of opression! 800 YEARS! >_< RGGRAAAAAAARRGGHHHH....
    The Act of Union 1800 united the Kingdom of Great Britain with the Kingdom of Ireland, which had been gradually brought under English control between 1541 and 1691, to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801

    Oh wait... ****. That's right... I've never read any history that wasn't written by "The Wolfe Tones."

    Guess I'd better go blow up some kids and sell drugs...


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    #76
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    passive wrote: »
    800 years of opression! 800 YEARS! >_< RGGRAAAAAAARRGGHHHH....

    Oh wait... ****. That's right... I've never read any history that wasn't written by "The Wolfe Tones."

    Guess I'd better go blow up some kids and sell drugs...
    Are you supposed to be making some point here ?? Your so turned off by nationalism due to - SHOCK AND HORROR.... THE BOMBING OF MOUNTBATTEN, ENNISKILLEN, WARRINGTON, RGGRAAAAAAARRGGHHHH....
    Come on, give us a Bono type chest beating of how the horrors of the IRA has turned you against nationalism etc, etc :rolleyes:

    Or your just trying to by a funny guy. Don't bother pal, your probably the only one in the world who thinks your 'funny' comments are 'funny'. So do us a favour and give it up.

    " Guess I'd better go blow up some kids " Well, an army that would suit you much better for blowing up kids is the british army as their doing plenty of that in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment, but sure when it's done by the british army it'll be A OK with you wouldn't it ;)


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    #77
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It would collapse if they did that! & the republic is unable to financially support it.
    The IRA & friends were so successful in destroying the economy during the "troubles" that there isn't a viable economy there now!

    Well ofcourse the thick Paddys wouldn't be able to run a united Ireland, just like when the british claimed that if the Egyptians took over the Suez canal all they'd be able to do with it was grow potatoes along it's banks. What an arrogant bunch of b@stards.

    But thanks for the back handed compliment of " The IRA & friends were so successful in destroying the economy ". It's a central tatctic of guerilla warfare to make the occupation as economically unviable as possible. Pity the rest of the british cabinet didn't listen to Harold Wilson and support brit withdrawal in the early 70's and rid us of the cancer of british occupation.


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    McArmalite wrote: »
    " The IRA & friends were so successful in destroying the economy ". It's a central tatctic of guerilla warfare to make the occupation as economically unviable as possible.

    At least we agree on something :D


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    #79
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    The norths economy was going into serious decline prior to the IRA campaign . Its manufacturing base was suffering the same malaise as which occured in the UK . The artificial entity could only provide worthwhile jobs for one section of the population , in nationalised industries like the shipyard and governemnt jobs such as local councils and British telecom . Privatisation and the necessity for Britain to put real British jobs first cut the legs out from under the mainstays of the norths economy , not the IRA campaign . The northern governemnts idea of future planning was monstrosities and white elephants like Craigavon and motorways to the middle of nowhere. That was the ridiculous bag they put their eggs into before the provos were even heard of .
    While the IRAs campaign didnt exactly encourage investment neither did the place itself prior to that campaign taking place . The IRA campaign resulted in massive amounts of investment being poured into the place by Britian to prop the artificial entity up and secured employment for thousands of people in the security industry . Their wages in turn propped the rest of the economy up . Glaziers made a fortune in particular .
    The place has always had to be propped up . Itd be basket case regardless of the insurgency . Thats the reality of partition . South of the border partition ensured that the only industrialised sector of the island was seperated from the south whose mainstay was agriculture (thats why DeValera spent a fortune on drainage , economic necessity to increase GDP) The notion though that Ireland would be incapable of sustaining itself as an island is ridiculous . If half the time and effort spent propping up the division of the country was put into its prosperity thered be no doubt the place would be a success . As usual its the age old conservative , small minded culture of low expectations and lack of imagination which seeks to hold back progress on the island by a promoting the myth of disaster should a nationwide democracy be permitted on the island . Thats simply a flat earth outlook .


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    #80
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    passive wrote: »
    800 years of opression! 800 YEARS! >_< RGGRAAAAAAARRGGHHHH....



    Oh wait... ****. That's right... I've never read any history that wasn't written by "The Wolfe Tones."

    Guess I'd better go blow up some kids and sell drugs...

    what on earth is this ?


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    #81
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    We'll they've been here for the last 800 years, and they've still no intentions of leaving, so i'd say there must be something it in for them. Why don't they up and head back across the Irish sea if theres nothing it in for them except 'a hole in it's back balance'?

