N17 Galway to Tuam dual carriageway confirmed to be M17

Chris_533976 · 18-12-2007 1:17pm #1

Wont be built for a bit, but its confirmed that this WILL be officially motorway, and a motorway order has been published for it.

The NRA site is out of date -
http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/GalwayCountyCouncil/N17GalwaytoTuam/SchemeName,10900,en.html

Heres the official site -
http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/RoadProjects/m17/index.htm

Galway Co Council are fantastic at giving info about road projects.

There will also be a rest area at the Rathmorrisey interchange.

This poses questions about other schemes too. The N6 (a PPP scheme) will travel through the interchange at the start of this scheme, so at least part of it should be M. But since the N6 is a PPP it will probably be M6 for that part anyway, a la M8 Fermoy bypass. Though this isnt confirmed yet.

That means things for the N18 too. It now should defiantly be M18 for part of it, as it is otherwise inescapable, leading only to the M6 and M17. That means that the N18 Oranmore-Gort scheme should be M18 at least to Kiltiernan, which is 14km down the proposed road. However, if the N6 is built as N and not M, then none of the N18 has to be M. Its all rather confusing.

This will be interesting, at least Galway Co Co are getting their fingers out regarding motorway classification. The motorway order has JUST been published, meaning that this will be new build motorway, whereas all the N6 and 18 schemes are going to construction soon, dont have a motorway order but can be reclassified.

loyatemu · 18-12-2007 2:13pm

I think the important question here is - Will the Sawdoctors be re-recording their song?

skelliser · 18-12-2007 2:19pm

it will be twenty years before any of this will be done by then the sawdoctors will be dead and ronan keating will re-record it.

DaBreno · 18-12-2007 2:32pm

Still no sign of the fabled Claregalway bypass.

Robbo · 18-12-2007 2:50pm

DaBreno wrote: »

Still no sign of the fabled Claregalway bypass.

Noel Grealish will be building that himself.

Chris_533976 · 18-12-2007 3:07pm

This is the N17, so will be the functional Claregalway bypass, even though its substantially far away

JupiterKid · 18-12-2007 6:42pm

If the N17 is going to be replaced with the M17, and the N18 from Limerick will be upgraded to motorway, then where these roads meet the new M6 should be a fully free flowing interchange like a Whirlpool or a Four Level Stack.

But I can't see this happening - it will probably be a nasty three level roundabout.:rolleyes:

fricatus · 18-12-2007 9:33pm

What is it about Galway? Both local authorities there really seem to be good on communication and positive spin, basically "talking things up". Other local authorities, take note!

Compare the M17 site with this:
http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/

Even the NRA's site is not as up to date as it should be, although I've just checked what I was going to complain about and now I see it's up to date!

Chris_533976 · 18-12-2007 9:53pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

If the N17 is going to be replaced with the M17, and the N18 from Limerick will be upgraded to motorway, then where these roads meet the new M6 should be a fully free flowing interchange like a Whirlpool or a Four Level Stack.

But I can't see this happening - it will probably be a nasty three level roundabout.:rolleyes:

Good guess. Its gonna be a three level stack. ie: N6 below, N18 running directly into M17 on the top, and a roundabout on the middle layer with slips for common movements.

I'd say it'll be sufficient though, but I would prefer a freeflow interchange. Trouble is its a bit of a dodgy one tho from the money point of view. Build a massive interchange that doesnt warrent the traffic, or build a three level stack that'll be at capacity.

galwayrush · 18-12-2007 10:32pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

This is the N17, so will be the functional Claregalway bypass, even though its substantially far away

Way too far away to be a practical solution to Claregalway.:mad:I can't understand why it couldn't run between the Tuam and Headford roads, or the Tuam and Monivea roads,It could have had the potential so solve a lot if traffic woes. :mad:

E92 · 18-12-2007 10:51pm

The more Motorways the country has the better. Didn't think they would have this road built as a Motorway though, but good luck to the people of Galway.

