The Slapping Debate.

senordingdong · 04-12-2007 01:14PM

undecided wrote: »

I know you're not the only on who belives in this practise but would love to know why? ie. why not other punishment eg. grounding, no pocket money etc

Sorry for the alte reply but long story short, it has, in my experience, been the method that yields the best results.

And just to clear it up, we're not talking about some brute staggering home drunk and 'taking out' their anger on a child.
It is a simple idea of child does something wrong, child recieves a slap. Child does something wrong again, child recieves slap. Now, provided everything else in the parenting department is being done properly, the child will sooner or later figure out the correlation between certain activities and a slap and will not do them again.

stovelid · 04-12-2007 01:31PM

Mairt wrote: »

How the fvck do you define a smack..

Put it this way, you'd know if I smacked you, so a child would too.

Define that.

You have such a reasonable and gentle way of expressing your dislike of physical chastisement?

luckat · 04-12-2007 04:08PM

embee wrote: »

Children are not animals, and you can't really apply the same criteria to "training" both.

Behavioural scientists would disagree. All animals, including humans, respond to reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement - slapping, shouting, threatening and so on - works less well than correctly applied positive reinforcement.

SubjectSean · 04-12-2007 04:33PM

Clytus wrote: »

But I was wondering what other peoples opinions on smacking were?

I was away with friends and two Swazi boys let the cows they were 'minding' go on a mans land and eat some of his corn. He went to their grandmother to complain but she would not beat the boys. So he took them himself to his own homestead and tied them to a post and bullwhipped them until they fell down. Later when they had stood up he came and bullwhipped them again until they fell down. They were 8 and 11, they did not go to hospital for any stitches but they should have done, they were cut up pretty bad.

I think that this is a very harsh way to treat children and I do not support it. In general Swazi's are much harsher with their children than we are here but they are normally not as harsh as this man was. He was too harsh. All the same Swazi children are very well behaved and are very polite and very respectful. If you met them you would wonder where did the Swazis get children such as these. Here when the children stand in my way on the pavement they do not even think of moving aside. When I was a child we would move aside. We were treated a little harshly perhaps but there is no doubt at all that it put some manners on us. I see how all the social mammals are disciplining their children. Eish, it looks a little harsh, but really it is for the best.

Mr. Presentable · 04-12-2007 07:37PM

undecided wrote: »

Excuse me but there are alot of decent girls in Tallaght. Don't be steoertypical you are only showing off your ignorance!

How's that humourectomy working out for you?

Nevyn · 04-12-2007 07:48PM

nipplenuts go read the charter and behave or it will be to the bold corner for you.

Deliverance · 04-12-2007 10:16PM

luckat wrote: »

Behavioural scientists would disagree. All animals, including humans, respond to reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement - slapping, shouting, threatening and so on - works less well than correctly applied positive reinforcement.

Translation: Slapping is wrong. There are better alternatives. I prefer Piagets theories when it comes to children. The behaviourist views in the positive sense work with older people. Some of the behaviourists experiments are akin to more sinister abusive motives.

ex_infantry man · 04-12-2007 10:56PM

violence breeds violence as they say monkey see monkey do!!!!!

luckat · 04-12-2007 11:13PM

Deliverance wrote: »

Some of the behaviourists experiments are akin to more sinister abusive motives.

Which ones would those be?

And actually, no, behavioural methods work with children of all ages just as well as with older people; they're not based on a theory, but empirically based.

Deliverance · 04-12-2007 11:20PM

Violence does not breed violence, that is a very simplistic view. People are not monkeys. Smacking you in the face will not make you come up with a less cliched response.

Ps there is a hint of irony and humour in what I am saying, so don't take it to heart.

Deliverance · 04-12-2007 11:26PM

luckat wrote: »

Which ones would those be?

And actually, no, behavioural methods work with children of all ages just as well as with older people; they're not based on a theory, but empirically based.

Little Albert? Teaching a child how to fear? Fear as a tool has been used in recent history and has worked rather well to a point...

faceman · 05-12-2007 01:54PM

for smacking to have any effect, surely pain must register with the child so that they know if they dont want another smack, they shouldnt do whatever they did wrong again. but if the smack doesnt cause harm, how does the child learn that what they did is wrong?

To the pro-physical discipline posters, at what point in your opinion do you feel smacking is necessary or warranted, or at what stage in the disciplinary cycle is a smack administered? And how much pain is necessary to make the point?

girlwitcurls · 05-12-2007 04:11PM

ex_infantry man wrote: »

violence breeds violence as they say monkey see monkey do!!!!!

so if you have an out of control child what would you do!

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-12-2007 04:15PM

girlwitcurls wrote: »

so if you have an out of control child what would you do!