    In my opinion, there has been two things keeping Britain in Ireland over the last 30 years. The first was that an immediate pull out would create more bloodshed than Ireland has seen since 1922. The second is that for a British government to negotiate with terrorists would mean political suicide. Now there is peace, there is more appetite in Britain for a settlement, but there was a general feeling that Gerry Adams and the IRA would not be allowed to win.


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    #82
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    well for starters southern Ireland is the UKs fifth biggest trade export destination . Its also the only one in which Britain has a trade surplus . From 1981 to 1990 Britains trade surplus with the south of Ireland stood at £6.5 billion , not bad money in those days . I dont have the current figures to hand but Id imagine with massive growth in British firms such as Tescos and Irish high streets looking increasingly like Milton Keynes and the increased spending power of the southern Irish population and the like its increased considerably from 1990 .
    So, finally, Ireland has an economy and several large British multinationals are taking advantage. Cry me a river. wtf has that got to do with staying in NI?
    kreuzberger wrote: »
    As regards our oil , well yes , British business has managed to secure that . 2 years ago Sir Anthony OReilly and his British based company Providence Resources struck a 16.5 billion pounds sterling deal with Exxon Mobil to extract Irelands oil resources off the porcupine basin . In that basin alone Exxon stand to pump millions of barrels of oil and trillions of cubic square feet of natural gas . They pay a British company for the privilege and not the Irish people . This British company currently owns all the offshore rights to our oil . Apart that is from the rights owned by British company Shell , who are currently attempting to extract further billions in our natural gas resources and dont have to pay the Irish people any tax or royalties for it . The Irish taxpayer also has to pick up the tab for shells expenses . This all of course , woth billions upon billions . And we wont see a penny ofit . Due to the unique and freidnly relationship between our 2 countries British companies taking our oil and gas arent required to pay tax or royalties .

    By the way shell bought the rights to Irish resources from an oil company owned by Denis Thatcher .
    and the reason why Britain remains in Ireland is what exactly? It looks like your own government is at fault there.
    kreuzberger wrote: »
    so far the countrys only goldmine in Gortin , county tyrone , Irish territory occupied by Britain , is not owned by A british company but a canadian one . Who bought it from a British company . The tyrone mine is estimated to be worth £256 million . There appears to be substantial gold deposits straddling the border which will be extracted in good time . Like the border it isnt going anywhere .
    so it's gold we're after now is it? it's usually oil:rolleyes:
    kreuzberger wrote: »
    blah blah strategic importance

    Well at least that explains why the Royal Navy keeps a large fleet in Larne and the RAF keep a squadron of Typhoons in Derry then.

    Maybe they were just talking about if Ireland changed allegiances or was invaded. France is strategically important too, maybe we should reclaim normandy?

    You have raised some very interesting facts there, but you are putting two and two together and making five. It is really quite simple, Britain does not want Northern Ireland, it is just a pain in the arse handing it back.


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    #83
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    kreuzberger
    Quote:
    what on earth is this ?

    Just a light hearted and somewhat facetious take on the ignorant and childish up the 'ra mentality that so many people on this forum are sporting, that doesn't take into account actual history (the "800 years" figure was actually used a few posts back there :), can't imagine ever mentioning such a laughable number in any way other that to tease my English friends for ruthlessly oppressing me!) never minding the ability to separate the past from the present or look at history objectively (i.e. They, the past British in empirical times did these bad things, they, irish nationalists did those things, they, Unionist terrorists did these awful things, they, Irish Republicans, did those awful things.) I , a seperate entity look at those things and don't tie myself in with a cause and ignore all the wrongs and evils of my side, while demonising the enemy and screaming about every wrong ever done to us.

    You 'people' don't give a **** about the actual lives of those living in the North, or about peace and prosperity. If the population up there was 98% unionist you'd want to invade it and "take it back" 'cos it's part of "our island" once ruled by our ancient and noble high kings, or whatever BS hypothetical united nation of Ireland exists in your "Brits ruined everything, ever, even before they existed" view of history.
    McArmalite " Guess I'd better go blow up some kids " Well, an army that would suit you much better for blowing up kids is the british army as their doing plenty of that in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment, but sure when it's done by the british army it'll be A OK with you wouldn't it

    No, really, just no. I don't like the blowing up of kids. I don't blindly (or indeed at all) support or idolise the British army. I don't justify the murder of civilians and I sure as hell don't rationalise it and ignore the figures pushed into my face to make a war of black vs. white, good vs, evil, Erin go Brath, Tiocfaidh ar lá etc... If i blew up kids in an army I'd expected to be punished, not patted on the back by people like you and gotten out of jail for political bargaining reasons.

    also, your & you're.
    Their, they're & there.
    all different words.

