Poll concerning SS/WW2 related threads

o1s1n

This is an issue which has been going on here for quite some time and really needs to be addressed.

After a good bit of discussion with other moderators, myself and Kdouglas are stilll a bit undecided as how to deal with these threads. So we're opening it to a poll to get some feedback.

The general consensus so far seems to be that certain elements of ww2 German military simulation are okay in given circumstances. Like a milsim event. However, guys running around dressed up as SS officers for the sake of being SS officers is not.

Going to copy over Kdouglases post as he put it very well.

kdouglas wrote: »

the main issues i see with this are public perception of airsoft, and offending people

as it is, airsoft is getting some bad press from the media mainly focusing on the "wrong type" using airsoft for illegal purposes, our common answer to this is they can just as easily use a baseball bat/golf club or even a real gun, the intent is still there, if a reporter decided to turn up to an airsoft site for a day's game undercover and saw people there in full SS outfits, it could turn a possibly positive article about a good days game into a political rant about how we are all a bunch of nazi-wannabe's

secondly, airsoft is one of the most diverse sports in the world, people from all backgrounds and walks of life play side by side and against eachother with little to no politics and zero discrimination, if you were a polish or jewish person turning up to spend a day playing a game with your friends, how would you feel when you see a guy there in full SS uniform? especially so if you had family affected by it?

in reality, both of these issues do concern people actually turning up at an airsoft site to play, therefore whether or not they are allowed to play is up to the site owner, but they are two of the main reasons for me that it should not be allowed

however, personally i'm not offended by the image of the swastika and don't have any problem with people discussing it in principle, but i can understand the need for some sensitivity regarding the issue

having just got off the phone to the site owner an airsoft site, he said his policy will be if they are a re-enactment group and want to play or re-enact during a game every now and again, then that's ok, but no swastika's or the like
however, if they are just a bunch of lads getting a team together and want to run arround in an SS uniform on a weekly basis, then that's a no go

either way, he will have to remain vigilant of other people's opinions

I'll just conclude by saying

This concerns discussion on boards.ie only. It has nothing to do with airsoft sites, players or teams in general.

Posting up images of Swastikas, Lightening bolts or other such insignia will never be okay.

The Master

o1s1n wrote: »

The general consensus so far seems to be that certain elements of ww2 German military simulation are okay in given circumstances. Like a milsim event. However, guys running around dressed up as SS officers for the sake of being SS officers is not.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
Common sense as far as I'm concerned not just SS stuff but any offensive
uniform/symbols or outfits

kdouglas

Also, a point to note:

This thread is for voting or commenting on the poll only, not a discussion regarding the original topic.

Lemming

I voted for full discussion for a couple of reasons (note I'm not discussing, simply pointing out my reasoning for my vote):

history has often shown that large-brush-stroking of groups as simply 'evil' is rarely accurate and very much down to indoctrinated emotional response.

Secondly, where does one draw the line? WW2 German military? How about WW2 US/British bomber crew uniforms/insignia? IDF uniforms/insignia? Russian afghan campaign uniforms/insignia, etc. Where does the line become hypocrisy?

In short, I'm for allowing discussion, but applying a liberal dosage of common-f*cking-sense where needed.

Evolute

Lemming wrote: »

I voted for full discussion for a couple of reasons (note I'm not discussing, simply pointing out my reasoning for my vote):

history has often shown that large-brush-stroking of groups as simply 'evil' is rarely accurate and very much down to indoctrinated emotional response.

Secondly, where does one draw the line? WW2 German military? How about WW2 US/British bomber crew uniforms/insignia? IDF uniforms/insignia? Russian afghan campaign uniforms/insignia, etc. Where does the line become hypocrisy?

In short, I'm for allowing discussion, but applying a liberal dosage of common-f*cking-sense where needed.

I gotta agree with both sides of the arguement but i lean more to the side of no SS for obvious reasons as it can be offensive to people who are jewish and so on Etc. Etc.

Discussion is all well and good needs common sense but all it takes is some idiot to go on about how the rike was the best on the forum and someone to see it and give us all a bad name

Boston

Its difficult to surmise my opinion on this, but I'll try/. I am not a member of the British army, the ghosts are not members of the US army, the stray dogs are not members of the soviet army and lads running around with SS uniforms are not 1940s Nazis. This point really needs to be stressed I feel as it is often lost in these arguments. For some people they will only ever see the guns and the uniforms and forever associate us with war and death. Before coming down hard on SS themed teams we really need to look closely at how we ourselves are viewed. When I put on my British uniform I do not feel I am embodying their values or ideas and glorifying the actions of the British military, I'm merely placing a game.