You see, people in this country amaze me with that one.

I'd turn the tables and say "if you have an out of control dog, do you kick him?" ... No, because its cruel and because there are professionals there to help you.

The same is true with children.

A child learn's nothing positive or constructive through phyical violence.

girlwitcurls · 05-12-2007 04:19PM

i asked a genuine question wats the alternative>? and dont make out we are beating kids up a small slap on the bum or hand is disipline.

ex_infantry man · 05-12-2007 04:32PM

Mairt wrote: »

You see, people in this country amaze me with that one.

I'd turn the tables and say "if you have an out of control dog, do you kick him?" ... No, because its cruel and because there are professionals there to help you.

The same is true with children.

A child learn's nothing positive or constructive through phyical violence.

well mairt there is a huge difference between smacking the arse full whack off a poor little child and a slap on the wrist for being bold i agree with the slap on the wrist but not the smacking and a few mins quiet time in them

Zulu · 05-12-2007 04:34PM

If you smack a child, at best, you are teaching him or her one fundamental point: that violence is acceptable.

Is this a lesson you want to teach your child?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-12-2007 04:35PM

girlwitcurls wrote: »

i asked a genuine question wats the alternative>? and dont make out we are beating kids up a small slap on the bum or hand is disipline.

Ok here's my case. Two examples.

My case first.

As a child I had a terrible temper, I was also terrible in school. I was routinely 'slapped', but sometimes it went further than that. In one case I ended up in the old Richmond hospital (Dublin) after a beating.

As soon as I could I left home, when I turned 18 I joined the army and have had a pretty successful career to date (22yrs later).

My daughter's case..

Pretty similiar to me with a terrible temper and bad school work. Alot of what she was going through I could indentify with, I knew and could feel the fire in her. I used to hug her during her rages, and I felt she knew that I understood.

(We never slapped her, not once, or my son).

Myself and my wife went to the school and asked what kind of help was out there for us. Thankfully we were pointed in the right direction ..

(I'm cutting out alot of the information from this period to keep this short)

After assessment we were told my daughter was probably dyslexic and we were preferred to the National Dyslexic Assoc. for private assessment (best money I've ever spent).

My daughter was dyslexic, and pretty bad too. The people there explained how it was often genetic (on the fathers side) and suggested I was assessed too. GUess what, I was found to be dyslexic too!.

(Sorry about the lenght of this).

As I've been successful in my career I could have taken the view that a slapping never hurt me (except that once) and given my daughter a few slaps and be happy to leave it at that. Except would it have stayed at that?.. No, because she'd have carried it through to her children.

Now my daughter (she's 12) is a completely different child. She's calm, she's articulate, she's doing wonderfully in school (I could go on).

All that we've achieved with my daughter, and my understanding of my dylexia would have been lost had I resorted to violence.

Please excuse the long post, but I tried editing alot out.

congo_90 · 05-12-2007 04:39PM

Clytus wrote: »

Now...Iv always been of the opinion that a little slap never did me any harm,so theres not too much wrong with it....but this woman seemed intent on causing "pain" to her child...why else would she have slapped more than once.TBH I felt like I should have said something to that woman,but of course the "Mind your own business" attitude kicked in.

But I was wondering what other peoples opinions on smacking were?

It has been showen before that 2 or 3light slaps is needed. some kind of mental training. One to aknowledge something is wrong. one for punishment and the last makes a slight bit of pain which the child then remembers. So the next time the child goes to do it, It may remember the pain and tears.

I see nothing wrong with it. As long as the parent isn't doing a mohammed Ali on the kid

Rev Hellfire · 05-12-2007 04:41PM

If you smack a child, at best, you are teaching him or her one fundamental point: That there can be an instant consequence of their actions.

congo_90 · 05-12-2007 04:44PM

imo, I always believed it made them a better person. When younger, my parents smacked me if i done something wrong. I've turned out ok

On the other hand i have friends who weren't smacked and were spoiled instead. Always got away with things and now they don't respect their parents.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-12-2007 04:46PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If you smack a child, at best, you are teaching him or her one fundamental point: That there can be an instant consequence of their actions.

You see, I think your just trying to wind people up in this thread now.

girlwitcurls · 05-12-2007 04:48PM

to mairt thanks for the reply i readily agree with you, when a child has a problem at school they shouldnt be punished for it but im talking about kids pinching,biting, hitting, bullying, being cheeky , spitting along those lines!i think a slap on the hand wouldnt do any harm

ceidefields · 05-12-2007 04:55PM

Back to the original scenario, what parent amongst us couldn't see that your mood might be a little frayed if you spent the morning at the Square with your three year old and just wanted to sit down to have a bite to eat?

