The Slapping Debate.

Paddyo

Hi

I was having a discussion with some freinds and slapping of children came up.
Some people mentioned that slapping children is illegal in Ireland. I was wondering if this is the case and if so can someone point me a link to where this is made clear.

I dont want this to be a discussion on the moral rights or wrongs of slapping. I am just looking for some factual information.

I have looked but cannot find anything which would support that it is in fact illegal.

Many thanks
Paddyo

jinxycat

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/our_policies/women/women_s_policy

As a first step towards ending the “acceptability” of violence, that the Government outlaws slapping of children. If children are slapped for being “bold” (often a concept they don’t fully understand), they may think that it is alright to slap others, for what they may subjectively see as bold.
just a quote from that page. i suppose it's the same for children.

Yavvy

are you interested in slapping children paddyo, I dont know the legal position but thats really not important, its wrong.

Paddyo

Alany wrote:

are you interested in slapping children paddyo,

What sort of a question is that?

As I said in my initial post - I am looking for factual information.

Paddyo

semisleeping

I was actually having a conversation about this with a friend at lunch today. I think slapping a child is a parents right and I do not think it should be illegal. However, I do realise that there is a fine line between a non-threatening slap for discipline reasons and abusive behaviour and for this reason bounderies have to be put in place....it's hard though. I know that as a child I was whalloped with a wooden spoon across the arm or bum if I was being bold. It has not affected me in any negative way and looking back I'm surprised I didn't get worse for some of the stuff I did!

loyatemu

it's not illegal, and would be practically unenforceable if it was

in general I don't agree with smacking kids but would make an exception if the child is doing something dangerous.

kasintahan

It isn't necessary if you have the intelligence to bring up a child correctly and the imagination to punish them constructivly when they are bold (and they will be!)

Nevyn

true mental torture and crippling emotional cruelty is far more effective.

RainyDay

loyatemu wrote:

it's not illegal, and would be practically unenforceable if it was

It is no more unenforceable than any other form of violence within families. They said the same thing about the ban on rape within marriage, but there have been successful prosecutions under that law.

Blinda

Padd Its definately illegal in the UK dont know about EIRE.

dahamsta

I don't think it's illegal here.

I was slapped a little when I was young and I don't think it did any harm, but there's no way I'd slap my own kids; because a) there's no need to, putting them outside the door or holding something back works just as well; and b) I think it would be too easy to separate (my) temper and (their) punishment.

adam

secret_squirrel

Blinda wrote:

Padd Its definately illegal in the UK .

Err - no its not

I find it rather amusing to note all the posters who go into judgement mode - rather than answer a simple question :rolleyes:

Simi

There was a thread there a while back where a guy got fined for slapping his kid in front of a garda, so i'm pretty sure its illegal. And besides what justifiable reason could you have to hit a child? Use your words...

dahamsta

secret_squirrel wrote:

I find it rather amusing to note all the posters who go into judgement mode - rather than answer a simple question :rolleyes:

Prolly the same people that recommend Firefox when someone asks how to clear their cookies in IE. Or MDaemon when someone asks for an MTA recommendation in the UNIX forum! :rolleyes:

secret_squirrel

Simi wrote:

There was a thread there a while back where a guy got fined for slapping his kid in front of a garda, so i'm pretty sure its illegal.

That doesnt necessary follow - that just means that the Guarda thought he was doing something illegal and the guy didnt chose to challenge the fine in court. Had a quick search for the thread and couldnt find it so it would be speculation on both our sides to refer to it any further (waits for thread to be found in very next post )

Edit : just found this poll on the indo site which suggests if smacking is illegal then it must have been made pretty recently. Unfortunately doesnt seem as if there is any date on the poll itself to be sure....

Blinda

secret_squirrel wrote:

Err - no its not

I find it rather amusing to note all the posters who go into judgement mode - rather than answer a simple question :rolleyes:

Slapping children IS ILLEGAL in the UK.-FACT

Bogger77

secret_squirrel wrote:

That doesnt necessary follow - that just means that the Guarda thought he was doing something illegal and the guy didnt chose to challenge the fine in court. Had a quick search for the thread and couldnt find it so it would be speculation on both our sides to refer to it any further (waits for thread to be found in very next post )

Edit : just found this poll on the indo site which suggests if smacking is illegal then it must have been made pretty recently. Unfortunately doesnt seem as if there is any date on the poll itself to be sure....