Lemming, its obvious people have no cop on. As such relying on it would be a mistake from the get go.

Masada

ive voted "

Discussion of any aspect of WW2 German military should be allowed

reason being that a large portion of the argument against wearing such uniforms is related to the offence that it would cause to germans/jews others effected etc,

every war has victims and i havent heard ONE person moaning about the british uniforms worn by some even though we as a nation "directly" suffered at the hands of the english, why is that acceptable and the german ones arnt? ive no objection to the british uniform being used in just the same way i dont object to the german one., we dont have a hissey fit about it so who cares about what some uptight godsh*te who's looking for an arguement would think about it, by now WW2 should be in the distance and there is very few people left who are directly affected by the actions of germany then, by that i mean most people of that time are either dead, dying or were too young to remember anyway. it was only 30 years since we have british atrosities in ireland but times have moved on and the country is at peace for once and is a better place,. The controversary that have gone on here in the last few days is from our side, exactly the same as what we condemn from reporters who give airosft a bad light, its over reaction,. lets hope this whole issue is put to rest altogether this time round though.,
Sorry if this has offended some but its just my 2c.,;)

Gatling

at the end of the day it was a war and there was 3 sides who wiped out millions of ppl,there was some front line units that done some nasty things ,but you cant have ww2 teams and say oh you cant be certain units ,its peoples choice as who they want to base there gear on ,the best looking ww2 uniforms were all german ,

i voted for full discussion,

ambro25

Voted No.

For 2 reasons:

(i) Firstly, for personal reasons (dating back some decades, obviously enough).

(ii) Secondly, and I'll be branded as suffering a bad case of blinders by most for this, directly in relation to (i) above because the only context in which I would (personally) tolerate it is within a reenactment context which (having attended Salute etc.) I consider a pursuit distinct from airsoft. Not mutually exclusive pursuits, note - but distinct.

Hivemind187

In my opinion there is no justifiable reason to portray yourself as a member of a specific unit unless you are attempting to enjoy their reputation vicariously.

johnboyire

i am all in favour of reinactment but the ss uniform is beyond the limit it would be considered a hate symbol, and should not be compared to other armies of today despite however bad they are, walk with a city in germany in an ss uniform and then in an american one for example and you will see the difference,

the whole ss thing is really in bad taste i personally love reading about the german military in world war 2 and about the weapons and tactics and their is plenty of other units to choose from aside from the ss i mean whats next getting younger airsofters to reinact the hitler youth!!

its time some people stop being selfish be more considerate and have some pride in themselves before they are the next headline in the local rag,

iceage

Is it really a question of insignia rather than uniform? Its not so much the rather smart black uniform, its the swastika's and lightning bolts and deathheads that are gonna piss someone off, jewish or not..I see your point vtec, not so much the british DPM but if I turned up with a cherry beret and para wings, I could fully understand you being put out of sorts!

I mean, in these times, I'll throw this out there, Blackwater loadouts, 5:11's baseball caps, with bearclaw logo? would this cause offence?

Boston

Although I did vote for completely open discussion people need to pull their heads out of their arse and cut out this "I don't care so why should you" crap. soldiers do allot of horrible things and some people will always associate anything military in nature with negativity, nothing we can do about that. I'm not even going to try and say those people are wrong. If you can't accept that much about others views of the world, then you don't have even a tenth of the common sense lemming made reference to.

iceage

Gatling wrote: »

at the end of the day it was a war and there was 3 sides who wiped out millions of ppl,there was some front line units that done some nasty things ,but you cant have ww2 teams and say oh you cant be certain units ,its peoples choice as who they want to base there gear on ,the best looking ww2 uniforms were all german ,

i voted for full discussion,

3 sides? british, americans, germans, russians, japenese..:)

Shiva

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

kdouglas

very well said Shiva

Hivemind187

+1 Shiva

Mweelrea

Shiva wrote: »

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

well said shiva!
while german uniform and the like are great for milsims we have to look at the wider picture the media is against airsoft at the moment and pictures of guys in SS uniform running around with airsoft guns will certinly not help the situation. Come on its not an image we want to be given to our sport

iceage

+2 shiva..nicely put. tryed, but couldn't have put it better myself!:cool:

Spetzcong

I voted for the middle option, it was either that or a full on no. In the end I decided that there are some circumstances in which I think it would be acceptable to wear or discuss the wearing of WW2 German uniforms. In the context of a milsim game/historical reenactment etc I think it would be ok, in general I think it's dodgy. As has been said above it's all about public perception and the Nazis did some of the most evil things the modern world has seen so being perceived as even being indifferent to them will not go down well with the public.

