Why I am sticking with Win XP

BostonB · 01-01-2008 02:41AM

AndrewMc wrote: »

I find the reverse, to be honest

I also think too many people compare pre-installed Windows to hand-installed Linux — not an entirely fair comparison.

True. Most people in a thread like this are not coming from a clean sheet of experience when comparing Windows and a Linux install, or as you say comparing two pre installed systems. If a complete new user compared a oem install of Linux and Windows I wonder which they'd prefer. Probably a Mac.

nesf · 01-01-2008 03:06AM

BostonB wrote: »

If a complete new user compared a oem install of Linux and Windows I wonder which they'd prefer.

Windows is much more straightforward to install for a new person. The disks in the boxes of the stuff they just plugged in will almost definitely have the right drivers on them, which helps a lot for a complete new person.

BostonB · 01-01-2008 03:10AM

I kinda meant pre-installed with everything working. I wasn't clear sorry.

Lots of people who are downgrading to XP from Vista on Dell machines are finding it takes a bit of effort to get all the correct XP drivers from Dell. (myself included) As they only supplied the Vista drivers. On the newer machines a lot of the drivers for lan, wifi, sound are not on a (non dell XP disk).

nesf · 01-01-2008 03:12AM

BostonB wrote: »

I kinda meant pre-installed with everything working. I wasn't clear sorry.

Ah, I thought you meant two people installing on self builds.

*blames the alcohol*

Edit:

BostonB wrote: »

Lots of people who are downgrading to XP from Vista on Dell machines are finding it takes a bit of effort to get all the correct XP drivers from Dell. (myself included) As they only supplied the Vista drivers.

Yeah, I prefer to build PCs tbh. Though there's solid arguments for picking up a new cheap Dell every year.

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 05:01AM

BostonB wrote: »

From experience its often possible to get things working that aren't officially supported through hacks and kludges. Though standing around like monkeys isn't required. Does it help?

Just trying to keep up. Hard when you're decrepit, stupid, lazy and illiterate.

Of course it's often possible to get things working that aren't officially supported, I would of thought that's how the drivers for numerous bits of hardware including network cards that have been built by a ton of develeoper's got there in the first place, but some like the OpenBSD guys strive to hurt companies who don't proviide doc's on the hardware so people won't buy them until they do so average joe doesn't have to hack the gibson and write a new driver or some bo llox to get his hardware working (this gets back to not having gobsheen admin who can read HCL's in order to buy the correct hardware in the first place)

But again you're talking nonsense that has nothing to do with the OP you have tried to claim too much effort so leave it be and now it's worth so much effort to hack a driver or some such to get it working so the OP should now have learned to code to rewrite wine to get his box running as he liked it can i lawl? pls?

being decrepit, stupid and lazy is a problem if you need help boards has Personal Issues so can you use that for those issue's and try and stay with the technical stuff here?

if you require any reading material on how to be a decent sys admin, or how to buy new hardware in your environment without causing a user to write a driver to use it I'm sure someone can point you to it or lend you it, there's a book club afaik

conor2007 · 01-01-2008 05:10AM

installing any linux distro is easy

getting simple things like mp3's to work is dificult

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 05:22AM

conor2007 wrote: »

installing any linux distro is easy

getting simple things like mp3's to work is dificult

this is true.

apt-get install xmms can be heart breaking i don't know how people do it

or what about make install xmms this is another tricky hurdle beware!

pkg_add -r xmms another moutain this a steep climb only for pro's

BostonB · 01-01-2008 06:06AM

ntlbell wrote: »

Of course it's often possible to get things working that aren't officially supported, I would of thought that's how the drivers for numerous bits of hardware including network cards that have been built by a ton of develeoper's got there in the first place, but some like the OpenBSD guys strive to hurt companies who don't proviide doc's on the hardware so people won't buy them until they do so average joe doesn't have to hack the gibson and write a new driver or some bo llox to get his hardware working (this gets back to not having gobsheen admin who can read HCL's in order to buy the correct hardware in the first place)

