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Obese people may get paid to lose weight

2

Comments

  • #32
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Tzetze wrote: »
    So, it's fine for those who profit from the deterioration of public health to continue to do so?

    They don't produce something with the express purpose of damaging peoples health. They produce something wich is in demand and in many cases the products in question are accompanied with warnings regarding the effect on your health. Cigarette packs have health warnings in big black letters ona white background. There's any amount of information in the public domain about the effects of irresponsible eating habits, (both in terms of diet quality AND quantity), and on the effects of cigarettes and indeed many other substances, so in my view how informed you are is entirely up to yourself. And if with all that information available to you the decision taken is to continue an activity that is damaging to your health then that's the bed you've made and you may lie in it.

    Also, by your argument should the companies producing alcoholic drinks pay for treatment of the various liver conditions consumption of said products is linked to?


  • #33
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭Naos


    Not to mention the various car companies who should be responsible for reckless driving and thus pay out to any member of the public who is affected in a negative way by a car.

    Fat people should not get paid to lose weight. They should be charged for putting on the weight.

    Also, narrower doors in courts and mary harney looking for a wage increase: Cracking jokes :D


  • #34
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,635 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    I don't think it's very fair that government funds be used to bail people out of a completely avoidable health situation like this.

    Fairness shouldn't be here nor there. If it works out cheaper for the country to pay them some small amount now than pay for the hospitals ten years down the line they should totally do it.

    Similar to how the Government should subsidise nicotine patches/Allan Carr's book.


  • #35
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    nesf wrote: »
    Fairness shouldn't be here nor there. If it works out cheaper for the country to pay them some small amount now than pay for the hospitals ten years down the line they should totally do it.

    Similar to how the Government should subsidise nicotine patches/Allan Carr's book.

    Would it not be equally fair to simply withold treatment from people who refuse to meet certain health criteria? This is already done in instances such as organ transplant.


  • #36
    cornbb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    If I pay massive amounts of tax and deal with stigma for smoking, I think those who eat their way into hospital should pay their way there too.


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  • #37
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    It's a bad idea. They'll simply take the money and not run.


  • #38
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,030 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Dragan wrote: »
    Sorry , nobody hits 350 lbs becasue of a thyroid problem or water rentention.

    It's because they eat too much.

    Simple maths

    Energy in vs energy out. You eat too much you gain weight.


    I would prefer a taxation system for healthcare based on weight relative to height. For example, a obese person would pay a far greater sum then me to fund the HSE every year in taxs. And for the people who say "what about smokers?" They pay an amazing amount of tax's as it is.


  • #39
    Gillo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Gillo


    Dragan wrote: »
    Sorry , nobody hits 350 lbs becasue of a thyroid problem or water rentention.

    Yes, but those water pies just taste so good:p

    A fraction of the money could easily be directed towards health awareness campaigns.


  • #40
    Pepe LeFrits
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Getting paid to eat? Niiiiiiiiiiice!


  • #41
    Steyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Morlar wrote: »
    Instead of paying them to lose weight why not charge them per pound for being overweight.

    How much per pound??:) They should be forced to exercise. Christ its only a matter of time before we get "fat" coffins like they have in the US, and fatties being Forklifted out of their house through the broken down side wall...


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  • #42
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,187 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    UK is going to shlt, maybe they could use their big brother network of cameras to watch peoples diets.
    That said, the idea of charging obese people is retarded.
    With the social stigma attached to obesity anyone who still eats themselves down a path to an early death does have a medical issue, often a mental health one, something that should be dealt with.
    Would you all be out in force pointing fingers at all the sports related injuries that use up taxpayers money? Afterall, they did choose to play.

    Maybe a totally private healthcare system would suit you all better?

    Perhaps we could have the Gardai enforce a fitness hour :rolleyes:


  • #43
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,635 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    Would it not be equally fair to simply withold treatment from people who refuse to meet certain health criteria? This is already done in instances such as organ transplant.

    You run into problems with the hippies and their "healthcare for all" propaganda then.


  • #44
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Overheal wrote: »
    What happened to survival of the fittest? Why give failed specimens of humanity the opportunity to pass on their flaws?

    Might sound vindictive and taboo but honestly thats the truth: why keep someone born with heart problems alive? What will they contribute to the gene pool?
    Yeah!!!
    Let's allow people with Lou Gehrig's disease to die too. They're never going to contribute anything to society.
    Maximilian wrote: »
    Like they won't spend that money on Big-Macs and Special K...

    No, wait, I don't think I meant to say the second one.
    I eat both as part of a balanced diet.