I would also like to point out to people who say that WW2 was years ago hence nazi symbolism etc should be fine now, that neo-fascism and far right groups are a very real problem all across Europe, including in Ireland, and that these groups in many cases have adopted WW2 era Nazi symbols and emblems to represent themselves.

All we would need is for one journalist to get wind of an SS airsoft team and Joe Public is going to be calling for an outright ban on the basis of far-right paramilitary groups using the sport for training.

Not to mention the fact that if we as airsofters decide that a Nazi themed team is ok, we are leaving ourselves open for a far-right group to use us for training and hide behind the cover of just being a 'nazi themed airsoft team'. It sounds a little implausible but stranger things have happened.

Boston

I'd like to remind everyone that the question is "should discussion be allowed", not "should someone people allowed play on a site in an ss uniform". Are people seriously making an argument here that by not allowing discussions it will follow that people won't set these teams up and therefore the teams won't be able to reflect badly?

bullets

I for one Love the Look of the German WWII uniforms and the insignia!!!
Several times I have been at antique fares and wanted to buy an Iron Cross
or SS belt buckle simply because I liked what they looked like and nothing
else. I also love the look of other Military stuff like Guns/Bullets/Shells/landmines/
missles/tanks etc etc and would buy them if I had the cash.

Now lets be clear. I love the "Look" of the uniform not any stigma that
the imagery of the uniform may be linked to.

Now I whole heartedly cant stand what the Nazi's did and stood for and
I could go on and on and on and on about moral's and whats good and whats
bad etc etc etc. It does not make a blind bit of difference if the people
that wore the uniform back in the day were evil or saints to me. I still
like the "look" or ascetics of the uniform and nothing is going to change that.

If I wish to wear any type of uniform regardless of country or origin
for re-enactment and or roleplay than thats my choice and it would not
be to glorify anything.

If ya take a look at airsoft international a month or two ago you can
see people dressed up as taliban re-enacting tora-bora and nobody
seemed to take issue with that at all. Yet the mere mention of German uniforms get threads locked. You see people running around during skirmishes
dressed in nearly every other type of uniform from around the world emulating as best they can the army/unit of their choice. If you look at the gallerys
on the Irish Webpages you will seem American Flags donned on peoples
uniforms/camo and I have yet to see anyone take issue with that.
People seem to accept every other nationality available regardless of what their country's army's may have done in the present or the past with the exception being certain German uniforms.

Airsoft is is partially about suspension of dis-belief a type of roleplay
People have no problems emulating bad or good guys from Films or computer
games yet when it comes to doing the same from real world history somehow
all of a sudden a problem arises and people all of a sudden start getting over
the top politically correct and self righteous. That I don't understand.

One last point before I sign out for the night.
If your re-enacting a scenario in airsoft ether a mil-sim of a real world event
or a fictional or made up event or scenario your more that likely going
to have the goodies vs the baddies.

If doing a real world mil sim you cant just outright ban the bad guys or
ban any teams that want to "look" like the bad-guys whatever look or
uniform that the so called bad guys may wear.


~B

Spetzcong

Well if we don't allow discussion of it, or at least restrict discussion of it then at least if some journo doing some research (it might happen )for the next big 'Ban Airsoft Now' article won't find out about people dressing up as nazis on here.

Boston

So they won't find negative comments and are more likely to find dedicated websites promoting such activity?

Spetzcong

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Boston

Spetzcong wrote: »

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

In fairness thats what we have moderators for. To keep that stuff to a minimum. I can see why a site would ban such teams, as to allow them would be, in most circumstances, seen as an endorsement. However a discussion is far difference since both negative and positive aspects may be put forward.I just don't feel that turning issues like this into a taboo is good for anyone.

iceage

Guys..guys.. with all the discussion that is going on about this subject, be it right or wrong..which ever side you place yourself on it still does not get away from the fact that the word Nazi, SS, etc is in the same sentence and discussion as Airsoft!! On this one guys, you have to agree, if you want this sport to get on, I would recommend you drop it, like a hot stone!!

