N17 Galway to Tuam dual carriageway confirmed to be M17

galwayrush

gally74 wrote: »

great news here,

this will be a great road for the West of ireland and open up the whole provience

Yeah, it might remove 10% of Rush Hour Traffic from the existing N17:(

gally74

galwayrush wrote: »

Yeah, it might remove 10% of Rush Hour Traffic from the existing N17:(

thats quite negative given Christmas and all,

the surveys showed that this route would remove some 60% of traffic off the current N17,

now i use this road myself and mess with claregalway everyday, but you have to consider all the traffic that are not galway bound and secondly all the commuters that are going to use this to pick up on the new outer bypass,

if you want pay the designers a visit, their in ballybrit, but these people are engineers and they do research before they pick a route!

Peace to all

Chris_533976

The designers do need a kick up the 'long term planning' arse when it comes to the 3 level stacked roundabout of the N6/17/18. Tell them to put a whirlpool or figure of 8 interchange in instead

spacetweek

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The designers do need a kick up the 'long term planning' arse when it comes to the 3 level stacked roundabout of the N6/17/18. Tell them to put a whirlpool or figure of 8 interchange in instead

Good point, but it'll take ages for that interchange to fill - and even if it did, being away from built up areas means that it'd be easy and cheap to upgrade.

murphaph

No it won't. The three level stack is notorious as being amongst the most complex and expensive to upgrade to freeflow. There are examples of this across the water. They plan a MSA in the area adjacent to this roundabout-how long before add-on development surrounds it and then the expense skyrockets further. Why can't we just learn the lessons from mistakes made by others and avoid them?!

Zoney

spacetweek wrote: »

Good point, but it'll take ages for that interchange to fill - and even if it did, being away from built up areas means that it'd be easy and cheap to upgrade.

Really? Under what assumption are you making that analysis? The N17 had an AADT of 22546 in 2006. Whatever of that traffic is in the Tuam->Galway direction, it will have to weave on the roundabout across Galway->Limerick traffic heading for the N18. That will very likely not be good even now, nevermind considering future growth.

The "three level stack" is a fancy name for something that involves a lot of the traffic passing through this particular junction ending up going around a simple roundabout (which just happens to be above/below other traffic flows).

Chris_533976

I'd still rather a freeflow, but I'm not convinced the 3level will be as bad as everyone says.

Morning rush hour - Traffic will be coming from the Limerick direction into Galway. That has a freeflow slip. Traffic will be coming from Tuam direction to Galway. That uses the roundabout. Not too much traffic flows on other parts of the roundabout. (Few people live in Galway and work elsewhere)

Evening rush hour - Traffic goes from Galway to Tuam (freeflow slip) and from Galway to Limerick direction (roundabout). Again, the other directions, (eg: Dublin to Tuam direction which would use the roundabout) wont have that much traffic.

Also, since this is an interchange (and hopefully all motorway), the land around it wont be developed too much, apart from the service area. Therefore, to freeflow the Galway to Limerick movement in the future, say, head a mile further down the N6 to Dublin and build a freeflow loop there to join it to the N18.

3level stacks are only evil upgrades when theres no free land nearby, simply because they're a bastard to upgrade when theres nowhere to put the traffic while you build it.


Dont get me wrong though, I'd love a figure of 8 or a whirlpool interchange. NOT a cloverleaf, because Irish drivers are bad enough at weaving as it stands without having to deal with one of those things.

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong though, I'd love a figure of 8 or a whirlpool interchange. NOT a cloverleaf, because Irish drivers are bad enough at weaving as it stands without having to deal with one of those things.

Dunno-there'll be more weaving on the roundabout than if they went with a cheapo cloverleaf (which work well in many places in fairness and would be cheaper than the stacked roundabout!).

I just can't find an example of a stacked roundabout that people don't complain about....

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/60-62-66.shtml

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/1-62.shtml

The traffic planners in the UK believed these junctions would suffice. They didn't intentionally build them to be running over capacity.

I don't even know if it's fair to say that irish drivers are bad weavers. J9/J10 on the M50 are very close and I've never seen an accident there despite a LOT of weaving at all hours of the day.