In the case mentioned, it wasn't a slap, it was nothing short of common GBH, he thrased the boy, ie Child Abuse in my books.

Re: Slapping, it's illegal to physically harm a child, a simple slap shouldn't be of more than enough force to do anything other than sting and leave a no more than a redness, no bruising.

dahamsta

Blinda wrote:

Slapping children IS ILLEGAL in the UK.-FACT

I actually thought that was the case, but secret_squirrel has provided linkage, you haven't. Have you a source for this assertion?

adam

secret_squirrel

I contend that corporal punishment within the family is still allowed in the UK. See here Note the date on the page. It appears to refer to the article although I do conceed it could just refer to the header page.

From Link - under heading of Controversies wrote:

Corporal punishment remains legal when used by parents.[in uk]

As Adam said - prove me wrong -with links.

I get the impression some posters on this forum are posting what they want to be true rather than actual facts.

Here's another link with a wealth of supporting evidence. As you can see the 2004 Childrens Act makes allowances for 'mild smacking'.

secret_squirrel

Found this. link to an Irish times article 20 Months Old

Last Paragraph.

Mr Paul Gilligan, chief executive of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children called for a total ban on corporal punishment in the home, as well as school. Because "reasonable chastisement" was still allowed in the home by parents and childminders, there continued to be "ambivalence" concerning the physical punishment of children among adults, he said.

This suggests smacking is allowed in Ireland* too. Again feel free to prove me wrong - with links.

*at least it was a year and a half ago

Rev Hellfire

Cute...

Behave rev, or there'll be grownup slaps :eek:

dahamsta

My sister just puts her kids outside the door. It seems like an odd punishment - you'd think they'd just play where they are, or even piss off - but they actually used to get upset about it, and behaved when they came back in. Bizarre.

adam

Eoghan-psych

semisleeping wrote:

I was actually having a conversation about this with a friend at lunch today. I think slapping a child is a parents right and I do not think it should be illegal. However, I do realise that there is a fine line between a non-threatening slap for discipline reasons and abusive behaviour and for this reason bounderies have to be put in place....it's hard though. I know that as a child I was whalloped with a wooden spoon across the arm or bum if I was being bold. It has not affected me in any negative way and looking back I'm surprised I didn't get worse for some of the stuff I did!

If you slap me, it is assault.

If I slap you, it is assault.

If your kid slaps me, it is assault.

If my kid slaps you, it is assault.

If I slap your kid, it is assault.

If you slap my kid, it is assault.

If my kid slaps your kid, it is assault.

If your kid slaps my kid, it is assault.

See a pattern?


As for not affecting you - read your message. You are trying to justify the use of assault as a means of discipline. I'd say that shows that you were affected quite a lot.

RicardoSmith

Have to say I don't have a problem with a slap. Except that from experience we've found it not very effective. However we've found that emotional blackmail is, but then you have to wonder if its not more damaging? No pain no gain I suppose. Time out zones, the bold step, room etc. (cupboard under the stairs LOL) the kennel. All variations on the same technique. Every child is different not all respond to the same methods.

Legally I don't know the position.

dahamsta

Do you need a hand down off that horse Eoghan-psych?

adam

unkel

I've not used and don't plan to use physical force. I'll prolly never will. Can't see anything wrong with a slap on the bum though...

dahamsta wrote:

Do you need a hand down off that horse Eoghan-psych?

LOL, I'll provide some fists if required

luckat

From the BBC news website:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4429706.stm


Smacking's impact 'same globally'
Actors simulate a smacking
Researchers interviewed families in six countries

Children who are smacked are more likely than those who are not to become aggressive and anxious, no matter what the cultural norm, a study says.

A global research team studied 336 families across six countries - some of which accepted smacking as legitimate discipline and some which did not.

It found smacking resulted in more behavioural problems in all countries.

But in countries where smacking was the norm, the problems were less acute, the Child Development journal reported.

Researchers from universities in Europe, Asia and the US carried out the study.

There are mixed opinions over whether smacking leads to behavioural problems and whether the society the child is being brought up in has an impact.


A child's safety and respect for their human rights should be at the core of caring for children
Mary Marsh, of the NSPCC

Various countries across Europe have outlawed smacking, but most countries in the developing world do not have regulations.

In England and Wales, smacking which leaves a mark was banned earlier this year, although "reasonable chastisement" is allowed.

Mothers and children from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines and Thailand were all interviewed.

