Poll concerning SS/WW2 related threads

iceage · 11-12-2007 01:02AM

Boston wrote: »

The please think of the image argument is really getting old. Bottom line is this, if some guy goes out and buys an airsoft gun, registers www.ssnaziswithairsoftguns.com and prances around a field, I would like to be able to say "hey, that guy is a pratt" on this forum rather then hoping that all those bright sparks out there will realise, upon themselves, that we're not all like that. However boards, being boards is not about one sided discussion.

Its not a case of getting old Boston. Its the way it is..you want to bury Air soft in Ireland before it even gets a chance to get really off the ground..if so you get on the wagon.. if not..cop the **** on!!

OK..did I really tell a Moderator to cop the f**k on? I did didn't i!!

Rew · 11-12-2007 01:03AM

I voted no. Theatrical presentations, re-enacting and airsoft are all differant things. I don't belive people should wear real ranks and insignia etc. while playing airsoft. It add's nothing to the game IMHO. If anything it throws petrol on the walter mitty fire thats always smoulderng away. Making up your own I don't have an issue with. If you want to be just like a real soldier then be a real soldier and everything that goes with it and join an army.

I think airsofters already put far too much weight behind having an amazing loadout and sexy cammo. In reality you can play just as well or better then anyone else in tshirt and jeans. The fun of playing, thats the bit that people should be concentrating on.

I generally don't care too much for political correctness but dressing up like the SS is so far beyound a smart well thought out idea that I cann't fathom the resoning behind it. Do they want to play a senario with an american team based on the time they executed allied POW's, wow that would be fun....

Black Edelweiss · 11-12-2007 01:11AM

There are SS airsoft groups all over the world, in places like england and america, countries who actually fought and died at the hands of the SS, why can they get over it and we cannot. Check out this link for a proper ww2 airsoft team. http://www.ww2airsoft.org.uk/ . Maybe the reason airsoft is getting a bad name is becuase it lacks any direction or purpose. Reenactment groups are accepted becuase they try to accuratly portray historical events, however distasteful they may be. The public probably see airsoft as just a load of guys running around with real looking guns pretending to be soilders. Why not give the sport some structure, make it have a purpose, educate and entertain. As bullets said, the guys were recreating the talliban, could there be any more controversial group in the world today, why not have an IRA vs the Parachute regiment or the sas, it would be a bit of craic. Let the papers say what they want, in the late 80's, dance music was an underground scene in england until the papers got hold of it, gave it some really bad press and it turned into the biggest musical movement since rock n roll.
I work in a hospital where there are several Iraqi and Iranian doctors, if I brought them to an event would they be offended by the american uniforms, what would you do if they complained? Would they be allowed to attend wearing their own clothes, they might look like iraqi insurgents or sucicide bombers.
Maybe what airsoft needs to do is to split into two groups, the historical reenactment side where any uniform is welcomed and nobody will be offended, and they have to deal with their own press, be it bad or good, and the non political/historical side who just wear military uniforms of their choice, weapons of their choice, no flags, banners, insignia, let individual units make their own insignia to define who they want to be. This group will in no way be held accountable for the actions or reputation of the historical teams and vice versa. teams can attend both meetings, just leave any flags or insignia at home for the non historical guys.
The sport is still in its infancy but as you can see opinion is divided, almost 50/50 at this stage, it will be a long road, but as they say "War is Hell".
As for discuss / not discuss, modern society is built upon the right of free speach, the right to discuss, there is a line not to cross, you cannot incite racial hatred but we have to be able to discuss.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

Lemming · 11-12-2007 01:26AM

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

I'm going to jump in here guys with something that is not relevant to the discussion but HIGHLY relevant to boards.ie in general.

You do not, never have had, or ever will have, freedom of speech on boards.ie so please don't start with cries of 'oppression', etc. You post here at the discretion of the site administrators and the guidelines as set down for each forum by the admins and/or moderators.

Be under no illusions regarding that little point.

TelePaul · 11-12-2007 01:31AM

Not a regular contributor to the paintball forum, but it doesn't appear that the issue in question is particularly relevant to paintball. As someone with an avid interest in WW2, I'm quite interested in seeing how this one pans out!

I voted that all discussion of German based militarism be allowed. Unless I'm missing something - as I said, I havn't been privy to the former threads surrounding this issue - censorship of a particular facet of the worlds most important war is a great injustice to a plethora of people.

