What cliches and stereotypes do you hate

Livvie · 19-12-2007 07:50PM #1

I'm writing a novel (in collaboration with a friend in Canada, which isn't easy!) and two of our main characters are Irish, and the first third of the book is set in Ireland.

We want to avoid the pitfalls of stereotypes and cliches, and I think we have (i.e. no one says "Top of the morning"

), but to be on the safe side, could I ask for opinions please, on what the Irish hate to see in Irish characterisations.

It will be much appreciated, thank you.

Black Swan · 19-12-2007 08:47PM

People who claim to be Irish, but were not born in Ireland?

Hivemind187 · 19-12-2007 09:44PM

That everyone in Ireland speaks as if they fell out of a Roddy Doyle novel. Or that all south siders say things like "Roight" and have names like "Oisin" and "Fiacra".

Oh ... and the pig under the arm bit is a little old too.

Livvie · 19-12-2007 09:57PM

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Oh ... and the pig under the arm bit is a little old too.

Oh darn..I'll have to get rid of that bit then.

I'd really like someone to read it through for me, but at the moment it's being "cleaned" - apart from which, I'd be quite nervous about it!

Brook11 · 19-12-2007 11:29PM

Too much drinking! Everyone drinking Guinness.. Everyone living on Farms....Everyone or Anyone being called "Paddy" ..... Everyone being Funny!.... Everyone speaking with thick Oirish accents.... just for starters

Livvie · 19-12-2007 11:44PM

Brook11 wrote: »

Too much drinking! Everyone drinking Guinness.. Everyone living on Farms....Everyone or Anyone being called "Paddy" ..... Everyone being Funny!.... Everyone speaking with thick Oirish accents.... just for starters

When you say everyone speaking with thick Oirish accents - do you mean spelling it as though they are, or describing it as such? We've made a brief reference to a "gentle brogue" - is that OK?

We've got no Paddys, but a reference to a Pat.

No one living on a farm.

The only Guinness drinker has been an Englishman on a visit to Dublin who felt he should.

claire h · 20-12-2007 01:30PM

Livvie wrote: »

We've made a brief reference to a "gentle brogue"

That would be a much-hated cliche. 'Lilting tones' is another one to avoid.

Livvie · 20-12-2007 07:49PM

claire h wrote: »

That would be a much-hated cliche. 'Lilting tones' is another one to avoid.

It's from the thoughts of an Englishman, listening to his estranged son speak, and being reminded of his late wife. Is it best not to describe it at all?

I really appreciate this input - thank you.

flibbertyjibbet · 22-12-2007 05:40PM

Also PLEASE don't write that all the irish people have green eyes, freckles and/or red hair!(this includes everyone having "sandy" or "copper" hair!)

Karlusss · 23-12-2007 12:56AM

The problem is, a lot of the clichés are still true observations. I'm related to backwards farmers who I've seen carry lambs around under their arms, people drink Guinness all the time and people from various places have thick accents.

So there's no point in portraying a really sterile suburban Ireland just because boards.ie told you to.

That said, DO NOT call any Irish accent a "brogue". It is an Irish accent, not a brogue. A bróg is a shoe.

Livvie · 23-12-2007 01:16AM

Karlusss wrote: »

The problem is, a lot of the clichés are still true observations. I'm related to backwards farmers who I've seen carry lambs around under their arms, people drink Guinness all the time and people from various places have thick accents.

So there's no point in portraying a really sterile suburban Ireland just because boards.ie told you to.

That said, DO NOT call any Irish accent a "brogue". It is an Irish accent, not a brogue. A bróg is a shoe.

Well all in all, I think I'm not doing too badly.

We have one redhead, but that's because we wanted her to be a redhead! She does have green eyes, but no freckles. No redheaded Irishmen at all.

Our "lead" Irishman has dark hair and blue eyes - and that's because we have a thing for men with dark hair and blue eyes!