Chris_533976

You should drive on the N25 near Kinsale Road roundabout or near Dunkettle in Cork. How there isnt a daily accident there I'll never know.

murphaph

Ok, maybe Dublin drivers are good weavers!

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote: »

You should drive on the N25 near Kinsale Road roundabout or near Dunkettle in Cork. How there isnt a daily accident there I'll never know.

I thought that accidents along the N25 South Ring were indeed a near-daily occurence, from what I've heard from people I know who commute along there. It is really pretty hairy in places, even with the "Magic Roundabout" finally getting grade separated.

Cork has pretty decent roads, but it correspondingly is a pretty daunting place to drive around for the uninitiated, with a lot of multi-lane arrangements and pretty crazy drivers.

JupiterKid

I think the three level stack roundabout is the cheap n' nasty option. They built several of these in the UK during the 60s and 70s and now seriously regret it as most are overloaded with traffic and upgrading them (as was done with the M1/M62 junction) is very, very complex and expensive.

I would hope the NRA get some sense and build a whirlpool interchange at this location instead. I agree about a cloverleaf being a bad idea - they were the very first type of motorway-motorway interchange and weaving is a real problem. They're very passe now and are being replaced in the USA and Germany where they are common.

Victor

Folks, we're talking about Galway here, not Houston.

murphaph wrote: »

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/60-62-66.shtml

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/1-62.shtml

I think people are failing to realise how important those junctions are in the UK, one of them on the Manchester ring road (M60) - 8 lanes wide and the branches are all 7 or 8 lanes. The M1-M62 junction has arms of 10, 8 (two) and 6 lanes.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

Folks, we're talking about Galway here, not Houston.I think people are failing to realise how important those junctions are in the UK, one of them on the Manchester ring road (M60) - 8 lanes wide and the branches are all 7 or 8 lanes. The M1-M62 junction has arms of 10, 8 (two) and 6 lanes.

Sorry Victor-that's what the british planners got so wrong 30 years ago. Those junctions were both built like that as they were not originally built as the crossing of 2 long distance motorways and were set in rural locations. We are going to connect the main east-west motorway with the "Atlantic Corridor" with a roundabout. I promise you that if this junction is built as a stacked roundabout it will have traffic problems within 5 years.

Currently the volumes of Cork->Limerick->Galway->Sligo->Derry traffic is relatively light as the roads are diabolical. Once you offer motorway from Cork to Tuam and a heavily upgraded N17 north, to tie in to a proper Sligo bypass on to Northern Ireland-AVOIDING DUBLIN you will see a massive increase in traffic on the western seaboard. The junction of any motorway-motorway should be fully freeflowing no matter where it is IMO.

I think we need to look at the cost....I believe a fully freeflowing solution would cost in the same region as a stacked r'about as you can build one (like the M50, N4) on just 2 levels whereas the stacked r'about has to have at least 3.

Chris_533976

10km tailbacks at Claregalway today (in the snow). I think the M17 needs to be built quite soon.

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote: »

10km tailbacks at Claregalway today (in the snow). I think the M17 needs to be built quite soon.

....and not with a stacked roundabout. Have you seen that dutch guy's pictures on SABRE with many cloverleafs over there, even on new build motorways from the recent past? They work well apparently. It would be cheaper than the roundabout option too.

Chris_533976

I saw a thread on Skyscraper city about it, why they dont build one of these -



I'll never know

I might send an email to the NRA about it, however I really dont think it would get anywhere as the docs are gone though and it would require assing about with 3 different schemes to sort it.

Irish and Proud

murphaph wrote: »

....and not with a stacked roundabout. Have you seen that dutch guy's pictures on SABRE with many cloverleafs over there, even on new build motorways from the recent past? They work well apparently. It would be cheaper than the roundabout option too.

Clover-leafs are apparently nasty too - with all the inefficient lane weaving. However, a three level rotary junction would be relatively costly with at least 5 bridges required - two standard structures for the roundabout across the M6, one wide high level bridge for the M17/M18 across same, and two standard underpasses to carry the roundabout beneath the M17/M18 alignment. I would reckon that with the proposed free-flow left slips and possible future implementation of traffic signals on the roundabout, the junction would probably hold for 15 to 20 years before snarling up.