This however shows how much our roads are neglected in Cork, only a few miles of mere Dual Carriageway on Cork-Limerick and not all of it is even HQDC(only the bit in Limerick which is a road I could never understand wasn't called a Motorway in the first place, its better than the Fermoy bypass to my mind). The Cork-Limerick road is connecting the second biggest city in the country to the third, it deserves a lot better than this. The only proper road we're going to have any time soon is the one to Dublin, there's no motorway or even Dual Carriageway planned beyond Midelton on Cork-Waterford other than the Waterford city bypass and Limerick is getting a DC all the way to Abbeyfeale now on the road to Tralee while we only got a HQDC for the Ballincollig bypass, again I'll all for them getting proper roads, they are entitled to proper roads just as much as Dublin or anywhere else in the country is, but there is no reason in the world why Cork which has more than double the population of Limerick can't shouldn't have these quality roads either.

The next thing brings me on to my old favourite, what is keeping Dempsy with the brilliant idea to reclassify HQDC's to Motorways? The legislation is there for it to happen, so what are we or more to the point what is he waiting for?

fricatus · 18-12-2007 11:27pm

E92 wrote: »

This however shows how much our roads are neglected in Cork...

You're kidding, right? Drive from Midleton to Ovens any day... you've got a freeway that wouldn't be out of place in LA - it's 5 lanes in either direction at one point for God's sake! You've a free river crossing too (Jack Lynch Tunnel) and the Cork-Dublin road is getting a full upgrade. The roundabouts at Bishopstown and Bandon Road (?) are due to go, just like the Kinsale Road one did.

I know the N20 is bad but do you not think you might be exaggerating just an eency weency bit?

Jeapy · 19-12-2007 1:13am

skelliser wrote: »

it will be twenty years before any of this will be done by then the sawdoctors will be dead and ronan keating will re-record it.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :eek:

D.L.R. · 19-12-2007 1:57am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Galway Co Council are fantastic at giving info about road projects.

Pity about their 'interactive map' though. No sign of Galway or Tuam on the bleedin thing, just tiny villages and no landmarks. Could've zoomed out a bit for better overview. But good to see this project moving along.

Chris_533976 · 19-12-2007 2:42pm

E92 wrote: »

The more Motorways the country has the better. Didn't think they would have this road built as a Motorway though, but good luck to the people of Galway.

This however shows how much our roads are neglected in Cork, only a few miles of mere Dual Carriageway on Cork-Limerick and not all of it is even HQDC(only the bit in Limerick which is a road I could never understand wasn't called a Motorway in the first place, its better than the Fermoy bypass to my mind). The Cork-Limerick road is connecting the second biggest city in the country to the third, it deserves a lot better than this. The only proper road we're going to have any time soon is the one to Dublin, there's no motorway or even Dual Carriageway planned beyond Midelton on Cork-Waterford other than the Waterford city bypass and Limerick is getting a DC all the way to Abbeyfeale now on the road to Tralee while we only got a HQDC for the Ballincollig bypass, again I'll all for them getting proper roads, they are entitled to proper roads just as much as Dublin or anywhere else in the country is, but there is no reason in the world why Cork which has more than double the population of Limerick can't shouldn't have these quality roads either.

The next thing brings me on to my old favourite, what is keeping Dempsy with the brilliant idea to reclassify HQDC's to Motorways? The legislation is there for it to happen, so what are we or more to the point what is he waiting for?

The N20 is my pet hate. The Blarney - Mallow part is fine for now (other projects are more important) but Mallow - Croom needs doing far more than, say the Mitchelstown - Fermoy section of the N8.

And FWIW the Midleton - Youghal scheme will be DC (at least). No start date on that for quite a while tho.

E92 · 19-12-2007 4:21pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The N20 is my pet hate. The Blarney - Mallow part is fine for now (other projects are more important) but Mallow - Croom needs doing far more than, say the Mitchelstown - Fermoy section of the N8.

And FWIW the Midleton - Youghal scheme will be DC (at least). No start date on that for quite a while tho.