    I'm not sticking around here. Half the people in this thread are completely mentally f*cked and a danger to this world. You seem to know only the **** we were raised on and most of us grew out of, the anti-Brit tunnel vision that was born (arguably with justification) during the troubles and has, sadly, festered and carried on into modern times. Good luck, I hope you never get to any position of power or to hold any weapons. You are why civilians get killed for abstract ideas and lines on a map. Jesus.. your f*cking screen name is "McArmalite." -_-


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    #84
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    please deal with actual facts and points stated.Britain stated very cateogorically they cannot forsee any eventuality in which its in Britains own interests to withdraw from Ireland . Their own strategic considerations are what they base them on . Not the worry of bloodshed , point out to any instance of Britain refusing to withdraw from a colony on the basis the natives might do each other harm .
    .
    your only making yourself look bad by refusuing to deal with the actual issues and making up alternative explanations off the top of your head .
    Well at least that explains why the Royal Navy keeps a large fleet in Larne and the RAF keep a squadron of Typhoons in Derry then.

    No , the royal navy maintains its ships in derry while the RAF maintain its aircraft at aldergrove . The British military intelligence services last year diverted 15 % of their overall resources , operatives and funding to the massive new base they are constructing in Holywood
    Maybe they were just talking about if Ireland changed allegiances or was invaded.
    no, they are consistently talking about Ireland as it currently exists and is likely to exist as far as they foresee. What allegiances are you referring to though . Irelands a military neutral country and not a member of nato .
    France is strategically important too, maybe we should reclaim normandy?

    France , not only a NATO ally , has the military strength to repel Britain . If it didnt NATO would , as is their policy regarding anyone who attacks a NATO member . It would also be thrown out of the EU amd subject to UN sanctions . Ireland is a small island that unfortunately doesnt possess the ability to remove Britian and its influence ..
    You have raised some very interesting facts there,

    then try addressing them instead of blindly ignoring them
    but you are putting two and two together and making five.

    no , im merely spelling out what British governemnt reports and British military strategic planners and senior military officers have to say about why Britian must remian in Ireland , and why they themselves cannot foresee a situation in which t would be in their own interest to leave .
    It is really quite simple, Britain does not want Northern Ireland, it is just a pain in the arse handing it back.

    right . Please tell me where they have stated this . It sounds more like something some bloke in a pub told you as opposed to anything based on factual or political reality .
    In my opinion, there has been two things keeping Britain in Ireland over the last 30 years. The first was that an immediate pull out would create more bloodshed than Ireland has seen since 1922.

    Ah , the unruly savage natives natives , white mans burden argument . Britian was instrumental in the blodshed which occured in 1922 . In the south it armed one section with artillery and ordered them to open fore on their countrymen with it or theyd reinvade the south .
    In Belfast Fieldmarshall sir henry wilson was organising the armed gangs , which Britian armed , which were committing pogroms and ethnic cleansing .
    That is why Wilson was tracked down and executed .
    If Britian was worried about people in modern Ireland killing each other than one would question why their intelligence services imported tonnes of weaponry from apartheid south africa in the mid 1980s and distributed it to loyalist paramilitary groups .

    nobody asked them to pull out overnight . Republicans only ever demanded a decalaration of intent to withdraw to permit interim peace talks to take place between all sectors of society on the island on how it would be structured when that withdrawal came . 5, ten and even 20 year timeframes were considered acceptable if that firm declaration of intent was given .


    The second is that for a British government to negotiate with terrorists would mean political suicide. Now there is peace, there is more appetite in Britain for a settlement, but there was a general feeling that Gerry Adams and the IRA would not be allowed to win.




    The British governemnt flew the IRA leadership over to London for negotations in 1972 . There was no secret about it . It negotiated again in the mid 1970s . On neither occasion did it prove suicidal for the governemnts involved .

    The general feeling that the IRA would never be allowed to win was a natural reaction in light of the fact Britian has made clear it has no intentions of leaving Ireland as its not in their own selfish interests to do so .


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    #85
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    passive wrote: »
    Just a light hearted and somewhat facetious take on the ignorant and childish up the 'ra mentality that so many people on this forum are sporting, that doesn't take into account actual history (the "800 years" figure was actually used a few posts back there :), can't imagine ever mentioning such a laughable number in any way other that to tease my English friends for ruthlessly oppressing me!) never minding the ability to separate the past from the present or look at history objectively (i.e. They, the past British in empirical times did these bad things, they, irish nationalists did those things, they, Unionist terrorists did these awful things, they, Irish Republicans, did those awful things.) I , a seperate entity look at those things and don't tie myself in with a cause and ignore all the wrongs and evils of my side, while demonising the enemy and screaming about every wrong ever done to us.

    so you see yourself as seperate from the country you inhabit ? you have no concern for the fate of theirs or the manner in which your society is run ?
    You 'people' don't give a **** about the actual lives of those living in the North, or about peace and prosperity
    .