That's an interesting point about "brogue" though, and thank you for it.

It's true that all cliches are based on some kind of fact..I guess the idea is not to over do it. It probably applies to all nationalities to some degree, and you just have to not overdo the fact and generalise?

23-12-2007 02:28PM

I guess it also depends on where in Ireland this story is going to be set.

That always amused me highly, the first time I heard the word "brogue" and thought, "what in the hell does an accent have to do with a shoe?"

Livvie · 30-12-2007 10:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess it also depends on where in Ireland this story is going to be set.

That always amused me highly, the first time I heard the word "brogue" and thought, "what in the hell does an accent have to do with a shoe?"

Well in this instance, it's used as the thoughts of an Englishman, and so is probably realistic, and the word does also mean a strong regional accent. But it will only get one appearance now.

Thanks again for the advice.

markw999 · 03-01-2008 07:29PM

The stereotype of ridiculously camp gay men personally annoys the crap outta me

4diarmuid · 05-01-2008 01:21PM

Karluss has gotten it about right. The reason something becomes a cliche is that it was in common circulation. The difficulty is that it now may be past its sell-by date. But the common Irish cliches still hold true. We do drink a lot of pints yet we still get annoyed when foreign broadcasters show a packed Doheny and Nesbitts with pints all round. It's a guilt thing we share with the Jews. We also drink a lot of wine; increasingly so. Not just in Dublin 4. I gave the binman a bottle of wine for Christmas and he was well versed in the chateaux and the quality of what I was giving. Things have changed and are still doing so.

I'm just back from a country funeral in Clare where there was a terrific mix of accents, from my cousin of 65 who still says Sshtheem for Steam but his children who are spread widely throughout Europe and the US have neutral accents.

Relax Livvie. Continue to write as you feel but be conscious of generalisation. Have your redhead and your freckles but avoid the "all the girls had freckles situation". I would say pint not Guinness as there are other brewers although the pint is traditionally a Guinness although you'd get an argument in Cork.

I have written for radio and have a completed novel set in Ireland the Netherlands and Europe and had it checked out by persons in each country for authenticity. I had glaring errors they picked up on and now it's the better for it.

Good luck with your writing.

If you want an objective opinion on a chapter or section I'd be happy to help. PM me if you wish.

Regards

Jack Quinn · 18-01-2008 02:04PM

Livvie wrote: »

I'm writing a novel (in collaboration with a friend in Canada, which isn't easy!) and two of our main characters are Irish, and the first third of the book is set in Ireland.

We want to avoid the pitfalls of stereotypes and cliches, and I think we have (i.e. no one says "Top of the morning" ), but to be on the safe side, could I ask for opinions please, on what the Irish hate to see in Irish characterisations.

It will be much appreciated, thank you.

I'm surprised no one is helping you out with this...
Stereotypes are there for a reason, but within reason; ie. pipe-smoking squinty-eyed cattle-thieving stage Irish rogues might be a bit OTT.

but in my opinion we are all characatures of ourselves and typical in one way or another-especially in class-ridden ireland, where we are square pegs bred in square holes, never to deviate.
for characters i tended to get inspiration from the people around me a lot when i started out. Jane Austen always said write what you know. it works in the early days anyway- not that i'm a seasoned pro or anything.
just be your own toughest critic; if you don't buy it, then very few others are likely to.
best of luck anyway.
jack

Livvie · 18-01-2008 08:31PM

Jack Quinn wrote: »

I'm surprised no one is helping you out with this...
Stereotypes are there for a reason, but within reason; ie. pipe-smoking squinty-eyed cattle-thieving stage Irish rogues might be a bit OTT.

but in my opinion we are all characatures of ourselves and typical in one way or another-especially in class-ridden ireland, where we are square pegs bred in square holes, never to deviate.
for characters i tended to get inspiration from the people around me a lot when i started out. Jane Austen always said write what you know. it works in the early days anyway- not that i'm a seasoned pro or anything.
just be your own toughest critic; if you don't buy it, then very few others are likely to.
best of luck anyway.
jack

Thanks, Jack.