That's good. Construction has at last started on the Fermoy-Mitchelstown road(it started a good few weeks ago actually), apparantly it's gonna be done in Spring 2009 which would be fantastic. By the end of 2009 there will be just the crappy road from Cullahill to Port Loaise so even if the roads haven't been changed to Motorway by then it will still be a lot fast to get to Dublin. Come 2010 it will be a straight run all the way up to Newland's Cross, and I believe that will change as well because they are meant to be getting rid of the traffic lights so there will be a proper road from the Dunkettle Interchange all the way up to the Mad sorry Red Cow roundabout, and park the car in the Luas P&R and the journey to Dublin is going to be very fast indeed. Imagine how much better it would be if we had a Motorway all the way instead of half the way and the higher speeds a Motorway allows! You could get up there in just over 2 hours(it nearly take 2 hours to get to thomond park in limerick on a good day so if that ain't progress I don't know what is!)

JupiterKid · 19-12-2007 5:28pm

Claregalway is a really nasty bottleneck. It's clear that some sort of interim relief road is desperately needed to bypass the village, like what was done at Kinnegad and Enfield.

transylman · 19-12-2007 5:48pm

fricatus wrote: »

What is it about Galway? Both local authorities there really seem to be good on communication and positive spin, basically "talking things up". Other local authorities, take note!

Compare the M17 site with this:
http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/

Even the NRA's site is not as up to date as it should be, although I've just checked what I was going to complain about and now I see it's up to date!

Yeah, but they're completely rubbish at getting anything done. This road was supposed to have been built in 2006. They even put off building the Claregalway bypass in 2004 because they thought it wouldnt be necessary with the DC coming so soon. Fair dues to whoever takes care of putting up the information, but Galway co co in general are one of the least competent councils in Ireland.

Chris_533976 · 19-12-2007 7:08pm

E92 wrote: »

Cullahill to Port Loaise

Thats the M7/M8 project, which has actually started I think. Its a tough one to see because its all offline, and away from either the N7 or N8.

Irish and Proud · 19-12-2007 10:04pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

If the N17 is going to be replaced with the M17, and the N18 from Limerick will be upgraded to motorway, then where these roads meet the new M6 should be a fully free flowing interchange like a Whirlpool or a Four Level Stack.

But I can't see this happening - it will probably be a nasty three level roundabout.:rolleyes:

It will be a three level roundabout with the N6 under and the M17/M18 over. However, four freeflow left slips will be provided, so the roundabout will only be dealing with right turning traffic. The M6 is projected to carry about 8000 pcus per day on opening, and I doubt that the M17/M18 will be carrying much more traffic. Unless the town of Athenry is to mushroom into a city, I guess that this interchange will more than suffice.

Regards!

Victor · 19-12-2007 10:04pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Way too far away to be a practical solution to Claregalway.:mad:I can't understand why it couldn't run between the Tuam and Headford roads, or the Tuam and Monivea roads,It could have had the potential so solve a lot if traffic woes. :mad:

Maybe because that would create huge detour for the majority of traffic?

Irish and Proud · 19-12-2007 10:20pm

skelliser wrote: »

it will be twenty years before any of this will be done by then the sawdoctors will be dead and ronan keating will re-record it.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic mate, the M17 will form part of the AWC which is next on the government's hit list after the interurbans. Although the interurbans are late, all remaining sections of the M7 and M9 motorways will be under construction by next year (all sections of the M6 and M8 are, at least, under construction already), and all these should be finished by the end of 2010.

Also, the N18 Gort to Crusheen and M18 Gort to Athenry (M6) will hopefully commence next year (pending how long the tendering process takes), and the latter project looks as if it will include the construction of much of the M6-M17/M18 interchange (this includes the M17/M18 overpass), so I guess that the M17 is actually high on the agenda. My guess is 2009 for construction to commence.

Regards!

Chris_533976 · 20-12-2007 11:35am

Q4 2008 for construction start on the N18 schemes. Archaeology is being done at the moment and I think tree/hedge clearance soon.

According to the NRA its Q4 2008 start, but you know how it is with contractors actually starting quite a while before the sod turning ceremonies.

D.L.R. · 20-12-2007 2:54pm

I'm somewhat surprised/confused as to why the N17/18 is getting priority over the N20. Surely more traffic/congestion on the 20 than the 17 (?)