Airsoft as a sport in its infancy in this country cannot hope to deal with the flak that will arise from an "association" with anything to do with that subject.

As I said earlier, a smart lookin uniform..you cant help but find it appealing for its cut! The germans have impeccable taste!! but it ain't gonna help us get this thing rolling if some media people(tame version) get a hold of it...is it?

Drop it...noff said...

0ubliette

discussion of WW2 weapons = fine.
Discussion of the ethics of certain frontline SS groups = take it to the history forum.
Dressing up in full ww2 regalia = join a recretionists society. Theres on in ireland called battle group south. look them up.

But seriously, who would think that dressing up in an SS uniform WOULDNT offend people? Id gladly dress up as a wehrmacht soldier if i could get my hands on an STG44, but for gods sake, the SS? That uniform is and always will be associated with the holocaust and the very wort of the ww2 atrocities.

IRISH RAIL

Spetzcong wrote: »

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

If I wear a long leather jacket will that pass as the gestapo ??
because theres always someone who will think that
spetzcong is right youre dammed either way

Boston

The please think of the image argument is really getting old. Bottom line is this, if some guy goes out and buys an airsoft gun, registers www.ssnaziswithairsoftguns.com and prances around a field, I would like to be able to say "hey, that guy is a pratt" on this forum rather then hoping that all those bright sparks out there will realise, upon themselves, that we're not all like that. However boards, being boards is not about one sided discussion.

iceage

GUYS, i was at a re-inactment the other week in Carrick On Suir at the Castle.

Great show..german infantry/british infantry(ww1) loved it!and the crowds loved it too! but it was a SHOW for the public..nothing to do with Airsoft as a sport, and thats the way it HAS remain untill we become established,

iceage

Boston wrote: »

The please think of the image argument is really getting old. Bottom line is this, if some guy goes out and buys an airsoft gun, registers www.ssnaziswithairsoftguns.com and prances around a field, I would like to be able to say "hey, that guy is a pratt" on this forum rather then hoping that all those bright sparks out there will realise, upon themselves, that we're not all like that. However boards, being boards is not about one sided discussion.

Its not a case of getting old Boston. Its the way it is..you want to bury Air soft in Ireland before it even gets a chance to get really off the ground..if so you get on the wagon.. if not..cop the **** on!!

OK..did I really tell a Moderator to cop the f**k on? I did didn't i!!

Rew

I voted no. Theatrical presentations, re-enacting and airsoft are all differant things. I don't belive people should wear real ranks and insignia etc. while playing airsoft. It add's nothing to the game IMHO. If anything it throws petrol on the walter mitty fire thats always smoulderng away. Making up your own I don't have an issue with. If you want to be just like a real soldier then be a real soldier and everything that goes with it and join an army.

I think airsofters already put far too much weight behind having an amazing loadout and sexy cammo. In reality you can play just as well or better then anyone else in tshirt and jeans. The fun of playing, thats the bit that people should be concentrating on.

I generally don't care too much for political correctness but dressing up like the SS is so far beyound a smart well thought out idea that I cann't fathom the resoning behind it. Do they want to play a senario with an american team based on the time they executed allied POW's, wow that would be fun....

Black Edelweiss

There are SS airsoft groups all over the world, in places like england and america, countries who actually fought and died at the hands of the SS, why can they get over it and we cannot. Check out this link for a proper ww2 airsoft team. http://www.ww2airsoft.org.uk/ . Maybe the reason airsoft is getting a bad name is becuase it lacks any direction or purpose. Reenactment groups are accepted becuase they try to accuratly portray historical events, however distasteful they may be. The public probably see airsoft as just a load of guys running around with real looking guns pretending to be soilders. Why not give the sport some structure, make it have a purpose, educate and entertain. As bullets said, the guys were recreating the talliban, could there be any more controversial group in the world today, why not have an IRA vs the Parachute regiment or the sas, it would be a bit of craic. Let the papers say what they want, in the late 80's, dance music was an underground scene in england until the papers got hold of it, gave it some really bad press and it turned into the biggest musical movement since rock n roll.
I work in a hospital where there are several Iraqi and Iranian doctors, if I brought them to an event would they be offended by the american uniforms, what would you do if they complained? Would they be allowed to attend wearing their own clothes, they might look like iraqi insurgents or sucicide bombers.
Maybe what airsoft needs to do is to split into two groups, the historical reenactment side where any uniform is welcomed and nobody will be offended, and they have to deal with their own press, be it bad or good, and the non political/historical side who just wear military uniforms of their choice, weapons of their choice, no flags, banners, insignia, let individual units make their own insignia to define who they want to be. This group will in no way be held accountable for the actions or reputation of the historical teams and vice versa. teams can attend both meetings, just leave any flags or insignia at home for the non historical guys.
The sport is still in its infancy but as you can see opinion is divided, almost 50/50 at this stage, it will be a long road, but as they say "War is Hell".
As for discuss / not discuss, modern society is built upon the right of free speach, the right to discuss, there is a line not to cross, you cannot incite racial hatred but we have to be able to discuss.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