The mothers were asked how often they physically disciplined their children, and how often they thought parents in their country resorted to smacking.

Then they interviewed the mother and child about the child's emotional state and how often they got into fights.

Mothers in Thailand were least likely to physically discipline their children, while those in India and Kenya were the most likely.

Aggression

All the children who were disciplined showed higher levels of aggression, anxiety and other emotional problems than their contemporaries.

But researchers did find that in countries where physical discipline was more common and culturally accepted, the behavioural problems were not as bad as when it was carried out where it was more taboo.

Lead researcher Jennifer Lansford said the findings prompted the question of whether physical discipline was "acceptable, regardless of whether it occurs commonly within a cultural group".

But she added: "One implication of our findings is the need for caution in making recommendations about parenting practices across different cultural groups."

Paul Farmer, chairman of the Mental Health Alliance, which represents professionals and charities, said environmental factors such as physical discipline were likely to have an impact on behavioural problems no matter what the cultural norm.

But he added: "It is not just anxiety and aggression that can be caused by trauma. Other emotional problems, such as depression, can result."

Mary Marsh, director of child protection charity NSPCC, urged parents not to smack their children.

"A child's safety and respect for their human rights should be at the core of caring for children."

And she said parents needed support in finding out about positive parenting and alternatives to hitting.

Researchers from Duke University and the University of Oregon, both in the US, the Chinese University of Hong Kong, Goteborg University in Sweden, Naples University, the University of Rome, Chiang Mai University in Thailand, and Delhi University in India, took part in the study.

PJG

Yeah sounds about right. We had another thread here we others could not see that smacking lead to aggression and other problems.

Vangelis

Hmm..

If smacking has no effect then.. Can smacking be justified.. or even encouraged?

Who does really want to frighten and inflict pain on their children this way?

lisa.c

some times kids need a smack and i do smack my lad if all else fails but more often than not it dosent work and has no effect!!!

id always agree with the odd smack but the line of beating a child should never be crossed!

pchead

We have 2 kids, aged 2 and 4. The only thing keeping my wife and I from the mental asylum and preventing the house from ending up as a pile of bricks is the occassional smack on the bum or hand.

With my limited experience, I would say that those people who condemn smacking either do not have kids or else gave bith to little angels!!. Try reasoning with a two year old who has just emptied a drawer for the 10th time, despite being warned NOT to do it again.

I do draw the line between smacking and beating. Beating can never be condoned in any circumstance. I think a good slap on the arse is more than acceptable.

All children were smacked/slapped up to a number of years ago when all this malarkey about cruelty/human rights etc started up. Can we honestly say that kids who were never smacked are better behaved?

RainyDay

lisa.c wrote:

some times kids need a smack and i do smack my lad if all else fails but more often than not it dosent work and has no effect!!!

Read what you wrote. Read it again. Read it again.

Now tell me again why you hit someone when you know it actually doesn't fix the discipline issue.

Nevyn

This can be a highly emotive topic, please keep the rules in the charter in mind.
You can disagree with out disrespecting the other posters and parents here.
I have yet to ban anyone from this forum and while it is something I would loathe to do I will.

Thaedydal

Vangelis

pchead wrote:

All children were smacked/slapped up to a number of years ago when all this malarkey about cruelty/human rights etc started up. Can we honestly say that kids who were never smacked are better behaved?

We can in many cases. They feel better about themselves, are not so afraid to disappoint their parents, they're not afraid of their parents.

Thank God for human rights.

RainyDay

pchead wrote:

Can we honestly say that kids who were never smacked are better behaved?

Wrong question - The real question is 'Can you honestly say that kids who ARE smacked are better behaved?'

mountainyman

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.

Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.


MM

PJG

mountainyman wrote:

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.

Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.


MM

Smacking 2 year olds is disgraceful, the affects it must have on the child who can’t understand why the parents are doing this to them.

TempestSabre

mountainyman wrote:

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.
Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.
MM

PJG wrote:

Smacking 2 year olds is disgraceful, the affects it must have on the child who can’t understand why the parents are doing this to them.

What studies are you basing that on? 2yrs olds are pretty smart. Mine often says "bold/naughty" to himself when hes dones something wrong, and goes out and sits on the step. Or puts his teddy there. That with no interaction from us. Then theres time when he refuses to go out there, and fights the discipline tooth and nail. He knows what he's doing IMO. Its action/reaction response. I don't think a slap is any different.