I'm really happy with the response I've had - it all helps.

I appreciate your comments and they've gone in my notebook. I guess the worst thing is, I'm not really writing about what I know - a lot of it is down to instinct. Travellers feature quite heavily and I really hope that we've done a good job with that, as I've had trouble finding good books about Traveller lifestyle and culture. And a lot of the movies I've watched are kind of stereotypical.

I did watch Pavee Lackeen, and guess that was accurate as it was more of a documentary.

Thanks again - much appreciated.

When I'm published, everyone will get a mention.

Birdofthread · 24-01-2008 01:05AM

can i say loads? ah well, you dont have to read it...

Late 30's newly divorced/abandoned high-flying woman in supposedly semi-glamourous job like journalism or advertising leaves dublin for the west of ireland [insert other location here] and reinvents herself with the business venture/life she always wanted and finds love with some scruffy(er than her) supposedly alternative type or really wealthy man. - though i suppose thats rather an amalgamation of cliches regularly written by Irish writers too...
The "West of Ireland" is a bit of a self-perpetuating myth. lovely places there and all over ireland but still....liscannor/lahinch for example are not very romantic places....
Also we have tv in the country. often the internet. and a lot of old people are quite up to date too...also tattoos and piercings and knowledge of multiple languages....
Beware of who you ask for bad things. everybody is prejudiced against someone...See: “I'm related to backwards farmers who I've seen carry lambs around under their arms” Thats not backwards thats practical, should they carry lambs with robots maybe? Have carried lambs in the back of the car too...
Indeed, please dont have "brogue" or 'Lilting tones'. You should hear some of the accents- nothing gentle there....Or bring nuns into the story in uneccessary ways...Or construct weird "ah sure and begorrah arent you just after going to the shop me lad" kind of sentences...Or only have city people use correct grammar.
If you ever see this good luck with the cross-continental book.
Oh yeah, and everyone doesnt really think everyone is related to someone they know.

maninamousesuit · 28-01-2008 02:03AM

Simplify your problem. Find an irishman and workshop the words. By him a pint of creme de menthe in a bistro and away with ye! No seriousley. I wrote a short story and was accused of brogue but the character was based on my cousin and i got all his inflections and words directly from him. It just seems weird when it is written down. Someone contacted me when i was travelling in israel and asked me to speak lines from a novel in progress. It was a hoot but it made sense.
Ok here is a joke for you.
An irishman goes looking for a job on a building site and the foreman was not sure he had the skills. He said "Im not sure you would be any use here..Ill bet you dont know the difference between a joist and a girder."
"Thats easy", said the job-seeker "Joyce wote Ulysses and Goethe wrote Faust!"
Good luck
The maninamousesuit has spoken:D

elshambo · 29-01-2008 02:29AM

Livvie wrote: »

It's from the thoughts of an Englishman, listening to his estranged son speak, and being reminded of his late wife. Is it best not to describe it at all?

I really appreciate this input - thank you.

Move here for 6 weeks or so!
Cant afford that? a few trips to the place the son/wife is supposed to be from
flights are cheap.

"The truth about the Irish" by Terry Eagleton dispells a few myths and is a decent read

As for the accent, only call it a lilt if it is a lilt, not many of then about outside of 50's movies starring yanks, had a woman from enniskillen describe my accent as lilting(however its spelt), i broke my h*le laughing
Estranged son speaking to an english dad, hatefull might just about cover it esp if son is from munster lol
Depending on how estranged the kid would probably have a slightly english accent anyhu?
most irish kids sound like the were born about 1000 miles out to sea in the direction of america

As for the redhead, dont use that as a device to say she has a temper, thats been done to death

Dont do an eastenders on it or you may be on the end of an Irish Fatwa
& whatever you do, do not watch Irish soaps!!!!!

er thats it

elshambo · 29-01-2008 02:55AM

Livvie wrote: »

Thanks, Jack.