For probably less money, an M50 upgrade style free-flow arrangement would be much more appropriate and would probably last 30 to 40 years before a drastic redesign is warranted. The number of bridges required would be 4 - one bridge over the M6 carrying 2 single lane loops and one carriageway for the M17/M18, another bridge carrying the other M17/M18 carriageway over same, plus two single lane crossover underpasses below the M17/M18. The left slips would be more or less as currently planned. However, the junction would only require 2 levels which should represent a significant economy in the design.

Regards!

gally74

saw a drilling machine up near corofin on the path of the new m17, some work underway?

Chris_533976

I'd say preliminary works, as tenders havent been signed and probobly arent close to being signed either.

I'd be very surprised if this is started before 2010, 2011.

rekrow

I have to laugh at the NRA naming schemes. The new N/M17 will go from Tuam to Galway (Rathmorrissy in small letters). The last phase of the N18 will go from Gort to Oranmore. Strange how they end up at the same point in the map. The Gort/Oranmore scheme is actually closer to Athenry than it is to Oranmore! I wonder what they mean by the Tuam to Galway scheme. Is that Galway the county? If so why don't they call it the Galway to Galway scheme. It surely doesn't mean Galway the city!!! Since the end point is further along the Galway/Dublin road (11-12 km) Than Claregalway is from Galway city then it surely can't be referring to the city.

As I really, really, really want the traffic problem in Claregalway solved I hope what the NRA is proposing works. But I have two major concerns: NRA traffic counter data shows a 40% increase 1km south of the N17/N63 junction (8400 journeys) more than 6km North of the N17/N63 junction as of Aug 2007. This figure falls back to 13600 when you get to Gort. So you can take it at least 8k journeys will have to go from Claregalway out the Roscommon road and onto the Motorway travel to Athenry join the N6 and come into Oranmore. I can't see that happening. If it does it won't do much for our carbon footprint.

Second concern. At the moment the traffic coming into the city is split between the Tuam and Oranmore roads. Under the new plan all N6/17/18 traffic will come into a roundabout on the Oranmore Dual Carriageway. I can't wait to see that road rage!!!

Also strange that the south ring road around Limerick is part of the Transport21 while the road around Galway isn't. Secondly the proposed outer bypass will have no exit onto the old Tuam Road (by old I am referring to what the existing N17 will be called when the new M17 is built in 2015). Given that Ballybrit and Parkmore Business parks are located near where the two roads meet it would make sense to put a junction there. Maybe I don't have a degree in road planning but these things look quite obvious to me. Am I stupid?

As for E92's earlier comment "This however shows how much our roads are neglected in Cork" I would disagree. I know limerick/cork road is bad near the limerick border but at least around the city it moves a bit better. My recent trips to Cork may have coincided with light traffic, and I know there are roads in Cork that do need improvement, but there is no need to be jealous of Galway. You can take my word for it after living here for 8 years. Cork city has a South Ring road and now has proposals in for a North Ring road. Galway doesn't have any and won't for some time to come! Looking forward to the day when there is a Dual-carraigeway from Cork to Galway (well Rathmorrissy at least).

murphaph

rekrow wrote: »

I have to laugh at the NRA naming schemes. The new N/M17 will go from Tuam to Galway (Rathmorrissy in small letters). The last phase of the N18 will go from Gort to Oranmore. Strange how they end up at the same point in the map. The Gort/Oranmore scheme is actually closer to Athenry than it is to Oranmore! I wonder what they mean by the Tuam to Galway scheme. Is that Galway the county? If so why don't they call it the Galway to Galway scheme. It surely doesn't mean Galway the city!!! Since the end point is further along the Galway/Dublin road (11-12 km) Than Claregalway is from Galway city then it surely can't be referring to the city.

As I really, really, really want the traffic problem in Claregalway solved I hope what the NRA is proposing works. But I have two major concerns: NRA traffic counter data shows a 40% increase 1km south of the N17/N63 junction (8400 journeys) more than 6km North of the N17/N63 junction as of Aug 2007. This figure falls back to 13600 when you get to Gort. So you can take it at least 8k journeys will have to go from Claregalway out the Roscommon road and onto the Motorway travel to Athenry join the N6 and come into Oranmore. I can't see that happening. If it does it won't do much for our carbon footprint.