I once read that the German version of the popular computer game Medal of Honour was edited to remove Swastikas, an act which baffles me. Let's not kid ourselves, distancing ourselves from something after the fact doesn't change the reality that it happened in the first place; perhaps this is the reason that denial of the Holocaust's existence is a crime in many western states.

But where do you draw the line when it comes to censorship? The bombing of Dresden may be considered by some as no less despicable than select SS attrocities. Guys this is something of a minefield, it's probably best to try keep everything in perspective; it's a sport, border-line historical re-enactment, not a political endeavour.

iceage · 11-12-2007 01:38AM

sport, yes.. uniforms, yess.. politics/bull****/agenda/history/(no)...sport....yes.

Airsoft....yes..
(paintball without the paint/pain! and better looking markers!!):D

yes!!!!!

iceage · 11-12-2007 02:04AM

Again let me reiterate, I personally have no problem with military re-inactment/displays and so on. With an ex-military background, I applaud it, the sport of Airsoft has given me a new lease of interest in the art of "carrying arms" although they be harmless and safe examples of the real steel.

I'm curious as to this interest in the subject of wwII. I see your new to the forums, this being your first post an all, so welcome!! At the moment Airsoft sport here is in its infancy, so it needs time to "settle in" you might say, like paintball, and other newish sports it takes time for it to get a base, if you know what I mean. so stick around, you might even get to like it!!

AirsoftEire.com · 11-12-2007 02:13AM

Shiva wrote: »

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

I'll jump on the retailer bandwagon here and agree with Shiva. No matter how level headed you are, or intent on displaying the finest historically accurate detail, 99% of people would not want to wear an SS uniform, or be in any way associated with it. Displaying a collection in glass cases is one thing to complete a collection, but putting on the gear and running round a field just doesn't look right.

People have asked the question "well where do you draw the line then?". Well the obvious answer is with Nazi uniforms.
You could argue until you're blue in the face that the Americans are doing horrorific things in Iraq right now and have all the details to back it up, but that the fact is that the majority of people don't believe that. You can wear American gear up to your eyeballs and no-one will look twice.

It's down to common public perception, you can't mention the word "Nazi" without people conjuring up horrible events in their minds, and that should be the mindset of airsoft players when they put on their airsoft gear.

Steve

o1s1n · 11-12-2007 02:44AM

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

There are SS airsoft groups all over the world, in places like england and america, countries who actually fought and died at the hands of the SS, why can they get over it and we cannot. Check out this link for a proper ww2 airsoft team. http://www.ww2airsoft.org.uk/ . Maybe the reason airsoft is getting a bad name is becuase it lacks any direction or purpose. Reenactment groups are accepted becuase they try to accuratly portray historical events, however distasteful they may be. The public probably see airsoft as just a load of guys running around with real looking guns pretending to be soilders. Why not give the sport some structure, make it have a purpose, educate and entertain. As bullets said, the guys were recreating the talliban, could there be any more controversial group in the world today, why not have an IRA vs the Parachute regiment or the sas, it would be a bit of craic. Let the papers say what they want, in the late 80's, dance music was an underground scene in england until the papers got hold of it, gave it some really bad press and it turned into the biggest musical movement since rock n roll.
I work in a hospital where there are several Iraqi and Iranian doctors, if I brought them to an event would they be offended by the american uniforms, what would you do if they complained? Would they be allowed to attend wearing their own clothes, they might look like iraqi insurgents or sucicide bombers.
Maybe what airsoft needs to do is to split into two groups, the historical reenactment side where any uniform is welcomed and nobody will be offended, and they have to deal with their own press, be it bad or good, and the non political/historical side who just wear military uniforms of their choice, weapons of their choice, no flags, banners, insignia, let individual units make their own insignia to define who they want to be. This group will in no way be held accountable for the actions or reputation of the historical teams and vice versa. teams can attend both meetings, just leave any flags or insignia at home for the non historical guys.
The sport is still in its infancy but as you can see opinion is divided, almost 50/50 at this stage, it will be a long road, but as they say "War is Hell".
As for discuss / not discuss, modern society is built upon the right of free speach, the right to discuss, there is a line not to cross, you cannot incite racial hatred but we have to be able to discuss.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

Thats what you want iceage, and good luck to you with it, enjoy it.
But what about the guys who want to combine it with a bit of history. To each their own.

Creating another account to get around a ban? Not on.

o1s1n · 11-12-2007 03:06AM

nonex wrote: »

so if you realy think about it we would have to bame the Chinese for gun,

Always throwing a spanner into the works

Anyway guys, better get this thread back to its original intention. It was opened purely for the poll and for people to give reasons why they voted. Not to have a discussion.