Incidentally mine has picked a whole range of Ninja moves from the other toddlers in the creche. Biting, scratching, kicking, punching slapping, and even head butting. We certainly didn't teach him that,and we try not to let him see much TV, and definately nothing with that kinda stuff in it. From my reading on the subject kids in creches tend to do this more often. That said we have a friend who doesn't put their child in a creche, doesn't slap, and their guy still hits out the same as the rest of the kids. IMO hes does it more often with the other kids because hes not used to sharing or mixing.

As always kids tend to be vary different. What works with one doesn't work with another. Also their habits change, so you have to be quick to notice when one technique isn't working and find something else. One thing I saw on the TV (supper nanny or something) is that 2yrs olds have a short attention span, so if you are punishing them, it shouldn't last very long. A minute or two at most. Because by then they've forgotten what they've done. I reckon its bit longer than that for our guy but the principle seems sound.

All that said as a society we do have a growing problem with behavioural problems with kids. It maybe just coincidence that slapping at home and school has deminished at the same time. I dunno if any of you were in school when it was stopped but the kids in mine went willd and it caused huge problems at the time. Discipline in schools is a major problem now. There was a report in the paper about it this week.

luckat

We have a problem with bad behaviour by *adults* too. Go along the city streets any night and you'll see all kinds of misbehaviour, from adult men pissing against walls to people behaving loutishly towards each other.

And the general standard of manners and just *kindness* towards each other seems to be falling, in work and in public anyway. But maybe this is inaccurate observation.

I'd love to do a candid camera show where you put a €100 note on the ground and followed what happened to it - how many people would pick it up and pocket it, how many would pick it up but call a garda, etc.

But in terms of actual crime levels, as far as I know they're dropping.

Anyway, is it wrong to slap a two-year-old? Yes, I think so. A two-year-old may understand a lot, may be bright, but hasn't reached what we used to call "the age of the use of reason", a point at which behaviour is largely subject to the intellect.

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

....hasn't reached what we used to call "the age of the use of reason", a point at which behaviour is largely subject to the intellect.

Can't find anything on the "age of the use of reason" other then history and religious stuff. Any links to good articles on it?

luckat

No, it is a religious concept, and was also used in theory of legal responsibility in medieval times. The idea was that around 7 you became responsible for your actions; before that, you weren't considered really able to control what you did, or not enough that you could be hanged if you stole a hanky, say. I was using it as shorthand really.

But anyway, the hell with whether it's appropriate to hit a two-year-old or a six-year-old or a 50-year-old or an 80-year-old. It's not appropriate to hit anyone.

Or at least not anyone you like! Do you like your children?

ArthurDent

I've a 4 and 6 year old and won't pretend that I've never slapped them, it's happened very occasionally and on each of those occasions the reason I've swatted their behinds is because I've been totally frustrated in my efforts to get them to behave. It's my failure thats caused me to lash out in frustration, nothing to do with thinking that a quick slap will bring about an improvement in their behavoiur - in fact what it tends to do is a) cause them to get very angry (and rightly so) and b) make them very stubborn and even less ameniable to doing as I ask.

I see it as a failure in my parenting when it happens and is more about me not being able to control myself.


However there is a world of difference between the occasional smack on the bum and systematic corporal punishment, the second is an immediate danger to child (and I've seen kids in the school I'm involved with bruised from being whipped) and should be criminalised, but do you really want to criminalise the former? It's a very difficult one to legislate for.

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

No, it is a religious concept, and was also used in theory of legal responsibility in medieval times. The idea was that around 7 you became responsible for your actions; before that, you weren't considered really able to control what you did, or not enough that you could be hanged if you stole a hanky, say. I was using it as shorthand really.

...medieval times... and here was I thinking it was some new theory, on child development. Pity. In medival times would we be having this discussion?

luckat wrote:

But anyway, the hell with whether it's appropriate to hit a two-year-old or a six-year-old or a 50-year-old or an 80-year-old. It's not appropriate to hit anyone.

Self defense? :eek:

luckat wrote:

Or at least not anyone you like! Do you like your children?

Ask me in a year.

mountainyman

Saying 'bold' is just a way of getting attention/ approval from you. How do you react when he says it.
Could also be imitative play, you say it to him he says it to Rabbit.
Toddlers are desperate not to upset you but it doesn't EVER occur to them that destroying your CDs might upset you.