Second concern. At the moment the traffic coming into the city is split between the Tuam and Oranmore roads. Under the new plan all N6/17/18 traffic will come into a roundabout on the Oranmore Dual Carriageway. I can't wait to see that road rage!!!

Also strange that the south ring road around Limerick is part of the Transport21 while the road around Galway isn't. Secondly the proposed outer bypass will have no exit onto the old Tuam Road (by old I am referring to what the existing N17 will be called when the new M17 is built in 2015). Given that Ballybrit and Parkmore Business parks are located near where the two roads meet it would make sense to put a junction there. Maybe I don't have a degree in road planning but these things look quite obvious to me. Am I stupid?

As for E92's earlier comment "This however shows how much our roads are neglected in Cork" I would disagree. I know limerick/cork road is bad near the limerick border but at least around the city it moves a bit better. My recent trips to Cork may have coincided with light traffic, and I know there are roads in Cork that do need improvement, but there is no need to be jealous of Galway. You can take my word for it after living here for 8 years. Cork city has a South Ring road and now has proposals in for a North Ring road. Galway doesn't have any and won't for some time to come! Looking forward to the day when there is a Dual-carraigeway from Cork to Galway (well Rathmorrissy at least).

I think a fundamental issue here is that from the outset our great leaders decided to replicate all the major national routes in motorway form, instead of looking at the country as a blank canvas as the UK did when they planned their (still incomplete) network.

The N20/N18/N17 don't have to pass within metres of any city to provide a useful national corridor. We have to understand that this can't be the end of the roads development programme. Claregalway may well need a bypass in addition to the M17, for example.

As to why the N7 Limerick Southern Ring is part of T21 and Galway's proposed outer bypass is not, well let's be honest....there's virtually nothing beyond Galway apart from Conemara. Beyond Limerick is the Shannon Tunnel which is part of the N17/18/20 corridor of course, also to be found are reasonable sized towns and an entire county....Kerry, with some large regional towns.

Chris_533976

rekrow wrote: »

Second concern. At the moment the traffic coming into the city is split between the Tuam and Oranmore roads. Under the new plan all N6/17/18 traffic will come into a roundabout on the Oranmore Dual Carriageway. I can't wait to see that road rage!!!

I've been saying this for ages, until the Galway Outer Bypass is done you're gonna get all traffic from the N6, N18 and N17 all crashing to a halt on one roundabout. Thats gonna be a laugh a minute.

rekrow

If I may come back on a couple of points.

1. "well let's be honest....there's virtually nothing beyond Galway apart from Conemara". Many people would take issue with what you are saying here. While Knocknacarra, Barna, Oughterhard, Moycullen, and Clifden may not be huge urban centres, they are home to many taxpayers. My point is that the current proposal of finishing road to Galway to the East rather than the West is going to create a traffic nightmare. If you want to be so specific there is nothing to the west of Limerick only the Shannon estuary. The point is the road won't stop at one point in the city. There will be a link to different entry points. Ditto for Waterford and Cork.

2. "The N20/N18/N17 don't have to pass within metres of any city to provide a useful national corridor. We have to understand that this can't be the end of the roads development programme. Claregalway may well need a bypass in addition to the M17, for example." I don't for one minute disagree with you. The problem is many of the politicians think that the new M17 will solve the issues of claregalway. Many of the small towns around Galway and other areas of Ireland I'm sure have been allowed to develop. Because they happen to be on existing national routes the are being handled National Road Authority. They seem to be more focused on moving traffic between the large urban centres. It's time for the LRA (ie Galway co. co.) to put together transport plan for the commuter towns around the county.