I'm really happy with the response I've had - it all helps.

I appreciate your comments and they've gone in my notebook. I guess the worst thing is, I'm not really writing about what I know - a lot of it is down to instinct. Travellers feature quite heavily and I really hope that we've done a good job with that, as I've had trouble finding good books about Traveller lifestyle and culture. And a lot of the movies I've watched are kind of stereotypical.

I did watch Pavee Lackeen, and guess that was accurate as it was more of a documentary.

Thanks again - much appreciated.

When I'm published, everyone will get a mention.

And theres more...
The irish traveller council have a web site, cant remember if i can put up links or not so just google it, they would probably help or have books you could read
You WILL go into sterotype if writing about travellers, everyone does,
see the movie "Strength and Honour" its supposed to be awful(havent seen it because i used to know the director and think its best i dont) if you dont know travellers dont make it a huge part of the story just a part of the character, there are bits (as with every culture) that pavee lackeen would not cover but thats not for the likes of here
Good luck!

skateing dragon · 15-02-2008 07:31PM

Basically, if you want to avoid Irish cliches, avoid all you see in Hollywood Movies with Irish Characters.

I have not yet seen an American Movie with an "irish" character who sounds, looks or acts Irish.

The biggest pitfall is ..... Accent.
In every movie we sound Scottish, Welsh or "Loike a fermer from da cuntri boi".

I have never once heard any Irish person use the phrase "Top of the Morning" , the word "boi" or any of those cliche phrases.

Also is your character from The City? eg Dublin or from the country eg Cork or Wexford (I know people who live there may not consider that the country but excuse me as I am from Dublin so we usually do, sorry). Becuase lingo from the country is different to the city. Extremely different sometimes.

Also I only now about 3 people with "Irish" names that you see in Movies, such as Oision, Paddy, Patrick, Seamus or any of those typically cliche names.

And also in Movies or Books an Irish character is either a drunk, thug or farmer. Please broaden your scope and characterisation because this is extremely cliche and just irritating.

Hope that helps.

iguana · 29-02-2008 10:31PM

elshambo wrote: »

As for the accent, only call it a lilt if it is a lilt, not many of then about outside of 50's movies starring yanks, had a woman from enniskillen describe my accent as lilting(however its spelt), i broke my h*le laughing

Sorry, I have a v. neutral Irish accent, I live in London and often continental Europeans, Americans and Asians assume I'm English. But when I watched back some stuff I had to do for work on the BBC recently the strength of my Irish accent compared to the English people I was on screen with stunned me. The basic Irish accent certainly is lilting compared to many other accents.

skateing dragon wrote: »

Also is your character from The City? eg Dublin or from the country eg Cork or Wexford (I know people who live there may not consider that the country but excuse me as I am from Dublin so we usually do, sorry).

You do realise that the only place in or near Ireland known as The City is the financial district of London? And generally people from cities refer to their cities as town, with only country people calling it the city. But I guess as you come from Rathfarnam, which is an area in south county Dublin, you are not a city person and as such can be forgiven for the culchie speak.

McGinty · 01-03-2008 08:08PM

Hi Op

Can I recommend the Hiberno-english website, basically it gives you an idea of syntax and some irish expressions that are in use and some not in use, it may be worth you while to add authenticity. Just google the 'hiberno-english' website, good luck.

catmad · 02-03-2008 12:04AM

The flag flying rugger mums, Imelda

Livvie · 05-03-2008 08:48PM

skateing dragon wrote: »

Basically, if you want to avoid Irish cliches, avoid all you see in Hollywood Movies with Irish Characters.

I have not yet seen an American Movie with an "irish" character who sounds, looks or acts Irish.

The biggest pitfall is ..... Accent.
In every movie we sound Scottish, Welsh or "Loike a fermer from da cuntri boi".