But again you're talking nonsense that has nothing to do with the OP you have tried to claim too much effort so leave it be and now it's worth so much effort to hack a driver or some such to get it working so the OP should now have learned to code to rewrite wine to get his box running as he liked it can i lawl? pls?

being decrepit, stupid and lazy is a problem if you need help boards has Personal Issues so can you use that for those issue's and try and stay with the technical stuff here?

if you require any reading material on how to be a decent sys admin, or how to buy new hardware in your environment without causing a user to write a driver to use it I'm sure someone can point you to it or lend you it, there's a book club afaik

I remember one distro where the laptops new onboard chipset wasn't supported officially after some trial and error I found a driver from an older chipset that worked enough to be usable. Same thing with a sound card. Not on the HCL and didn't need to write a new driver. Same thing often works on Windows. The OP and others have been talking more than just Wine. You've managed to get sexism, ageism, book clubs, Personal Issues and monkeys into it.

conor2007 · 01-01-2008 07:42AM

mmm

pointless commands , honestly who wants to enter them in to do simple tasks

rmacm · 01-01-2008 01:05PM

conor2007 wrote: »

mmm

pointless commands , honestly who wants to enter them in to do simple tasks

If the commands were pointless as you say they would achieve no results. If you don't want to use the command line try Synaptic on Ubuntu for a gui package management application in Ubuntu.

ethernet · 01-01-2008 01:44PM

nesf wrote: »

Windows is much more straightforward to install for a new person. The disks in the boxes of the stuff they just plugged in will almost definitely have the right drivers on them, which helps a lot for a complete new person.

I would actually commend Linux in this regard seeing as so many drivers are in the kernel for drive controllers and the like. There's nothing worse than having to load drivers manually during a Windows install. But I see your point, particularly from the viewpoint of the casual/'normal' user.

connor2007 wrote:

installing any linux distro is easy

getting simple things like mp3's to work is dificult

Your persistent Linux bashing across multiple foums is having a profound effect on me :rolleyes:

I have to dispute this. It's an absolute doddle in Ubuntu and Fedora 8 and no need to enter commands into a terminal to do so -- you try and play an mp3 file in these distros and they offer to download the appropriate codec. If you want a distro with all the proprietary codecs from Windows land then you'd be better off trying another distro, one that requires you to hand over your shiny pennies to get your hands on it, like Xandros.

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 02:00PM

BostonB wrote: »

I remember one distro where the laptops new onboard chipset wasn't supported officially after some trial and error I found a driver from an older chipset that worked enough to be usable. Same thing with a sound card. Not on the HCL and didn't need to write a new driver. Same thing often works on Windows. The OP and others have been talking more than just Wine. You've managed to get sexism, ageism, book clubs, Personal Issues and monkeys into it.

do you have a point of your own or are you still proving mine?
If you take time and effort things work.
have a read back through the thread....that's the whole point and if the OP had of put some effort in he would of also got his application to work or found an alternative way to get to his goal.

ding....dong...

You can't have a windows/linux discussion without monkey's :rolleyes:

conor2007 · 01-01-2008 08:36PM

im not linux bashing

i still have it installed - its just so damn dificult to do simple tasks

BostonB · 01-01-2008 09:11PM

ntlbell wrote: »

do you have a point of your own or are you still proving mine?...

You wish. Mine is thinking outside of the box is often more productive than your dogma.

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 09:30PM

BostonB wrote: »

You wish. Mine is thinking outside of the box is often more productive than your dogma.

I'm surprised you ever get to have a look outside the box glued to monkey coding ASP/.NET all day.

But it explains your confusion in the thread.

My point: user should of put a bit of effort it to try and get his bit of software to run instead of bashing linux

Your point: you can if you look find a way to get software/hardware working.

Ok.

KAGY · 01-01-2008 09:33PM

BostonB wrote: »

Sometimes things simply don't work. Or are broken, or finding the solution will just take too much time than the result warrants.

Too true, esp if you are starting from base zero like the OP, some of us have other things in our lives besides the computer, I'm lucky if a get a few hours a week; my daughter is pulling at my arm as i type!