E92 · 20-12-2007 3:20pm

Because more people vote for Feel and Fail up there than down here, perhaps? They lost a lot of votes in Cork this time(though not a lot of seats unfortunately, actually it was just 2 of the 19 Dáil seats Cork is represented by, at least the people in my constituency had the decency to eject one of them(South Central)and along with the good people of Cork South West). Cork is neglected by the Government transport wise in general anyway.

Chris_533976 · 20-12-2007 5:43pm

Plus the N18/17 come under the general political field of 'the Wehst' so get priority under the 'regional development and lets be nice to the Wehst' stakes.

The N20 connects Cork and Limerick and to put it bluntly, people dont moan about it as much. Theres no so much political will to get it done as there is will the stuff in the west.

Although the N18 needs doing as I've said many times, its a disgrace that its going to be finished before the N20 Mallow-Croom section (at least) is touched.

Zoney · 20-12-2007 11:59pm

Chris,

I do agree about the importance of the N20, but the N18 isn't really much less important.

Don't forget that the N18 not only has the N19 link to Shannon, but also serves Ennis which is rather a large town roughly the size of Navan (~24K/25K incl environs); bigger than Sligo (which has an entire "intercity" line to Dublin and the N4) and over twice the size of Mallow. Shannon in fact is not much smaller than Mallow.

So the N20 correspondingly has less intermediate traffic, and on all our national roads, end-to-end intercity traffic is limited enough. Even on the N7 and N8, the sections with mostly just intercity traffic (Nenagh BP or New Inn) see less traffic (about 10,000 AADT) than the capacity of standard two lane road. In fact the N9 between N7 and N10 junctions sees more traffic than that!

Of course, we probably should have more intercity traffic, it is likely constrained by having goat tracks serving as national roads in places.

spacetweek · 25-12-2007 1:36am

loyatemu wrote: »

I think the important question here is - Will the Sawdoctors be re-recording their song?

# And I wish I was on that M17 #
# Blue signs and the median's green #
# Travellin' with my satnav on screen #

icdg · 25-12-2007 2:46pm

spacetweek wrote: »

# And I wish I was on that M17 #
# Blue signs and the median's green #
# Travellin' with my satnav on screen #

Yeah, except the median won't be green, its gonna be another concrete barrier job like many recent schemes.

murphaph · 25-12-2007 4:50pm

icdg wrote: »

Yeah, except the median won't be green, its gonna be another concrete barrier job like many recent schemes.

So "stone walls and the grass is green" can stay?

gally74 · 25-12-2007 7:07pm

great news here,

this will be a great road for the West of ireland and open up the whole provience

galwayrush · 25-12-2007 7:09pm

gally74 wrote: »

great news here,

this will be a great road for the West of ireland and open up the whole provience

Yeah, it might remove 10% of Rush Hour Traffic from the existing N17:(

gally74 · 26-12-2007 11:02am

galwayrush wrote: »

Yeah, it might remove 10% of Rush Hour Traffic from the existing N17:(

thats quite negative given Christmas and all,

the surveys showed that this route would remove some 60% of traffic off the current N17,

now i use this road myself and mess with claregalway everyday, but you have to consider all the traffic that are not galway bound and secondly all the commuters that are going to use this to pick up on the new outer bypass,

if you want pay the designers a visit, their in ballybrit, but these people are engineers and they do research before they pick a route!

Peace to all

Chris_533976 · 26-12-2007 12:19pm

The designers do need a kick up the 'long term planning' arse when it comes to the 3 level stacked roundabout of the N6/17/18. Tell them to put a whirlpool or figure of 8 interchange in instead

spacetweek · 27-12-2007 2:11pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The designers do need a kick up the 'long term planning' arse when it comes to the 3 level stacked roundabout of the N6/17/18. Tell them to put a whirlpool or figure of 8 interchange in instead

Good point, but it'll take ages for that interchange to fill - and even if it did, being away from built up areas means that it'd be easy and cheap to upgrade.

murphaph · 27-12-2007 2:29pm

No it won't. The three level stack is notorious as being amongst the most complex and expensive to upgrade to freeflow. There are examples of this across the water. They plan a MSA in the area adjacent to this roundabout-how long before add-on development surrounds it and then the expense skyrockets further. Why can't we just learn the lessons from mistakes made by others and avoid them?!