I have never once heard any Irish person use the phrase "Top of the Morning" , the word "boi" or any of those cliche phrases.

Also is your character from The City? eg Dublin or from the country eg Cork or Wexford (I know people who live there may not consider that the country but excuse me as I am from Dublin so we usually do, sorry). Becuase lingo from the country is different to the city. Extremely different sometimes.

Also I only now about 3 people with "Irish" names that you see in Movies, such as Oision, Paddy, Patrick, Seamus or any of those typically cliche names.

And also in Movies or Books an Irish character is either a drunk, thug or farmer. Please broaden your scope and characterisation because this is extremely cliche and just irritating.

Hope that helps.

Our main Irish character is called Luke. He isn't a drunk, a thug or a farmer.

McGinty wrote: »

Hi Op

Can I recommend the Hiberno-english website, basically it gives you an idea of syntax and some irish expressions that are in use and some not in use, it may be worth you while to add authenticity. Just google the 'hiberno-english' website, good luck.

Thank you - I'm going to do that right now.

I know I keep saying it, but everyone's contribution is really appreciated.

Thanks again.

elshambo · 06-03-2008 12:31AM

iguana wrote: »

Sorry, I have a v. neutral Irish accent, I live in London and often continental Europeans, Americans and Asians assume I'm English. But when I watched back some stuff I had to do for work on the BBC recently the strength of my Irish accent compared to the English people I was on screen with stunned me. The basic Irish accent certainly is lilting compared to many other accents.

You do realise that the only place in or near Ireland known as The City is the financial district of London? And generally people from cities refer to their cities as town, with only country people calling it the city. But I guess as you come from Rathfarnam, which is an area in south county Dublin, you are not a city person and as such can be forgiven for the culchie speak.

I may have to take that back about the lilt, spent last week in london, women/girls on tube/ in pubs/resturants/ pretty much everywhere telling me they loved my accent, im moving over!

As for the county Dublin stuff, spot on, spent 4-5 years in Dublin, only ever got "culchie" nonsence from people who grew up surrounded by fields and tractors, a mate of mine from actual Dublin used to call them "knacker culchies" culchies who desperatly wanted to be townies, said he always preferred people from small towns as they knew who they were.
"country people calling it the city" better a suburbanite than a country boy? lol

anyhu Livvie
Stay out of london pubs like O'Neills, not Irish, just offensive!
U been to Ireland since you started writing?

skateing dragon · 07-03-2008 01:56AM

Well I only called it the City cos the person asking about cliches isn't from ireland and if I refered to it as 'town', that could be anywhere.

Livvie · 26-03-2008 11:11PM

elshambo wrote: »

I may have to take that back about the lilt, spent last week in london, women/girls on tube/ in pubs/resturants/ pretty much everywhere telling me they loved my accent, im moving over!

As for the county Dublin stuff, spot on, spent 4-5 years in Dublin, only ever got "culchie" nonsence from people who grew up surrounded by fields and tractors, a mate of mine from actual Dublin used to call them "knacker culchies" culchies who desperatly wanted to be townies, said he always preferred people from small towns as they knew who they were.
"country people calling it the city" better a suburbanite than a country boy? lol

anyhu Livvie
Stay out of london pubs like O'Neills, not Irish, just offensive!
U been to Ireland since you started writing?

Unfortunately, no. I hope to get over this year.

I had a major compliment paid to me by someone who read the novel so far..and she showed her Irish mum who said she would have assumed I was Irish.

I think the help I've had from here has contributed a lot to that.

elshambo · 27-03-2008 04:47AM

Livvie wrote: »

Unfortunately, no. I hope to get over this year.

I had a major compliment paid to me by someone who read the novel so far..and she showed her Irish mum who said she would have assumed I was Irish.

So its full of bad grammer and swearing then?

Livvie · 27-03-2008 08:13AM

Absolutely.

What cliches and stereotypes do you hate

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