Lemming

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

I'm going to jump in here guys with something that is not relevant to the discussion but HIGHLY relevant to boards.ie in general.

You do not, never have had, or ever will have, freedom of speech on boards.ie so please don't start with cries of 'oppression', etc. You post here at the discretion of the site administrators and the guidelines as set down for each forum by the admins and/or moderators.

Be under no illusions regarding that little point.

TelePaul

Not a regular contributor to the paintball forum, but it doesn't appear that the issue in question is particularly relevant to paintball. As someone with an avid interest in WW2, I'm quite interested in seeing how this one pans out!

I voted that all discussion of German based militarism be allowed. Unless I'm missing something - as I said, I havn't been privy to the former threads surrounding this issue - censorship of a particular facet of the worlds most important war is a great injustice to a plethora of people.

I once read that the German version of the popular computer game Medal of Honour was edited to remove Swastikas, an act which baffles me. Let's not kid ourselves, distancing ourselves from something after the fact doesn't change the reality that it happened in the first place; perhaps this is the reason that denial of the Holocaust's existence is a crime in many western states.

But where do you draw the line when it comes to censorship? The bombing of Dresden may be considered by some as no less despicable than select SS attrocities. Guys this is something of a minefield, it's probably best to try keep everything in perspective; it's a sport, border-line historical re-enactment, not a political endeavour.

iceage

sport, yes.. uniforms, yess.. politics/bull****/agenda/history/(no)...sport....yes.

Airsoft....yes..
(paintball without the paint/pain! and better looking markers!!):D

yes!!!!!

iceage

Again let me reiterate, I personally have no problem with military re-inactment/displays and so on. With an ex-military background, I applaud it, the sport of Airsoft has given me a new lease of interest in the art of "carrying arms" although they be harmless and safe examples of the real steel.

I'm curious as to this interest in the subject of wwII. I see your new to the forums, this being your first post an all, so welcome!! At the moment Airsoft sport here is in its infancy, so it needs time to "settle in" you might say, like paintball, and other newish sports it takes time for it to get a base, if you know what I mean. so stick around, you might even get to like it!!

AirsoftEire.com

Shiva wrote: »

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

I'll jump on the retailer bandwagon here and agree with Shiva. No matter how level headed you are, or intent on displaying the finest historically accurate detail, 99% of people would not want to wear an SS uniform, or be in any way associated with it. Displaying a collection in glass cases is one thing to complete a collection, but putting on the gear and running round a field just doesn't look right.

People have asked the question "well where do you draw the line then?". Well the obvious answer is with Nazi uniforms.
You could argue until you're blue in the face that the Americans are doing horrorific things in Iraq right now and have all the details to back it up, but that the fact is that the majority of people don't believe that. You can wear American gear up to your eyeballs and no-one will look twice.

It's down to common public perception, you can't mention the word "Nazi" without people conjuring up horrible events in their minds, and that should be the mindset of airsoft players when they put on their airsoft gear.