Chris_533976

That might happen though, cos when the M17 is built, the current N17 through Claregalway will be de-trunked, wont it? (a la N8 in Fermoy once M8 was built). It'll be renamed like R354 or something. That then falls under the Local Authorities and not the NRA, so they can pop up a bypass if it needs it.

rekrow

True. It's just a pity that we'll have to wait until 2015 to be removed from the grip of the NRA. Reading through your earlier post regarding the junction of the N6/17/18 Junction and the stacked roundabout. Does anyone know how much of the junction is included in the N6 scheme? Will the full junction with access routes be built with the first scheme, or will there be lane closures speed limits, and red cones á la m50 when they build the other schemes? Same for the Galway/Doughiska end of the PPP on the N6, will the junction be prepared for the ring road or will it be retrofitted when all the traffic is on it?

murphaph

rekrow wrote: »

If I may come back on a couple of points.
Absolutely and before we go on, welcome to boards and this section in particular.

Many people would take issue with what you are saying here. While Knocknacarra, Barna, Oughterhard, Moycullen, and Clifden may not be huge urban centres, they are home to many taxpayers. My point is that the current proposal of finishing road to Galway to the East rather than the West is going to create a traffic nightmare. If you want to be so specific there is nothing to the west of Limerick only the Shannon estuary. The point is the road won't stop at one point in the city. There will be a link to different entry points. Ditto for Waterford and Cork.

I can already see that we will not agree on this issue. I believe that an outer by pass or relief road for Galway (which itself is only technically a city, it is a very small city in the context of the British Isles) is a generally very good idea and have no issue with it being funded but I don't believe it is on strategic national importance on the same scale as the Limerick or Cork southern rings as they cater for both larger cities (also small in the context) and with larger industrial centres and the roads actually continue on to relatively populated places whereas the towns you mentioned aren't. That's why I believe it's ok that Galway's outer bypass isn't included in T21. The argument that there are taxpayers in x town so they deserve x is a red herring as if that were the case we could argue for motorway links to the Aran Islands. In time, Galway should get a bypass, that's important to note.

I don't for one minute disagree with you. The problem is many of the politicians think that the new M17 will solve the issues of claregalway. Many of the small towns around Galway and other areas of Ireland I'm sure have been allowed to develop. Because they happen to be on existing national routes the are being handled National Road Authority. They seem to be more focused on moving traffic between the large urban centres. It's time for the LRA (ie Galway co. co.) to put together transport plan for the commuter towns around the county

Well, many of our problems can be traced back to inept politicians! Galway (as well as the majority of county councils, even in the Greater Dublin Region) needs to get its planning in order and halt sprawl in every way possible. People should really take a leaf of of South Dublin County Council's book and get out of the blinkered mindset. All development or at least the majority should be centred around providing quality public transport links and keeping people out of their cars in the first place.

murphaph

rekrow wrote: »

True. It's just a pity that we'll have to wait until 2015 to be removed from the grip of the NRA. Reading through your earlier post regarding the junction of the N6/17/18 Junction and the stacked roundabout. Does anyone know how much of the junction is included in the N6 scheme? Will the full junction with access routes be built with the first scheme, or will there be lane closures speed limits, and red cones á la m50 when they build the other schemes? Same for the Galway/Doughiska end of the PPP on the N6, will the junction be prepared for the ring road or will it be retrofitted when all the traffic is on it?

There seem to be few details available. I will be bitterly disappointed (even though I might never use one of the non-freeflow movements) if they don't bulid a fully freeflowing junction of some description from day one. A stacked roundabout is absolute madness in this day and age and would (in my non-civil engineering opinion) require more of everything except land to build than a partiallt unrolled cloverleaf anyway. The mind boggles. Mid-Galway can hardly be described as devoid of spare land!

Carawaystick

http://www.galwaycoco.ie/roads/n6_bsloe/maps.html#

http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/RoadProjects/

Neworder79

Good to see plans coming along for the "Atlantic corridor". With the Galway - Tuam M17, Claremorris-Knock by-pass 2+1 retrofit and the proposed Charlestown - Tubbercurry N17 dual carrigeway most of the Galway to Sligo route will be of good quality.

But what happens when you leave motorway north of Tuam. One of the worst stretches of the the N17 is from Tuam to the Mayo border, narrow dangerous bends and side roads to Ballendine. Are Galway and Mayo CoCos working on a realignment for this stretch?