The poll is to be up running for a week. Don't want to risk it descending into chaos.

Arcto · 11-12-2007 03:24AM

an extremely touchy subject allright. Im in favour of allowing ALL millitary uniforms.....you cannot say its ok to have Russian uniforms and not german. Both killed **** loads of "innocent" civis, dignitars and commited war crimes.

However i can see why people would be upset by seeing an SS uniformed group runnig around HRTA. I wouldnt wear one, however i do own one, becuase in my opinion the SS and regular german army were the best dressed army of the time. They are stylish uniforms. FACT. The ideoligy behind them is quiet questionable though.

I realise this post contradicts itself so let me finish by saying:

a) I would not look down upon someone wearing an SS uniform in airsfot.
b) I personally wouldnt do it.

If you can understand what im getting at, good for you. If you cannot and think im a Nazi sympothiser then * * * * * * * * you sir.

And i cannot remember who brought up the British DPM thing but yes, your correct.....we all get upset by german uniforms yet we have, as an irish nation, suffered far worse from our next door neighbours.

Why do we forgive them?

Ending my post like that sounds like i hate the english. Incorect, i have english relatives and love travelling to london for gigs. Great place. Uh god im getting to far into this....when i have a scroll bar at the side of my post i know its time to call it quits.....PM me for further discussion on this if anyone really does....which i doubt.

Arcto bailing out.......(opens chute)

o1s1n · 11-12-2007 03:29AM

Spam and discussion removed. Time to get strict with this thread. It needs to remain clean.

Remember folks, vote and explain your reason. Leave it at that. Anything else will be deleted.

Boston · 11-12-2007 09:47AM

iceage wrote: »

Its not a case of getting old Boston. Its the way it is..you want to bury Air soft in Ireland before it even gets a chance to get really off the ground..if so you get on the wagon.. if not..cop the **** on!!

OK..did I really tell a Moderator to cop the f**k on? I did didn't i!!

Its an excuse. Try putting some arguments behind it. Discussion of illegal activities on this forum is banned because they are illegal, discussion of real steal is not allowed (in the main anyway) because its not relevant, discussion of SS teams should not be allowed because what? We hope to pretend they don't exist? If a discussion of this topic will kill airsoft in Ireland, then its in pretty terrible state. Banning a topic from discussion is a drastic step, and something you really have to justify. You can't just use "for the greater good" as a catch all answer.

Hivemind187 · 11-12-2007 10:50AM

Vote for the second option for two reasons;

1) This is Boards.ie - like it or not freedom of speech does not exist here. Think of it asa having a chat in someone elses kitchen, if they don't like what you are saying they ask you to stop (sometimes) and then ask you to leave (forcibly). Get used to the concept - I had to

2) The SS were a specific unit from a specific period of history. There is no other reason outside of the context of a historical re-enactment skirmish (specifically referring to Airsoft here) to wear the uniform, deaths head, insignia, eagle daggers, unit numbers, flags, swastika or any of the other paraphenalia unless you are looking to portray yourselves as having some of the same qualities as that specific unit. History belong at such events, uniforms have a place. Insignia do not. If you dont believe me, try it in Germany out of context and see how long it takes them to throw you in prison.

At the end of the day people, this argument is about a specific point of history and a specific group of people. It is not about all uniforms of all nations. British DPM was introduced (the Soldier 95 variety anyway) during the ceasefire after the Good Friday Agreement, it should hold no specific pain for anyone (infact Irish Camouflage is based on it) - but wearing the uniform of the Black & Tans might get you into trouble, wearing their insignia or indentifying marks certainly will.

The SS emblems and other Nazi idols are still in use today by neo-fascists, anti-semites, white-powr movements and underground nazi groups. These emblems and in some cases uniforms, are used to intimidate, terrorise and harass innocent people. This is current, this is now.

I will repeat this for emphasis; if you wear a specific units emblems, you are attempting to use their notoriety or achievments vicariously.

Ample Free ...? · 11-12-2007 10:51AM

In a perfect world I'd vote for open discussion, (with a pinch of common sense of course, I don't think anyone here is really out to offend anyone else) but the more I think about it , in the intrest of airsoft, having the SS insignia or other such things associated with the holocaust is a bit too risky. People are quick to judge and something like this could just fuel anxieties about airsoft.
You don't have to like it, just live with it:rolleyes:

Standard WW2 uniforms - Yes
SS uniforms - No

Stercus Accidit · 11-12-2007 02:40PM

I voted for yes to german infantry, no to SS.