Steve

o1s1n

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

There are SS airsoft groups all over the world, in places like england and america, countries who actually fought and died at the hands of the SS, why can they get over it and we cannot. Check out this link for a proper ww2 airsoft team. http://www.ww2airsoft.org.uk/ . Maybe the reason airsoft is getting a bad name is becuase it lacks any direction or purpose. Reenactment groups are accepted becuase they try to accuratly portray historical events, however distasteful they may be. The public probably see airsoft as just a load of guys running around with real looking guns pretending to be soilders. Why not give the sport some structure, make it have a purpose, educate and entertain. As bullets said, the guys were recreating the talliban, could there be any more controversial group in the world today, why not have an IRA vs the Parachute regiment or the sas, it would be a bit of craic. Let the papers say what they want, in the late 80's, dance music was an underground scene in england until the papers got hold of it, gave it some really bad press and it turned into the biggest musical movement since rock n roll.
I work in a hospital where there are several Iraqi and Iranian doctors, if I brought them to an event would they be offended by the american uniforms, what would you do if they complained? Would they be allowed to attend wearing their own clothes, they might look like iraqi insurgents or sucicide bombers.
Maybe what airsoft needs to do is to split into two groups, the historical reenactment side where any uniform is welcomed and nobody will be offended, and they have to deal with their own press, be it bad or good, and the non political/historical side who just wear military uniforms of their choice, weapons of their choice, no flags, banners, insignia, let individual units make their own insignia to define who they want to be. This group will in no way be held accountable for the actions or reputation of the historical teams and vice versa. teams can attend both meetings, just leave any flags or insignia at home for the non historical guys.
The sport is still in its infancy but as you can see opinion is divided, almost 50/50 at this stage, it will be a long road, but as they say "War is Hell".
As for discuss / not discuss, modern society is built upon the right of free speach, the right to discuss, there is a line not to cross, you cannot incite racial hatred but we have to be able to discuss.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH - even on forums, otherwise the moderators will have nothing to do.

Black Edelweiss wrote: »

Thats what you want iceage, and good luck to you with it, enjoy it.
But what about the guys who want to combine it with a bit of history. To each their own.

Creating another account to get around a ban? Not on.

o1s1n

nonex wrote: »

so if you realy think about it we would have to bame the Chinese for gun,

Always throwing a spanner into the works

Anyway guys, better get this thread back to its original intention. It was opened purely for the poll and for people to give reasons why they voted. Not to have a discussion.

The poll is to be up running for a week. Don't want to risk it descending into chaos.

Arcto

an extremely touchy subject allright. Im in favour of allowing ALL millitary uniforms.....you cannot say its ok to have Russian uniforms and not german. Both killed **** loads of "innocent" civis, dignitars and commited war crimes.

However i can see why people would be upset by seeing an SS uniformed group runnig around HRTA. I wouldnt wear one, however i do own one, becuase in my opinion the SS and regular german army were the best dressed army of the time. They are stylish uniforms. FACT. The ideoligy behind them is quiet questionable though.

I realise this post contradicts itself so let me finish by saying:

a) I would not look down upon someone wearing an SS uniform in airsfot.
b) I personally wouldnt do it.

If you can understand what im getting at, good for you. If you cannot and think im a Nazi sympothiser then * * * * * * * * you sir.

And i cannot remember who brought up the British DPM thing but yes, your correct.....we all get upset by german uniforms yet we have, as an irish nation, suffered far worse from our next door neighbours.

Why do we forgive them?

Ending my post like that sounds like i hate the english. Incorect, i have english relatives and love travelling to london for gigs. Great place. Uh god im getting to far into this....when i have a scroll bar at the side of my post i know its time to call it quits.....PM me for further discussion on this if anyone really does....which i doubt.

Arcto bailing out.......(opens chute)

o1s1n

Spam and discussion removed. Time to get strict with this thread. It needs to remain clean.

Remember folks, vote and explain your reason. Leave it at that. Anything else will be deleted.

Boston

iceage wrote: »

Its not a case of getting old Boston. Its the way it is..you want to bury Air soft in Ireland before it even gets a chance to get really off the ground..if so you get on the wagon.. if not..cop the **** on!!

OK..did I really tell a Moderator to cop the f**k on? I did didn't i!!

Its an excuse. Try putting some arguments behind it. Discussion of illegal activities on this forum is banned because they are illegal, discussion of real steal is not allowed (in the main anyway) because its not relevant, discussion of SS teams should not be allowed because what? We hope to pretend they don't exist? If a discussion of this topic will kill airsoft in Ireland, then its in pretty terrible state. Banning a topic from discussion is a drastic step, and something you really have to justify. You can't just use "for the greater good" as a catch all answer.

Hivemind187

Vote for the second option for two reasons;

1) This is Boards.ie - like it or not freedom of speech does not exist here. Think of it asa having a chat in someone elses kitchen, if they don't like what you are saying they ask you to stop (sometimes) and then ask you to leave (forcibly). Get used to the concept - I had to

2) The SS were a specific unit from a specific period of history. There is no other reason outside of the context of a historical re-enactment skirmish (specifically referring to Airsoft here) to wear the uniform, deaths head, insignia, eagle daggers, unit numbers, flags, swastika or any of the other paraphenalia unless you are looking to portray yourselves as having some of the same qualities as that specific unit. History belong at such events, uniforms have a place. Insignia do not. If you dont believe me, try it in Germany out of context and see how long it takes them to throw you in prison.