Zoney · 28-12-2007 12:07pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Good point, but it'll take ages for that interchange to fill - and even if it did, being away from built up areas means that it'd be easy and cheap to upgrade.

Really? Under what assumption are you making that analysis? The N17 had an AADT of 22546 in 2006. Whatever of that traffic is in the Tuam->Galway direction, it will have to weave on the roundabout across Galway->Limerick traffic heading for the N18. That will very likely not be good even now, nevermind considering future growth.

The "three level stack" is a fancy name for something that involves a lot of the traffic passing through this particular junction ending up going around a simple roundabout (which just happens to be above/below other traffic flows).

Chris_533976 · 28-12-2007 12:37pm

I'd still rather a freeflow, but I'm not convinced the 3level will be as bad as everyone says.

Morning rush hour - Traffic will be coming from the Limerick direction into Galway. That has a freeflow slip. Traffic will be coming from Tuam direction to Galway. That uses the roundabout. Not too much traffic flows on other parts of the roundabout. (Few people live in Galway and work elsewhere)

Evening rush hour - Traffic goes from Galway to Tuam (freeflow slip) and from Galway to Limerick direction (roundabout). Again, the other directions, (eg: Dublin to Tuam direction which would use the roundabout) wont have that much traffic.

Also, since this is an interchange (and hopefully all motorway), the land around it wont be developed too much, apart from the service area. Therefore, to freeflow the Galway to Limerick movement in the future, say, head a mile further down the N6 to Dublin and build a freeflow loop there to join it to the N18.

3level stacks are only evil upgrades when theres no free land nearby, simply because they're a bastard to upgrade when theres nowhere to put the traffic while you build it.

Dont get me wrong though, I'd love a figure of 8 or a whirlpool interchange. NOT a cloverleaf, because Irish drivers are bad enough at weaving as it stands without having to deal with one of those things.

murphaph · 28-12-2007 1:14pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong though, I'd love a figure of 8 or a whirlpool interchange. NOT a cloverleaf, because Irish drivers are bad enough at weaving as it stands without having to deal with one of those things.

Dunno-there'll be more weaving on the roundabout than if they went with a cheapo cloverleaf (which work well in many places in fairness and would be cheaper than the stacked roundabout!).

I just can't find an example of a stacked roundabout that people don't complain about....

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/60-62-66.shtml

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/1-62.shtml

The traffic planners in the UK believed these junctions would suffice. They didn't intentionally build them to be running over capacity.

I don't even know if it's fair to say that irish drivers are bad weavers. J9/J10 on the M50 are very close and I've never seen an accident there despite a LOT of weaving at all hours of the day.

Chris_533976 · 28-12-2007 3:43pm

You should drive on the N25 near Kinsale Road roundabout or near Dunkettle in Cork. How there isnt a daily accident there I'll never know.

murphaph · 28-12-2007 3:44pm

Ok, maybe Dublin drivers are good weavers!

Zoney · 28-12-2007 5:24pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

You should drive on the N25 near Kinsale Road roundabout or near Dunkettle in Cork. How there isnt a daily accident there I'll never know.

I thought that accidents along the N25 South Ring were indeed a near-daily occurence, from what I've heard from people I know who commute along there. It is really pretty hairy in places, even with the "Magic Roundabout" finally getting grade separated.

Cork has pretty decent roads, but it correspondingly is a pretty daunting place to drive around for the uninitiated, with a lot of multi-lane arrangements and pretty crazy drivers.

JupiterKid · 28-12-2007 5:48pm

I think the three level stack roundabout is the cheap n' nasty option. They built several of these in the UK during the 60s and 70s and now seriously regret it as most are overloaded with traffic and upgrading them (as was done with the M1/M62 junction) is very, very complex and expensive.

I would hope the NRA get some sense and build a whirlpool interchange at this location instead. I agree about a cloverleaf being a bad idea - they were the very first type of motorway-motorway interchange and weaving is a real problem. They're very passe now and are being replaced in the USA and Germany where they are common.