Like the OP I just wanted to dive right in (and who reads the manual before you start playing with your new toy)

I've been dual booting WinXP and Ubuntu since 6.10 and I still haven't got everything working to the stage where I can wipe the NT disk. (PowerCinema TV Card and IPAQ PDA, and I've have invested many hours googling and following walk throughs, installing different s/w etc, trying again after new releases....) and before anyone jumps in saying I should have checked compatibility lists first sometimes you are stuck with what you've got. I bought my rig before I was thinking of jumping over so compatibility wasn't an issue and the funds aren't available for new compatible cards

And regarding not changing and sticking with XP & why "lazy" people aren't welcome into the community all I can say is, the more users, the more likely manufacturers will start getting their act together and writing native drivers.
If it wasn't for the push for things to be easier for lazier people you'd still be on the command line (exclusively) with ACSII art for porn.

So welcome to the community pawwedrig, even if it's not from a very active participant. I'm glad to see that you have got some help from this thread, sometimes you do need help with the very basic concepts.

If this thread was renamed, why I'm sticking with Dual booting XP:

I like the values behind the OS community
Some of the open source s/w is better than windows apps
some of the closed source s/w is more polished than Linux apps
i've 15 years experience with windows and M/S, during which time the methods and shortcuts have been deeeeply ingrained
It's time I went legal
H/W compatibilty as mentioned above
but mostly time I don't have

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 09:47PM

KAGY wrote: »

Too true, esp if you are starting from base zero like the OP, some of us have other things in our lives besides the computer, I'm lucky if a get a few hours a week; my daughter is pulling at my arm as i type!

That's not a problem, and if as has been stated numerous times now, if the OP worked out it was going to to take more time than it's worth and went back to XP or dual booted or whatever while he continued to research the issue ***THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM**

KAGY wrote: »

Like the OP I just wanted to dive right in (and who reads the manual before you start playing with your new toy)

this is also not a problem as long as you don't go blaming any problems on the OS and ignoring the fact is down to you not reading the manual

KAGY wrote: »

and before anyone jumps in saying I should have checked compatibility lists first sometimes you are stuck with what you've got. I bought my rig before I was thinking of jumping over so compatibility wasn't an issue and the funds aren't available for new compatible cards

Again this is fine, you've made attempts to get things working, you realise the reasons why, and you tried yourself to get things working

THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M STATING THE OP SHOULD OF DONE.

KAGY wrote: »

And regarding not changing and sticking with XP & why "lazy" people aren't welcome into the community all I can say is, the more users, the more likely manufacturers will start getting their act together and writing native drivers.

Getting more users is fine, getting people who just whine about doing something as simple as installing xmms to play mp3's as an earlier poster moaned about is not getting us anywhere.

BostonB · 01-01-2008 09:49PM

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm surprised you ever get to have a look outside the box glued to monkey coding ASP/.NET all day.

But it explains your confusion in the thread.

My point: user should of put a bit of effort it to try and get his bit of software to run instead of bashing linux

Your point: you can if you look find a way to get software/hardware working.

Ok.

Except I'm not a code monkey. So much for blindly reading. :rolleyes:

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 09:54PM

BostonB wrote: »

You're correct I'm talking through my jaxy and I realise now we're discussing the exact same point but also the part you're wrong on is I'm not a code monkey. So much for blindly reading. :rolleyes:

FYP

nesf · 01-01-2008 10:34PM

ntlbell wrote: »

Getting more users is fine, getting people who just whine about doing something as simple as installing xmms to play mp3's as an earlier poster moaned about is not getting us anywhere.

I'd disagree, the mainstream is where installing xmms is a big deal and your average person isn't inclined towards learning how to do things from the command prompt etc. Similar to how building your own machine will always remain a niche method of acquiring a new PC. Linux is broad in it's appeal and there's a world of difference between your average Slackware user and your average Ubuntu user but really complaining because some of the less technically inclined are daring to ask questions about how to run things in Linux is simple elitist crap. The days when Linux was exclusively for the geeks and freaks are gone tbh.