    Slow coach wrote: »
    It's a bad idea. They'll simply take the money and not run.

    Out of all the 'oh, they're gonna buy junk food' type posts, this was the only funny one.

    Did anyone ever think that maybe they will give the money to these people after they lose the weight, or did you all just want to make lame fat jokes, which were not remotely funny?


    The medication I'm on causes weight gain.
    I gained a stone and a half in the first month of taking it. I was cycling 10 to 15 miles a day at the time, but still gained that weight.
    There are plenty of others in the same boat. Of course all the ignorami out there will just label anyone overweight as lazy, without even knowing the cause. And good for you. You should all do it. I once led a shallow life and taking the piss out of others was a great way to make me feel good about myself. I encourage all of you shallow pricks to do the same. It really beats getting over your own insecurities and makes you look cool in front of your friends.

    I also suggest ranting about smokers, scumbags, travellers, single mothers, people who drink but don't smoke weed, People who never went to college and earn more than you via the training they got from FAS, the government (even though you didn't vote in the last election because you are too cool for school) and skinny people (because you wish you were skinny, but just can't lose that extra stone and are taking your bitterness out on obese people via the internet).

    For the record, I'm obese. I don't want, nor would I accept any money for losing weight. I'd just like to see healthy food that is as cheap as processed crap (which I do not eat).
    Oh yeah, I'm also obese because I don't exercise. I know obese people who do exercise and eat properly, but can't get down to their desired weight for a variety of reasons.


  • #45
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    I must have missed the bit about being paid to lose weight on that link :confused:

    All I saw was this
    Ministers said measures could potentially include offering obese people vouchers for gyms as an incentive to exercise.
    Which is going to come from taxpayers money I suppose. I have said before that there shoud be government run gyms all over the place, if they really are any halfway serious about tackling obesity. And at least teach actual physical education is school, not "PE" which translates as runnning around a field for 40mins, I bet some kids dont even know what it is meant to stand for.

    There are several playgrounds around my area full of expensive equpiment, good to see kids being active, now could they not put a single simple chinning bar in a public area? dip bars? running track?
    Mr Johnson said: "The core of the problem is simple - we eat too much and we do too little exercise. The solution is more complex.
    It is simple thermodynamics. If these mythological super efficient humans with ultra slow metabolisms really existed then not all would be fat, some would be able to eat an apple a day and go on a treadmill hooked up to a generator and output power to rival moneypoint. Scientists would be looking for the gene, imagine a farmer that could make massive cows on a normal cows intake.

    Massive variations in metabolism do not really exist. I think there was a thread that did mention one medical condition that lead to overeating. But it was not defying thermodynamics like some people like to think they can do, they were still overeating.

    As you get older your metabolism slows down, you need less energy to survive. People value this in cars, but think it terrible if their own body becomes more efficient. You have to change accordingly. If you put on fat it is since you ingested more calories than you need, simple as that. If you are on medication and find you are putting on fat, then adjust your fuel intake accordingly, it is easy enough to calculate.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50956807&postcount=4

    Say you have drive 50miles a week to work and usually put in 2 gallons of petrol a week. Now say you go to the garage and the mechanic says "your tyres are not pumped up fully, that makes the car less efficient". Now you pump them up. The mechanic has increased your efficiency. Now if you put in 2 gallons everyweek your tank will eventually start to overflow.

    If your metabolism is slowed, be it by getting older, decreased muscle mass, decreased weight, medication, less activity etc,- then if you continue to put as much fuel in your system then your gut will overflow your pants in the exact same way. Eating less is the simple answer, you might not like it, and I am not saying it is easy but it is the simple truth.

    I know obese people who do exercise and eat properly, but can't get down to their desired weight for a variety of reasons.
    Could you define "eat properly"? especially regarding portion/calorie amounts taken in and calorie expenditure?

    There was a documentary on a while ago with a doctor talking of a morbidly obese patient who could not figure out he was fat as he ate "healthy food", his favourite was oranges, 35-40 a day....


  • #46
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    kowloon wrote: »
    Maybe a totally private healthcare system would suit you all better?

    Actually I'd be all for that. Then everyone is responsible for their own healthcare, and private healthcare can only be an improvement on the current health system in Ireland.

    Re: Sports injuries:

    If you play sports you will probably get injured at some stage, but this is not a guarantee, and the morbidity of the injury and level of medical treatment required doesn't comapre with what you're talking about to treat someone with life-threatening weight levels. Plus someone playing sport isn't partaking with the cure knowledge that they're going to wind up injured and in need of significant medical care, whereas someone who's piling on the pounds and making no effort to lose them is a dead cert for a colourful diversity of conditions.