I don't believe in smacking kids simply because it doesn't work. It just shows them that striking out is an OK thing to do. The 2-5 year old phase is a really tough one because they're really not able to grasp the concept of good behaviour = reward unless it's very immediate.

Anything older than that, I think taking away TV or Nintendo privileges etc works really well, at least it does in our house. No Wii for a week is far more painful than a quick slap on the hand!

mox54 · 05-12-2007 04:56PM

i smack mine, did it yesterday and it hurt them and it's not ideal and i'm not proud of it and wished I didn't have to do it but I can't sit them down and ask them to be well behaved, tried that and it didn't work, they need a smack now and then to remind them to keep in line, it works and they have no difficulty with it judging by the hugs etc I get every day so it's a part of growing up, also they know not to ever get in real big trouble because I'll come down on them like a ton of the preverbial!!!!:mad:

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-12-2007 04:58PM

girlwitcurls wrote: »

to mairt thanks for the reply i readily agree with you, when a child has a problem at school they shouldnt be punished for it but im talking about kids pincing,biting, hitting, bullying, being cheeky , spitting along those lines!i think a slap on the hand wouldnt do any harm

But do you not aggree that it might be better to see if the child is having problems, which are causing the child to do these things?.

Yes, the child might settle for a few minutes. The person the child loves most in the world has just hurt it, both emotionally and physically, of course he/she is going to withdraw and lick they're wounds. But in the long term slapping/smacking that same child will achieve nothing.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-12-2007 04:59PM

mox54 wrote: »

i smack mine, did it yesterday and it hurt them and it's not ideal and i'm not proud of it and wished I didn't have to do it but I can't sit them down and ask them to be well behaved, tried that and it didn't work, they need a smack now and then to remind them to keep in line, it works and they have no difficulty with it judging by the hugs etc I get every day so it's a part of growing up, also they know not to ever get in real big trouble because I'll come down on them like a ton of the preverbial!!!!:mad:

Well done, bravo. Best reply yet.

:rolleyes:

Zulu · 05-12-2007 05:24PM

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If you smack a child, at best, you are teaching him or her one fundamental point: That there can be an instant consequence of their actions.

...violence. :rolleyes: Naturally, I understand you are trying to be smart here, but I fail to see how you believe this strenghtens your point.

Deliverance · 05-12-2007 10:00PM

Mairt wrote: »

Ok here's my case. Two examples.

My case first.

As a child I had a terrible temper, I was also terrible in school. I was routinely 'slapped', but sometimes it went further than that. In one case I ended up in the old Richmond hospital (Dublin) after a beating.

As soon as I could I left home, when I turned 18 I joined the army and have had a pretty successful career to date (22yrs later).

My daughter's case..

Pretty similiar to me with a terrible temper and bad school work. Alot of what she was going through I could indentify with, I knew and could feel the fire in her. I used to hug her during her rages, and I felt she knew that I understood.

(We never slapped her, not once, or my son).

Myself and my wife went to the school and asked what kind of help was out there for us. Thankfully we were pointed in the right direction ..

(I'm cutting out alot of the information from this period to keep this short)

After assessment we were told my daughter was probably dyslexic and we were preferred to the National Dyslexic Assoc. for private assessment (best money I've ever spent).

My daughter was dyslexic, and pretty bad too. The people there explained how it was often genetic (on the fathers side) and suggested I was assessed too. GUess what, I was found to be dyslexic too!.

(Sorry about the lenght of this).

As I've been successful in my career I could have taken the view that a slapping never hurt me (except that once) and given my daughter a few slaps and be happy to leave it at that. Except would it have stayed at that?.. No, because she'd have carried it through to her children.

Now my daughter (she's 12) is a completely different child. She's calm, she's articulate, she's doing wonderfully in school (I could go on).

All that we've achieved with my daughter, and my understanding of my dylexia would have been lost had I resorted to violence.

Please excuse the long post, but I tried editing alot out.

I think you said it all there really, excellent post and a very interesting read about a real view from a real experience. It takes real people to break the cycle. And it was heartwarming read. Well done there Mairt.

nesf · 05-12-2007 10:06PM

Mairt wrote: »

You see, people in this country amaze me with that one.

I'd turn the tables and say "if you have an out of control dog, do you kick him?" ... No, because its cruel and because there are professionals there to help you.

I'd have no trouble with you beating a dog away from something if it was necessary. I'd have trouble with you doing it for the sake of it but if you were separating two fighting dogs and lacked any better method etc. The thing is, you're unlikely to get badly scarred separating two fighting toddlers with your bare hands..

The Slapping Debate.

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