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 10:46PM

nesf wrote: »

I'd disagree, the mainstream is where installing xmms is a big deal and your average person isn't inclined towards learning how to do things from the command prompt etc. Similar to how building your own machine will always remain a niche method of acquiring a new PC. Linux is broad in it's appeal and there's a world of difference between your average Slackware user and your average Ubuntu user but really complaining because some of the less technically inclined are daring to ask questions about how to run things in Linux is simple elitist crap. The days when Linux was exclusively for the geeks and freaks are gone tbh.

Installing xmms in ubuntu is as easy if not easier than installing winamp in windows.

I fail to see how installing xmms is any bigger of a deal than than winamp.

I'm surprised at you actually, as I'm clearly not complaining about them asking questions, I'm complaining about them doing no research of their own first and asking specific questions about the problem, I'm complaining about people bashing linux because of their own laziness to do a small bit of reading on their own this is nothing to do with being elitist at all it's expecting a very small amount of work to be done before they ask the question.

The same goes for windows/osx/ learning chinese history the subject matter does not matter.

nesf · 01-01-2008 10:52PM

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm surprised at you actually, as I'm clearly not complaining about them asking questions, I'm complaining about them doing no research of their own first and asking specific questions about the problem, I'm complaining about people bashing linux because of their own laziness to do a small bit of reading on their own this is nothing to do with being elitist at all it's expecting a very small amount of work to be done before they ask the question.

These people bash Windows too. They expect it to be easier and to work "out of the box". The elitist part is that you "expect them to have done some work before bothering asking the question". It's just a longer form of RTFM tbh.

ntlbell · 01-01-2008 11:01PM

nesf wrote: »

These people bash Windows too. They expect it to be easier and to work "out of the box". The elitist part is that you "expect them to have done some work before bothering asking the question". It's just a longer form of RTFM tbh.

RTFM is fine, if they haven't opened the first page.

If they read it and don't understand a certain part of it then I hope they go and ask someone to help them help them understand that part before verbally bashing the product regardless of what it is be it a DVD player a TV or an OS.

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

AndrewMc · 01-01-2008 11:09PM

conor2007 wrote: »

mmm

pointless commands , honestly who wants to enter them in to do simple tasks

I'll usually give the written commands rather than the GUI equivalent as it's much, much quicker and more reliable to say “type this: ...” than “click on x, then y, then find option z and set it w, then find tab q and ....”.

BostonB · 02-01-2008 03:43AM

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm going to keep whining on about rtfm, or the HCL because I've no other point to make.

High brow stuff indeed.

ntlbell wrote: »

RTFM is fine, if they haven't opened the first page.

If they read it and don't understand a certain part of it then I hope they go and ask someone to help them help them understand that part before verbally bashing the product regardless of what it is be it a DVD player a TV or an OS.

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

ntlbell · 02-01-2008 10:48AM

BostonB wrote: »

High brow stuff indeed.

Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

Ok, which gets to my point about choosing the OS that's right for you which was a few pages back and this case it's probably Apple.

So I'll ask again, are you going to keep agreeing with me? or have you a point of your own?

mach1982 · 02-01-2008 11:20AM

BostonB wrote: »

High brow stuff indeed.

Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

You do know that since OSX, it unix under the hood.

nesf · 02-01-2008 02:47PM

ntlbell wrote: »

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

That depends tbh. Holding the opinion that people should educate themselves before taking part in referendums is construed as being elitist in some circles, for instance.

conor2007 · 02-01-2008 06:57PM

maybe be easier to give commands when trobleshooting , i dont know

but for day to day use , easier and i hate permissions

hate them , so annoying and locked feckin folders

AndrewMc · 02-01-2008 10:45PM

conor2007 wrote: »

i hate permissions

hate them , so annoying and locked feckin folders

Do you mean folders are spontaneously becoming read-only? That shouldn't happen. Most read-only files/folders are read-only for a good reason. Any particular examples come to mind?

Why I am sticking with Win XP

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