    My point is that if someone is obese then their health problems are generally a result of them being unwilling to take responsibility for their own diet and exercise regime. Whereas if someone injures themselves playing a sport it's comparable to someone injuring themselves while walking to work, it's not the result of them capulating on their responsibility to their own health.

    Also, I realise there are situations where people can't avoid weight gain, people convalescing is a common example, women who've jsut given brith, and people on certain medications. But these are by far and away the exceptions, in the majority of cases it's donw to a lack of personal discipline. End of story.


  • #47
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Terry wrote: »
    I also suggest ranting about smokers, scumbags, travellers, single mothers, people who drink but don't smoke weed, People who never went to college and earn more than you via the training they got from FAS, the government (even though you didn't vote in the last election because you are too cool for school) and skinny people (because you wish you were skinny, but just can't lose that extra stone and are taking your bitterness out on obese people via the internet).

    I'm not really seeing the relevance of this?

    My point is that I consider it ridiculous that there should be a government funded incentive for obese people to lose weight because I think it's just another example of people famring out their responsibility for themselves to the government.

    I'm not endorsing the notion that people with various conditions, acquired or congenital should have treatment withheld, but I definitely believe that in a situation of limited resources, (and we're always in a situation of limited resources), whatever is available should be distributed according to those with the greatest need and the highest likelihood of a positive response to treatment. As I said before this is already practiced in numerous medical situations such as organ transplant, and certain classes of surgery.

    But you feel free to make spurious emotional arguments that don't reflect the facts or what I'm saying. It adds to the debate :D


  • #48
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    But you feel free to make spurious emotional arguments that don't reflect the facts or what I'm saying. It adds to the debate :D
    Thanks. Drunken rants are great.


  • #49
    Sugar Drunk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Sugar Drunk


    This has got to be a joke? It reminds me of the time when extra vision cleared all charges for people who owed them money. So they rewarded the people who couldnt be arsed paying their fees and what did the rest of us who always paid our acciounts get - nothing!! This is what hapopens when you let a fat mess like nmary harney act out the role of health minister.

    Why should obese people get paid money???? Its those of use who look after our bodies and who are less likely to encur medical bills that should get tax breaks. Tax the obese people - less money means they can buy less food. the tax can be used to pay for their heart disease treatment, their gastric band fitting and their saggy skin removal afterwards.

    I dont buy the excuses that these people come out with - anyone who gets to the stage of being morbidly obese brought it on themselves it doesnt just magically happen. I can never ever understand how peiople can allow them selves to get to that stage - there has got to be a point when these people just stop givign a damn about themslves. As for the medication/not being well excuse I have severe back problems but I excercise as much as I can and watch my diet so that I don't become overweight its not that hard. Its time for people and magazines to stop using the word 'curvy' to describe people who are overweight - a size 20 is not curvy its overweight and it needs to vbe stressed that thi sis not heaklthy before we have more and more obesity problems

    Its just starting to really p*ss me off that in this society we just keep throwing money and incentives at the people that do not do the right thing - this idea for one and the idea of giving money to badly behaved teenagers, houses to pregnant teenagers and benefits left right and centre. Its the people who look after their health, dont become obese or pregnant at 12 or a heroin addict end up paying for all of this out of our hard earned cash!!

    Are we going to end up like the UK? Saw an article in a UK magazine - a woman who was obese demanded a free gastric band to lose weight. She got it free and lost the weight and was then moaning about havign to wait for a free operation to remove the excess saggy fat. FFS it was her own fault she got to that size in the first place and she was moaning that the NHS were not sorting her our free of charge fast enough!


  • #50
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Overheal wrote: »
    What happened to survival of the fittest? Why give failed specimens of humanity the opportunity to pass on their flaws?

    Might sound vindictive and taboo but honestly thats the truth: why keep someone born with heart problems alive? What will they contribute to the gene pool?

    Twat


  • #51
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    I am so very confused by this thread?

    Did anyone here actually read the article?


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  • #52
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    I am so very confused by this thread?

    Did anyone here actually read the article?

    Well thats just crazy talk stranger. From what I saw this proposal was one teeny tiny part of the report that outlined various ways to tackle the problem - the media being the whores they are took it out of context and suddenly it was the only part of the report that got any attention. I havent read it and dont intend to but wouldnt be surprised if it (financial incentivising the obese to lose weight) was a heavily qualified footnote level type entry in it.


