Obese people may get paid to lose weight

AngryBadger wrote: »

So you're saying that people who can afford private healthcare should be denied it just because not everyone can afford it? And what standards and equality are being upheld in Ireland right now that we're in such danger of losing? The HSE is a complete shambles, if privatisation would result in a better system then I'm all for it.

No I am saying that if we had a better health system no one should need to go private. The system at the moment is a shambles, however privatisation is not the answer imo its the easy way out. Compared to the Us at least we do still have a system of last resort. I would happily pay more taxes for example if they were invested correctly instead of paying the same or more for private insurance. A healthy population leads to a healthy economy so everyone would benefit.

AngryBadger wrote: »

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. We don't have a better health system, which is why anyone who can afford to usually does go private. I'll support any practical means of improving the existing health system, but I do not support anything which further shifts the responsibility for peoples health away from the people themselves.

Also why si it that you automatically assume that any effort at privatisation would result in a system as bad as Americas is (although to eb honest I'm not that fmailiar with the american system and will have to take your word as to its state). Isn't it at least possible that we could study and learn from the inadequacies in such a system and produce a more effect private system over here while still retaining a public health service?

Hmm.. I have studied social policy for three years thus far, this doesn't make me an expert but when it comes to something as important as health I really cant find much good to say about privatisation of health care. I feel that people should be entitled to health care on the basis of their humanity nd citizenship, not dependant on the money in their pockets. I do not feel that everyone can take responsibility and for society's state of health I feel that this is a duty of the government and something which they alone can do best under the right framework.

The countries which have efficient equal schemes tend to score highest when it comes to health standards and general equality. Ireland is quite unique with its two tiered system of public and private health we seem stuck in the middle. As I said before I would rather if we went more towards the public route. This is after all the choice of most other first world successful countries, eg France Germany, Sweden etc. All these countries have much better health systems. Why cant we emulate them instead of a system that is in many ways inferior to ours? The lesson that we can learn from the USA is that privatisation is a mistake.

There are a few reasons that Ireland is so behind in health care in the first place, mainly poor forward planning. Our economy was crap for so long while other countries had more stable economies and were able to gradually build up their health systems. we on the other hand got rich quick and had to build up a very weak system. However we didn't put in the effort as our economy grew we invested a little more but not as much as we could of .http://www.bdi-initiativ-vitalegesellschaft.de/home_oecd_daten_aus_health_data_03.pdf This means we have failed to catch up and should be theoretically spending more than the other countries.

Ive gone on way too much, hope this makes sense. To sum up a proper health system is not unachievable. Planning and investment is all that is needed.

exercise was the same. i don't wana ****ing work it out. my metabolism was way ****ed up, for a couple of reasons at the time. largely to do with my thyroid, but partially due to some other reasons which i am not willing to discuss here.

no i did not calculate my intake. i hadn't been seeing a doctor at that particular point. shortly after, he put me on pills which had me yoyoing from one crazy weight to another. what a ****ing fantastic idea for someone he knew already had weight and general esteem issues, and had already told that they were only weeks away from killing myself for related issues.

****ing asswank.

AngryBadger wrote: »

I agree with your summary of the reasons we have such a poor health system. The countries you cite as having excellent health systems tax their citizens through the nose. It's not simply down to better planning, and development, it's mainly down to the fact that they citizens pay more tax.


If you asked me should Irish citizens pay more taxes I'd say no, for the simple reason that we've being doing extremely well economcially for the past decade or so, and yet all of our major infrastructural servicees and institutions are a joke shop. As you pointed out we got rich quick with EU money, and we did very little of real productivity with the gains years later.

Now, the real question is, will irish people wind up paying more taxes, ineveitably the answer is yes, aprtly because we're in an economic downturn, and aprtly because the onyl way to fix the problems within the system (due to years of poor planning and the general incompetence of our government) what we're going to need more than anything else is more money. And that money will be coming from our pockets..

Yep that's right I didn't really want to bring up the T word.:D Personally I have no problem at all paying higher tax if it raises my quality of life. Here's a good example off the top of my head. Irish parents on average pay 20% of their wages on childcare. Id rather that went to tax as it would enable more women to join the workforce and hopefully boost the economy. I have to agree though higher taxes are risky for the economy, but in my opinion worth it in the long run.

AngryBadger wrote: »

I'm a big fan of privatisation, and not just of the health system. The government has demonstrated time and again that they are in no way capable of running efficient and effective public services, resulting in huge bills for the taxpayer to keep kloated under-performing civil services in operation. The only viable solution in my eyes is to privatise these operations. Or at least make them semi-private.

We can't plan to eliminate the inefficiencies that make our health system so bad if we insist on continuing to prop up the current system..

For public services such as health and education I would lean more towards public every time mostly out of concerns for equality.
Yes our government are idiots and believe me I haven't much faith in them accomplishing what I am proposing. However I believe they will feck up privatisation even worse in the long run. Imo the whole system needs to be changed.

It depresses me that there is so little public resolve for change. Our government does not fear its public, and its concerns mean little to it.

AngryBadger wrote: »

That statement is the sole reason I would push so hard for privatisation. There will be no change until people are willing to get up in arms and vote the current government out of office. But that's not happening. People are quite happy to moan and gripe about all the problems in irish society but very few people are willing to do anything about these problems.