At the end of the day people, this argument is about a specific point of history and a specific group of people. It is not about all uniforms of all nations. British DPM was introduced (the Soldier 95 variety anyway) during the ceasefire after the Good Friday Agreement, it should hold no specific pain for anyone (infact Irish Camouflage is based on it) - but wearing the uniform of the Black & Tans might get you into trouble, wearing their insignia or indentifying marks certainly will.

The SS emblems and other Nazi idols are still in use today by neo-fascists, anti-semites, white-powr movements and underground nazi groups. These emblems and in some cases uniforms, are used to intimidate, terrorise and harass innocent people. This is current, this is now.

I will repeat this for emphasis; if you wear a specific units emblems, you are attempting to use their notoriety or achievments vicariously.

Ample Free ...?

In a perfect world I'd vote for open discussion, (with a pinch of common sense of course, I don't think anyone here is really out to offend anyone else) but the more I think about it , in the intrest of airsoft, having the SS insignia or other such things associated with the holocaust is a bit too risky. People are quick to judge and something like this could just fuel anxieties about airsoft.
You don't have to like it, just live with it:rolleyes:

Standard WW2 uniforms - Yes
SS uniforms - No

Stercus Accidit

I voted for yes to german infantry, no to SS.

I believe that the ss uniform holds a huge amount of symbolic importance, and is still used today by neo nazis and hate groups.

The SS may be dead but the uniform is still used as a symbol by nazi groups in germany, the US and russia and wherever you may find groups like these.

The war may be over but the uniform is still used, and represents only hate now, not even a military group.

ED E

Second option by far.

I dont accept that if we alow say russian insignia ect(example given above) that we have to allow SS symbols ect. Yes, the Nazis we're not the only ones but nobody else slaughtered humans in such a nechanical way and that turned out to be the main activity performed by the SS. I dont see why it isn't possible to just stick with the Whermacht (sp?). There is really no need to replicate the SS.


Lethal.

Mauclerc

Wehrmacht.

Same as many other, I'm ok for "regular" german uniforms, but SS uniforms carry too many history, and using it in reenactment or skirmishes won't help the public image of the sport.

Fiach Dubh

I voted for allowed discussion because I have an intense dislike of censorship. That being said I'd never press an issue as I know very well that web forums are private property and subject to the owners rules.

Discussion of WWII armies, equipment, etc. In my opinion is not a problem in the context of historical research or even reenacting, the concern seems to be in the prospect that someone may be pushing a secret agenda in the guise of fun. This is, of course, a problem. Most Airsoft groups are going to be themed around a specific countries army and some people will interpret your group as being some kind of defacto propaganda team. As Boston already quite correctly pointed out the Ghosts are not U.S. soldiers and my team are not Russian army, none of the members of my team, including myself are communists. This shouldn't have to said as for one there is no law against being a communist in Europe but I do have to clear this up as I've gotten the impression lately that some people think we are communists. Note I said a few people, 95% of the players I meet have a level head on their shoulders

The problem is not, never has been and never will be, the group you are recreating in a controlled environment. The problem is it spilling outside that environment. Take the Salute military weekend as an example, the WWII reenactment featured German soldiers with full emblems, some SS. I didn't see anybody that seemed to have a problem with this as the context is understood.

In my opinion, wearing WWII German uniforms and equipment in an Airsoft team is fine. Wearing a German WWII uniform and going out to the shops... Eh no. It's all context, discussion should be allowed otherwise you should really ban discussion of all real world armies, regardless of origin.

Gizmodeon

In my opinion, wearing WWII German uniforms and equipment in an Airsoft team is fine. Wearing a German WWII uniform and going out to the shops... Eh no. It's all context, discussion should be allowed otherwise you should really ban discussion of all real world armies, regardless of origin.

Here here!
I voted for it to be allowed
Censorship in Airsoft? Isn't the idea of war games in the first place insulting?
any uniform is gonna be offensive to one group or another, even the American ACU!
next you'll be banning the ghosts for Iraq :P

If you're scared of the German army uniform, you should see how many German re-enactors are at the war and peace show