  • #53
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    I am so very confused by this thread?

    Did anyone here actually read the article?

    Same here, as I already said, all I saw mentioned was vouchers.

    Wonder if I could get money to cut down on my drinking.


    Terry wrote: »
    I know obese people who do exercise and eat properly, but can't get down to their desired weight for a variety of reasons.
    I still would like to hear what "eat properly" means.


  • #54
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Vouchers for gym use. Joining a gym could easily cost upwards of €500 in a year. So in my view getting free access counts as being paid.

    Either way it's remuneration.


  • #55
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    gillo wrote: »
    Definetly sholdn't be paid to lose weight; I watch what I eat, don't smoke, drink in moderation and work out 5 days a week, surely I should be paid / rewarded for not being a burden on the health service.
    No because overall you probably spend less money (tax!) on driving to and from the shop to buy a pack of cigarettes, bottle of wine and 16 value burgers. So the government doesn't love you as much as the obese spenders.


  • #56
    EL_Loco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭EL_Loco


    why pay people to lose weight? because type 2 diabetes is costing the UK government millions. type 2 is usually brought on by being overweight (there are exceptions)

    people seem angry that the thought of that, but financially it makes sense. spend it on prevention rather than treatment (which will last for the rest of the person's life)

    Governments spend money on people who don't (or can't) find employment, pay for hospitals and doctors for people who drink and drive and crash, for example. There must be millions of examples where on the face of things the person doesn't "deserve" the help they're getting but they still get it.


  • #57
    Susannahmia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Susannahmia


    Overheal wrote: »
    What happened to survival of the fittest? Why give failed specimens of humanity the opportunity to pass on their flaws?

    Might sound vindictive and taboo but honestly thats the truth: why keep someone born with heart problems alive? What will they contribute to the gene pool?


    Thats what Hitler said and look how that turned out. I hope that if you ever find out there is something wrong with you you will do your duty and dispose of yourself and your useless genes. God forbid you ever have a down syndrome or disabled child, would you leave it to die?


  • #58
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    EL_Loco wrote: »
    why pay people to lose weight? because type 2 diabetes is costing the UK government millions. type 2 is usually brought on by being overweight (there are exceptions)...people seem angry that the thought of that, but financially it makes sense. spend it on prevention rather than treatment (which will last for the rest of the person's life)...Governments spend money on people who don't (or can't) find employment, pay for hospitals and doctors for people who drink and drive and crash, for example. There must be millions of examples where on the face of things the person doesn't "deserve" the help they're getting but they still get it.

    I'm not arguing with the fiscal motivation, or even the logistics. I believe it's the responsibility of the government to provide a comprehensive health systme that everyone has access to.

    However I also feel people have a huge personal, (and by extension civic) responsibility to take care of their own health and that of their dependants. A lot of people, (in a lot of ways), don't discharge these responsibilites, which in my view is a disgrace. Part of the reason for this (I think) is that it's easier and easier for people to pass on their responsibilities these days and say "Oh it's the governments/schools/hospitals fault", when in the bulk of cases the problems in question are 100 % the result of the individuals poor attitude to their own responsibilities.

    I'm highlighting this latest instance because I feel that this kind of appaorach is feeding into the bad attitudes I've described above.


  • #59
    KrazeeEyezKilla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭KrazeeEyezKilla


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    Actually I'd be all for that. Then everyone is responsible for their own healthcare, and private healthcare can only be an improvement on the current health system in Ireland.

    So if a poor person gets cancer and can't pay for treatment they should just be left to die.


  • #60
    Susannahmia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Susannahmia


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    Actually I'd be all for that. Then everyone is responsible for their own healthcare, and private healthcare can only be an improvement on the current health system in Ireland.

    Oh God no no no! That is my worst nightmare for Irish society, Look at the inequalities in the USA for gods sake we are not much better but do you really want it to be like that here. Everything privatised and profit motivated with no government upholding standards and equality? Look at the systems in countries like Sweden they are exemplary and accessible for all whatever walk of life. The statement which turned me against Mary Harney forever was when she claimed that policies should be more like those in Boston rather than Berlin. The idea scares the s~~t out of me.


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  • #61
    Crumble Froo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,196 ✭✭✭Crumble Froo


    second last post there, terry, i agree very much on.

    and just, in general, without getting too in depth on this topic, i feel i have to say that many of you who dismiss various health problems with 'oh, you can't gain that much just becuase of x disease'... try live a month in someone else's shoes, i didnt believe it before, either, but that was beofre it happened to me,a nd ****, did that weight gain **** me up .


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