I believe that the ss uniform holds a huge amount of symbolic importance, and is still used today by neo nazis and hate groups.

The SS may be dead but the uniform is still used as a symbol by nazi groups in germany, the US and russia and wherever you may find groups like these.

The war may be over but the uniform is still used, and represents only hate now, not even a military group.

ED E · 11-12-2007 05:58PM

Second option by far.

I dont accept that if we alow say russian insignia ect(example given above) that we have to allow SS symbols ect. Yes, the Nazis we're not the only ones but nobody else slaughtered humans in such a nechanical way and that turned out to be the main activity performed by the SS. I dont see why it isn't possible to just stick with the Whermacht (sp?). There is really no need to replicate the SS.

Lethal.

Mauclerc · 11-12-2007 06:29PM

Wehrmacht.

Same as many other, I'm ok for "regular" german uniforms, but SS uniforms carry too many history, and using it in reenactment or skirmishes won't help the public image of the sport.

Fiach Dubh · 11-12-2007 07:31PM

I voted for allowed discussion because I have an intense dislike of censorship. That being said I'd never press an issue as I know very well that web forums are private property and subject to the owners rules.

Discussion of WWII armies, equipment, etc. In my opinion is not a problem in the context of historical research or even reenacting, the concern seems to be in the prospect that someone may be pushing a secret agenda in the guise of fun. This is, of course, a problem. Most Airsoft groups are going to be themed around a specific countries army and some people will interpret your group as being some kind of defacto propaganda team. As Boston already quite correctly pointed out the Ghosts are not U.S. soldiers and my team are not Russian army, none of the members of my team, including myself are communists. This shouldn't have to said as for one there is no law against being a communist in Europe but I do have to clear this up as I've gotten the impression lately that some people think we are communists. Note I said a few people, 95% of the players I meet have a level head on their shoulders

The problem is not, never has been and never will be, the group you are recreating in a controlled environment. The problem is it spilling outside that environment. Take the Salute military weekend as an example, the WWII reenactment featured German soldiers with full emblems, some SS. I didn't see anybody that seemed to have a problem with this as the context is understood.

In my opinion, wearing WWII German uniforms and equipment in an Airsoft team is fine. Wearing a German WWII uniform and going out to the shops... Eh no. It's all context, discussion should be allowed otherwise you should really ban discussion of all real world armies, regardless of origin.

Gizmodeon · 11-12-2007 09:15PM

In my opinion, wearing WWII German uniforms and equipment in an Airsoft team is fine. Wearing a German WWII uniform and going out to the shops... Eh no. It's all context, discussion should be allowed otherwise you should really ban discussion of all real world armies, regardless of origin.

Here here!
I voted for it to be allowed
Censorship in Airsoft? Isn't the idea of war games in the first place insulting?
any uniform is gonna be offensive to one group or another, even the American ACU!
next you'll be banning the ghosts for Iraq :P

If you're scared of the German army uniform, you should see how many German re-enactors are at the war and peace show

o1s1n · 11-12-2007 09:20PM

Gizmodeon wrote: »

Here here!
I voted for it to be allowed
Censorship in Airsoft? Isn't the idea of war games in the first place insulting?
any uniform is gonna be offensive to one group or another, even the American ACU!
next you'll be banning the ghosts for Iraq :P

If you're scared of the German army uniform, you should see how many German re-enactors are at the war and peace show

I know you were only joking, but just have to make a point again

NOBODY IS BEING BANNED FOR TALKING ABOUT THE SS OR WILL EVER BE BANNED. (Unless they're obviously trolling)

It is to do with threads being locked or allowed. End of.

Hivemind187 · 11-12-2007 09:21PM

Gizmodeon wrote: »

Here here!
I voted for it to be allowed
Censorship in Airsoft? Isn't the idea of war games in the first place insulting?
any uniform is gonna be offensive to one group or another, even the American ACU!
next you'll be banning the ghosts for Iraq :P

If you're scared of the German army uniform, you should see how many German re-enactors are at the war and peace show

Its not censorship in Airsoft. Its censorship on boards which is standard practice.

I notice that even the SS renactment groups tend to distance themselves as much as possible from the loonies in Britain who re-enact and actually believe in the ideals of the third reich.

As for the other uniforms, as i have said already, it is living vicariously through the exploits of others if you portray yourself as being from a specific unit. the ghosts will hardly deny a big Tom Clancy influence will they? That comes across. You turn up to a regular skirmish day in SS regalia, deaths heads etc what is the average person going to infer from that?