Toddlers don't give a **** about being good and there isn't much you can do to change their behaviour though discipline.

Try making him sleep, getting them to play calmly, giving them water and not giving them heavily processed food. Also gibe him time to get out of Tantrums

Hitting him will do no good and some harm so why bother? I'm not talking about hitting someone who nearly runs under a car or sticks his tongue in a light socket or eats glass or anything like that. I mean as punishment for a toddler.

4 and 6 is totally different, They CAN understand why they've been hit. Still don't think you should hit kids though.

MM

Vangelis

A good link that should make parents think with their minds and not their hands.

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html

Look especially under RESEARCH on children's views and effects of corporal punishment.

The children's expressions of the pain they feel when hit is heart-breaking.

Another good link with advise on how to stop hitting: Talk til it stops!

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/html/home/newsandcampaigns/Talk_til_it_stops.htm

I beg all parents who hit their children to read these carefully and try to imagine what it is like for their own children to be hit. Interviews from children from many countries show the same reactions and emotional pain.

End of Corporal Punishment!

Nevyn

Vangellis the links are welcome your atitude is not.
IT is fins to have strongly held beliefs but I will not put up with the condeming of anyone here in such a fashion.
There is a difference between spanking and hitting.
Again this is a very hot topic and while debated and dicussion is welcome vilifing people and parents over this topic is not.

Vangelis

That's not my intention either. I'm just trying to do a little campaigning.
I think it's important to try to influence people - with a positive attitude.
I know this is a sensitive topic, but that is exactly why it needs to be discussed. You express that there is a difference between spanking and hitting. That is your opinion and I don't see any difference. Both are equally painful to the child. Are you discerning between them because of their different natures or because the of the differences in the pain and emotional torture they create? I think the latter one is the most significant, the one that will matter when all comes to an end.

However, I realise that we're all human, we make mistakes, and we have our limits. A difficult child is difficult to handle, but it is my opinion that hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.

Has anybody watched Nanny 911? There have been parents who hit their children and because of that the children are angry and they cry. Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops. This is a good example that things can be done differently, but it takes hard work. From all parties.

Questions: When parents hit their children, do they hit them in public or in private? If public, why? If private, is that because it feels shameful and one is afraid of being stigmatised? Or for another reason?

RainyDay

Thaedydal wrote:

Vangellis the links are welcome your atitude is not.
IT is fins to have strongly held beliefs but I will not put up with the condeming of anyone here in such a fashion.
There is a difference between spanking and hitting.
Again this is a very hot topic and while debated and dicussion is welcome vilifing people and parents over this topic is not.

Vangellis's post does not condemn or vilify anyone.

luckat

What *is* the difference between spanking and hitting?

**leafing frantically through dictionary**

PJG

Vangelis wrote:

That's not my intention either. I'm just trying to do a little campaigning.
I think it's important to try to influence people - with a positive attitude.
I know this is a sensitive topic, but that is exactly why it needs to be discussed. You express that there is a difference between spanking and hitting. That is your opinion and I don't see any difference. Both are equally painful to the child. Are you discerning between them because of their different natures or because the of the differences in the pain and emotional torture they create? I think the latter one is the most significant, the one that will matter when all comes to an end.

However, I realise that we're all human, we make mistakes, and we have our limits. A difficult child is difficult to handle, but it is my opinion that hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.

Has anybody watched Nanny 911? There have been parents who hit their children and because of that the children are angry and they cry. Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops. This is a good example that things can be done differently, but it takes hard work. From all parties.

Questions: When parents hit their children, do they hit them in public or in private? If public, why? If private, is that because it feels shameful and one is afraid of being stigmatised? Or for another reason?

I see nothing wrong with either of your posts, as far as I can see you are perfectly entitled to express your opinion like everyone else.

‘no difference between spanking and hitting’. Agreed
‘Both are equally painful to the child.’. Agreed
‘hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.’ Agreed.
‘Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops.’ Agreed

Vangelis

luckat wrote:

What *is* the difference between spanking and hitting?

**leafing frantically through dictionary**

Have you found any definition? Is there really anything more than a distinction between these two acts other than the way it is done?

The way physical punishment is done, by hitting or spanking, does not make one more acceptable than the other, or better than the other, or worse than the other. They both cause pain and it is the pain that hurts the child, not necessarily the way it is inflicted on the child. The result is what is crucial and will have negative effects on the child: fear, anger, aggressive behaviour. Can I mention more?