    I live in the north , born and brough up here
    If the population up there was 98% unionist you'd want to invade it and "take it back" 'cos it's part of "our island" once ruled by our ancient and noble high kings,

    you cant invade your own country . The population isnt 98% unionist in the 6 counties or anything like it , so you appear to be making up alternative scenarios in order to avoid addressing the issue
    or whatever BS hypothetical united nation of Ireland exists in your "Brits ruined everything, ever, even before they existed" view of history.

    well compared to your hypothetical 98% unionist country its actually based on a semblance of fact . But again you appear to be belittling the view that Britian is not a positive influence within this country and a nationwide democracy would be preferable to partition , division and the subjection of nationwide democracy to foreign vetoes .


    No, really, just no. I don't like the blowing up of kids. I don't blindly (or indeed at all) support or idolise the British army. I don't justify the murder of civilians and I sure as hell don't rationalise it and ignore the figures pushed into my face to make a war of black vs. white, good vs, evil, Erin go Brath, Tiocfaidh ar lá etc... If i blew up kids in an army I'd expected to be punished, not patted on the back by people like you and gotten out of jail for political bargaining reasons.

    British paratropers were decorated by the queen for their work in derry on Bloody sunday , when kids were slaughtered . British military intelligence were behind the 3 no warning car bombs in rush hour dublin and a 4th in monaghan in which many children were killed . Your police force saw fit not to investigate this , your governemnt saw fit not to persue the issue . They still cover it up . They harrassed the victims of those bombs for 30 years and refused to assist them in any manner . Took them to court even to prevent an enquiry .
    This is due to the negative influence of British interests in this country taking precedence over the interests of the society you inhabit and people you live alongside . If you regard this as an acceptable state of affairs Id be of the opinion you are extremely alienated from society . To blame it on the wolfe tomes is just outragous


    I'm not sticking around here. Half the people in this thread are completely mentally f*cked and a danger to this world.

    if they were to start saying they believed another country had weapons of mass destruction that could be used on Ireland in 15 minutes and we should kill people on the basis of that lie that would be probably true . However the people who actually do stuff like that are the Brtish governemnt . You seem to regard it as unimportant they occupy one part of this country and have great influence over the running of , and sometimes even take a notion to bomb , the other part .
    You seem to know only the **** we were raised on and most of us grew out of, the anti-Brit tunnel vision that was born (arguably with justification) during the troubles and has, sadly, festered and carried on into modern times.

    if Britian stopped occupying part of our country perhaps peoples view of them would generally improve . People are funny like that .
    Good luck, I hope you never get to any position of power or to hold any weapons. You are why civilians get killed for abstract ideas and lines on a map. Jesus.. your f*cking screen name is "McArmalite."

    sometimes they get killed when Britian decides to shoot them , bomb them , arm death squds with south african weapon shipments , occupy their country .


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    #86
    guinnessdrinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭guinnessdrinker


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Now there is peace, there is more appetite in Britain for a settlement, but there was a general feeling that Gerry Adams and the IRA would not be allowed to win.

    I would hope there is a feeling in Britain for a settlement but it shouldn't falter just because the British people or politicians don't want one side to "win".

    What I mean is it should come down to I hope, that they would like to see what is best for their neighbouring country. No winning side or losing side.


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    #87
    kreuzberger
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭kreuzberger


    according to the British it is settled , there already has been a settlement . The constitutional status of 6 Irish counties is British territory and thats that .