ScumLord · 11-12-2007 09:36PM

What would a game be without the bad guys?

This is more of the bickering and nitpicking that really sours airsoft for me. I don't care, I don't take these things seriously and I can't get upset about something that really doesn't affect me. Did any Jew/Pole complain about this?

I wouldn't be surprised if they'd like the idea of looking down a gun sight at an SS uniform.

I appreciate this forum is the public face of Airsoft to a certain extent and the enemy is at the gate but in fighting annoys me no end. At the end of the day this is a reaction to the over reaction of the moral majority that haven't really got a clue what they're talking about (as usual) but nobody should sink to they're level.

o1s1n · 11-12-2007 09:38PM

ScumLord wrote: »

but in fighting annoys me no end.

It's not fighting. Some issues have to be addressed and the outcomes can be..how shall we say, heated.. it's the nature of forums. People disagree on certain issues.

Would you rather me and kdouglas just decided to create rules without asking people? I think not!

Puding · 11-12-2007 09:41PM

I voted for option 2 as a middle ground, i really think a massive dose of common sense is need (i do know thought that common sense is lacking from some people).

Airsoft in Ireland is very new and very open to criticism from a large number of areas, someone running around in and ss can give out the wrong image even if you never ment to give it out in the first place, people can draw offense from many of the conflicts that people model themselves from cold war, Vietnam, ww2 they will cause offense always to some people but certain areas due to there nature will draw even more condemnation as it where, so how ever you dress you need to do it in the right context and the right place.

Myself for example, im very against people dressing in modern gear with real work insignia when people are wearing them and dieing at this moment in time, but that is another topic.

''serving of common sense all round please''

Gizmodeon · 11-12-2007 10:19PM

NOBODY IS BEING BANNED FOR TALKING ABOUT THE SS OR WILL EVER BE BANNED. (Unless they're obviously trolling)

I apologize Oisin, I meant that we'd be banned from wearing the uniform
I understand this is about locking threads
I can't exactly say I agree with what the Americans are doing in Iraq, and to be honest many have compared it to Nazi's, that was my point.

It is getting a little annoying how everyone is trying to spit shine airsoft as a sport for people who can't handle the idea of war
The uniforms, the AEG's, the combat strategy's will all bring attention
If this kind of thing keeps happening, eventually someone will by definition make airsoft boring
the main part of airsoft is re-enactment based, and yes without the bad guys as such, we have a very one sided fight
and judging by the poll at the moment most agree with me

Hivemind187 · 11-12-2007 10:24PM

Gizmodeon wrote: »

I apologize Oisin, I meant that we'd be banned from wearing the uniform
I understand this is about locking threads
I can't exactly say I agree with what the Americans are doing in Iraq, and to be honest many have compared it to Nazi's, that was my point.

It is getting a little annoying how everyone is trying to spit shine airsoft as a sport for people who can't handle the idea of war
The uniforms, the AEG's, the combat strategy's will all bring attention
If this kind of thing keeps happening, eventually someone will by definition make airsoft boring
the main part of airsoft is re-enactment based, and yes without the bad guys as such, we have a very one sided fight
and judging by the poll at the moment most agree with me

Am I to take it that you are invoking Godwins law?

ambro25 · 11-12-2007 10:46PM

Gizmodeon wrote: »

the main part of airsoft is re-enactment based

Am I the only on to find the idea of WW2 Wehrmacht vs Y2K ACU'd US Army anachronistically wrong? :cool:

What, exactly, would such a scenario 're-enact'?

Boston · 11-12-2007 10:50PM

Gizmodeon wrote: »

It is getting a little annoying how everyone is trying to spit shine airsoft as a sport for people who can't handle the idea of war

You know I couldn't sum up my view of this ss business until I read this line. Thats exactly how I feel. I mean the people that can't make a distinction between a guy in a SS uniform now and guy back in 1940s are the same ones who can't see past the camo gear and guns to see a sport. These are the people that look at us and say we are glorifying war. That can't be help, we will never reach this people. Of course I have a problem with some loon who actually trying to glorify the nazis, but I think I can make the distinction between loon and say someone like bullet who likes the uniform.

Puding · 11-12-2007 10:53PM

Airsoft in Ireland does not have much to do with re-enactment at the moment, and i was under the impression we where trying to push airsoft as a sport? not good to cloud the image.

Atm people are not re-enacting they are dressing up they want to pretend to be the sas or navy seal what every you want how ever you look at it that what it comes down to most of the time.

Poll concerning SS/WW2 related threads

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