Some of the solutions absolutely require government action. But many of them just require people to accept their own responsibility, (part of which is to vote with their spines not their bladders), which very few people are willing to do. In that environment I don't believe in equality for all, I believe if people want a better system then they should be willing, and able to pay for it, essentially they should put up or shut up.

True, the government should be providing far better for tax-paying citizens than it is, but failing that, and if the reason a bad government keeps getting back into power is because people lack the resolve to push for change, then why shouldn't I have access to private health care if I desire it and am willing to pay for it?

You make some good points but your opinion goes against everything I believe in. You talk like you assume that everyone has equal power in this society and that any inequality is ultimately their fault and avoidable. This is untrue most inequalities are unavoidable and enshrined in culture and structures one person is not powerful enough to change them. I feel that the primary role of the government must always be to protect the weak and to promote equality.

rubadub wrote: »

You can work it out here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50956807&postcount=4

you didnt mention if exercise changed. Lets say it was the same. And say you did put on 8 stone of fat (some is probably water/fluids).

8 stone of fat would take approx 392,000kcal to put on, based on 1lb of fat being lost or gained by 3,500kcal.

Over 90 days that is 4,355kcal excess calories per day. Now if everything was the same, that would mean a drastic change in your metabolism, a usual basal 2000 is now in effect becoming 6000+kcal. What was the conditon you had? And did you actually calculate your calorie intake? Did your doctor not inform you that your metabolism would change and that you should adjust your calorie intake accordingly?

I used to eat a chinese on the way home from the pub once or twice a week. If I went back and started again I would expect to put on 3 stone over a year, all else being the exact same.

Wow. Your pro-cannabis arguements are retarded, but you are really taking the biscuit here.

I went through about 2-3000 calories a day when I started my meds. I cycled 10-15 miles a day and still put on weight. Your numbers don't work. What happened me. I'm freaking out. The numbers are wrong. How is that possible? I can't believe the numbers lied. and so forth.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Fair enough, I respect that we obviously disagree on some points.


So when I look at anyone in a bad situation, where everyone else chooses to see a victim, I usually see people who never took responsibility for themselves, and so wound up in bad circumstances which could have easily been avoided.

Cool
I'm going to have to try sway you on one thing though because it is really bugging me, then I'm going to bed:). The majority of inequalities are just not that simple and very hard to avoid. Here's an example, I could give you hundreds.

1. When you see a scanger with no qualifications, drawing the dole etc of course you are tempted to assume that this is their own fault, they are a lazy assed waster etc. However from day one this person is most likely to have had less opportunities than the average middle class Joe Bloggs. Studies have shown that working class children find the structure and cultures of the classroom unfamiliar and difficult to interpret. Even their language structure has been proven to be different and to place them at a disadvantage in the middle class classroom culture. Teachers have been shown to expect less of working class kids and in turn these kids try less.

Added to this maybe his parents could not offer the same supports other parents could, they may be uneducated themselves, may be ignorant of the benefits of education, may not have been able to afford playschool and extra learning materials. His house might of been crap and crowded with nowhere quiet to do homework, his peers uninterested in education, I could go on and on.

Basically the guy was screwed from the start through no fault of his own. These inequalities only get worse as he gets older and a vicious cycle is created. By the time he was old enough to take responsibility his position in society had been fixed along with his attitudes and self expectations.

Terry wrote: »

Did anyone ever think that maybe they will give the money to these people after they lose the weight, or did you all just want to make lame fat jokes, which were not remotely funny?


The medication I'm on causes weight gain.
I gained a stone and a half in the first month of taking it. I was cycling 10 to 15 miles a day at the time, but still gained that weight.
There are plenty of others in the same boat. Of course all the ignorami out there will just label anyone overweight as lazy, without even knowing the cause. And good for you. You should all do it. I once led a shallow life and taking the piss out of others was a great way to make me feel good about myself. I encourage all of you shallow pricks to do the same. It really beats getting over your own insecurities and makes you look cool in front of your friends.

I also suggest ranting about smokers, scumbags, travellers, single mothers, people who drink but don't smoke weed, People who never went to college and earn more than you via the training they got from FAS, the government (even though you didn't vote in the last election because you are too cool for school) and skinny people (because you wish you were skinny, but just can't lose that extra stone and are taking your bitterness out on obese people via the internet).

For the record, I'm obese. I don't want, nor would I accept any money for losing weight. I'd just like to see healthy food that is as cheap as processed crap (which I do not eat).
Oh yeah, I'm also obese because I don't exercise. I know obese people who do exercise and eat properly, but can't get down to their desired weight for a variety of reasons.

The voice of reason. QFT

AngryBadger wrote: »

..but with obesity the fact remains that if you are obese your health suffers.

There's no disputing that fact. Obesity results in constant addition strain on your bodies organ systems. Pressure on blood vessels leads to blood pressure problems, and can get so bad as to lead to problems with suffusion of tissue. In my view, (and I'll grant you this is just from my perspective) a person who is obese is knowingly contributing to the deterioration of their own health.

Obesity is associated with increased risk of health complications like those mentioned, but it is not 100% predictive. Not even close. It is very possible to be normotensive, normoglycemic, and normolipidemic with no evidence of heart disease and still be obese. There is categorical proof of this. Just FYI

For those using the 'energy in, energy out' equation: you are focusing too much on the controllable 'energy in' component and ignoring the significantly less controllable 'energy out' part.

And listen to me - I've got a normal BMI!!