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    #88
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    The norths economy was going into serious decline prior to the IRA campaign . Its manufacturing base was suffering the same malaise as which occured in the UK . The artificial entity could only provide worthwhile jobs for one section of the population , in nationalised industries like the shipyard and governemnt jobs such as local councils and British telecom . Privatisation and the necessity for Britain to put real British jobs first cut the legs out from under the mainstays of the norths economy , not the IRA campaign . The northern governemnts idea of future planning was monstrosities and white elephants like Craigavon and motorways to the middle of nowhere. That was the ridiculous bag they put their eggs into before the provos were even heard of .
    While the IRAs campaign didnt exactly encourage investment neither did the place itself prior to that campaign taking place . The IRA campaign resulted in massive amounts of investment being poured into the place by Britian to prop the artificial entity up and secured employment for thousands of people in the security industry . Their wages in turn propped the rest of the economy up . Glaziers made a fortune in particular .
    The place has always had to be propped up . Itd be basket case regardless of the insurgency . Thats the reality of partition . South of the border partition ensured that the only industrialised sector of the island was seperated from the south whose mainstay was agriculture (thats why DeValera spent a fortune on drainage , economic necessity to increase GDP) The notion though that Ireland would be incapable of sustaining itself as an island is ridiculous . If half the time and effort spent propping up the division of the country was put into its prosperity thered be no doubt the place would be a success . As usual its the age old conservative , small minded culture of low expectations and lack of imagination which seeks to hold back progress on the island by a promoting the myth of disaster should a nationwide democracy be permitted on the island . Thats simply a flat earth outlook .
    If half the time and effort spent propping up the division of the country was put into its prosperity thered be no doubt the place would be a success . As usual its the age old conservative , small minded culture of low expectations and lack of imagination which seeks to hold back progress on the island by a promoting the myth of disaster should a nationwide democracy be permitted on the island .

    Exactly, never a truer word said. The thing about those who reject the Republican desires to see an indepenent free Ireland to pursue the best interests of the Irish people as best as we see it, is that they cann't hardly do anything without sheepishly looking over their shoulder for approval from the usual circles, the unionists and britian. And then their the ones who accuse nationalists and republicans of - lack of wishing to move foward !!!!.


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    #89
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,994 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Just as a matter of interest. What was the feeling in the Republic when the Welfare State kicked off in the UK in 1948. Free education and free health service. I know that a lot of Irish doctors and nurses became a part of the NHS, but how was the news played here to the people who still had to fork out for medical treatment?


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    #90
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Just as a matter of interest. What was the feeling in the Republic when the Welfare State kicked off in the UK in 1948. Free education and free health service. I know that a lot of Irish doctors and nurses became a part of the NHS, but how was the news played here to the people who still had to fork out for medical treatment?
    I'd say most of us, ( and that even includes me !!! ) weren't around to remember that !!!!


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    #91
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    kreuzberger wrote: »
    .......Ah , the unruly savage natives natives , white mans burden argument . Britian was instrumental in the blodshed which occured in 1922 . In the south it armed one section with artillery and ordered them to open fore on their countrymen with it or theyd reinvade the south .
    In Belfast Fieldmarshall sir henry wilson was organising the armed gangs , which Britian armed , which were committing pogroms and ethnic cleansing .
    That is why Wilson was tracked down and executed .
    If Britian was worried about people in modern Ireland killing each other than one would question why their intelligence services imported tonnes of weaponry from apartheid south africa in the mid 1980s and distributed it to loyalist paramilitary groups ...........

    The British governemnt flew the IRA leadership over to London for negotations in 1972 . There was no secret about it . It negotiated again in the mid 1970s . On neither occasion did it prove suicidal for the governemnts involved.
    Ah yes , you'll find the ' bearing the white man's burden amongst the unruly savage natives ' theme coming up yet again and again and again with our favourite unionist from England. Not just on Ireland but also anywhere else that had the misfortune of british occupation.

    Example - the India and Pakistan thread, regarding the internal troubles Pakistan is having - Fred " Maybe the answer to Pakistan’s problems is breaking it up further, along tribal borders or even merging parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan to create a new nation . MY Reply - "Here we go again. Trying to portray the partition of India as " britain knows best what's good for the natives....bearing the white man's burden etc " Once again it's head in the sand time, britian knows best, our boys can do no wrong..." http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055178096&page=3

    As for the "British government to negotiate with terrorists" ( a lie and outright contraction if ever there was one as britian obviously been possibly the worst terrorist state in history ), they also could talk to the IRA 24 hours after was it Patrick Mayhew stated that it would turn his stomach to talk to the IRA. Or for that matter the isreali terrorist Menachem Begin respondcible for bombing the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, deliberatly murdering 91 completely innocent people staying there. The british had a 'dead-or-alive' bounty of £10,000 on his head after Irgun threatened 'a campaign of terror against British officials', saying they would kill Sir John Shaw, Britain's Chief Secretary in Palestine. Same country had no problem later meeting him in London and selling him weapons.

    As for sir henry wilson, he was born and reared in Ballinalee Co. Longford. A unionist bigot to the marrow, shot dead post treaty on the orders of Micheal Collins. Since it was post treaty, does that make Micheal Collins part of the 'baddie' IRA and a 'terrorist' ??


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