Victor · 29-12-2007 7:04pm

Folks, we're talking about Galway here, not Houston.

murphaph wrote: »

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/60-62-66.shtml

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/1-62.shtml

I think people are failing to realise how important those junctions are in the UK, one of them on the Manchester ring road (M60) - 8 lanes wide and the branches are all 7 or 8 lanes. The M1-M62 junction has arms of 10, 8 (two) and 6 lanes.

murphaph · 29-12-2007 9:50pm

Victor wrote: »

Folks, we're talking about Galway here, not Houston.I think people are failing to realise how important those junctions are in the UK, one of them on the Manchester ring road (M60) - 8 lanes wide and the branches are all 7 or 8 lanes. The M1-M62 junction has arms of 10, 8 (two) and 6 lanes.

Sorry Victor-that's what the british planners got so wrong 30 years ago. Those junctions were both built like that as they were not originally built as the crossing of 2 long distance motorways and were set in rural locations. We are going to connect the main east-west motorway with the "Atlantic Corridor" with a roundabout. I promise you that if this junction is built as a stacked roundabout it will have traffic problems within 5 years.

Currently the volumes of Cork->Limerick->Galway->Sligo->Derry traffic is relatively light as the roads are diabolical. Once you offer motorway from Cork to Tuam and a heavily upgraded N17 north, to tie in to a proper Sligo bypass on to Northern Ireland-AVOIDING DUBLIN you will see a massive increase in traffic on the western seaboard. The junction of any motorway-motorway should be fully freeflowing no matter where it is IMO.

I think we need to look at the cost....I believe a fully freeflowing solution would cost in the same region as a stacked r'about as you can build one (like the M50, N4) on just 2 levels whereas the stacked r'about has to have at least 3.

Chris_533976 · 04-01-2008 6:21pm

10km tailbacks at Claregalway today (in the snow). I think the M17 needs to be built quite soon.

murphaph · 04-01-2008 6:27pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

10km tailbacks at Claregalway today (in the snow). I think the M17 needs to be built quite soon.

....and not with a stacked roundabout. Have you seen that dutch guy's pictures on SABRE with many cloverleafs over there, even on new build motorways from the recent past? They work well apparently. It would be cheaper than the roundabout option too.

Chris_533976 · 04-01-2008 6:34pm

I saw a thread on Skyscraper city about it, why they dont build one of these -

I'll never know

I might send an email to the NRA about it, however I really dont think it would get anywhere as the docs are gone though and it would require assing about with 3 different schemes to sort it.

Irish and Proud · 06-01-2008 8:34pm

murphaph wrote: »

....and not with a stacked roundabout. Have you seen that dutch guy's pictures on SABRE with many cloverleafs over there, even on new build motorways from the recent past? They work well apparently. It would be cheaper than the roundabout option too.

Clover-leafs are apparently nasty too - with all the inefficient lane weaving. However, a three level rotary junction would be relatively costly with at least 5 bridges required - two standard structures for the roundabout across the M6, one wide high level bridge for the M17/M18 across same, and two standard underpasses to carry the roundabout beneath the M17/M18 alignment. I would reckon that with the proposed free-flow left slips and possible future implementation of traffic signals on the roundabout, the junction would probably hold for 15 to 20 years before snarling up.

For probably less money, an M50 upgrade style free-flow arrangement would be much more appropriate and would probably last 30 to 40 years before a drastic redesign is warranted. The number of bridges required would be 4 - one bridge over the M6 carrying 2 single lane loops and one carriageway for the M17/M18, another bridge carrying the other M17/M18 carriageway over same, plus two single lane crossover underpasses below the M17/M18. The left slips would be more or less as currently planned. However, the junction would only require 2 levels which should represent a significant economy in the design.

Regards!

gally74 · 20-01-2008 9:07am

saw a drilling machine up near corofin on the path of the new m17, some work underway?

Chris_533976 · 20-01-2008 12:32pm

I'd say preliminary works, as tenders havent been signed and probobly arent close to being signed either.

I'd be very surprised if this is started before 2010, 2011.

N17 Galway to Tuam dual carriageway confirmed to be M17

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