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    #32
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    her point is that parental leave is bollox though.. and I agree with it to a point. Why should the people that hired you have to pay for you to *not work* just because you spit out a child?


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    #33
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Parental leave is unpaid.


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    #34
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    maple wrote: »
    i believe tha women should have the same rights as men and that an individual should not be prejudiced against because of their gender.

    however i am extremely opposed to the radical and extremist form of bra burning feminism. this sort of men hating nonsense actually undoes any progress fro the womens movement.


    Like I said there are many types of feminism and I too have issues with the radical kind and people at assume that I am a radical feminist who hates men,
    I have some wonderful men in my life and thank the gods for them.


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    #35
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Femmy wrote: »
    well, i know my dad, brother and boyfriend are alot stronger than i....so if there was something that needed moving..i would get one of them to do it or at least help me with it...theres a piece of furniture here, that i could not for the life of me move on my own..i would ask one of them to help me with it...
    they can prob open a few jars that i cant..even of i do use a rubber glove or whatever other tips...
    My dad knocked down a wall in our house a few months back with a sledge hammer, i took a few wacks off it myself and barely hit the plaster off....
    If it's just a physical strength thing, then why do you specifically say "there are some things a man can do that a woman can't" as opposed to "there are some things strong people can do that weaker people can't"? Just because, on average, men are stronger than women, doesn't mean you should make the distinction based on gender. And also, feminism has nothing to do with making weaker people do jobs they're not capable of doing, so I'm puzzled as to why you brought this point up in the first place.


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    #36
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I consider myself a feminist but a certain amount of being pissed off with behaviour by particular women comes with that.
    For example: bitchiness, judging of appearance (men are the ones who always seem to get accused of body fascism) and all that sh*t women have to listen to when they reach certain ages - they should have a husband/potential husband and kids by their early 30s and if they don't they'll be "left on the shelf" (do men get that crap? No), they shouldn't wear particular types of clothes at particular ages (that has always baffled me - if a 45-year-old woman has great legs why shouldn't she wear that short skirt?!)
    A lot of that crap is propagated by women themselves - this lack of "sisterhood" really disappoints me.


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    #37
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Yes I would consider myself a feminist and I think most of the really effective opposition to the advancement of women has been from other women.

    **edit** perhaps not 'opposition', more 'undermining'.


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    #38
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Dudess wrote: »
    A lot of that crap is propagated by women themselves - this lack of "sisterhood" really disappoints me.


    That's quite true. We are are own worst enemies.


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    #39
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Well in fairness, I'm only talking about some women.

    And the way some women just comply - in particular with the whole being-left-on-the-shelf thing in your 30s. Instead of dismissing that myth as the load of sexist, ageist bollocks it is, they panic and fall into line - by agreeing with the sentiment and desperately trying to find any guy who'll tick a few boxes, and letting it take over and ruin their lives.


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    #40
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    Dudess wrote: »
    Yep, and the way some women just comply - in particular the whole being left on the shelf thing in your 30s. Instead of dismissing that myth as the load of sexist, ageist, bollocks it is, they panic and fall into line.

    :eek: you mean its not true? **climbs down off shelf** :rolleyes:

    but yes that sort of thinking beggars belief. i had a housemate once who is with the most ignorant selfish man alive, but according to her she was lucky to have him as she was 31 and it just wasn't going to happen for her if she didn't stick with him.

    i'm extremely lucky to have 4 sisters who are the epitome of sisterhood. we constantly encourage and support the others in all aspects of life, love and career. when we go out at night together, its an event, we're encouraged to look our best and to have confidence, there is no hiding our lights under bushels or any of that manipulating bs trying to dress the other unflatteringly.

    i've proably painted a picture of teh Waltons and its just not true, we fight like cats but growing up with them has been empowering. You don't have to slate other women to get ahead. solidarity is the way forward.

    **climbs down off soapbox**:o


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thaedydal wrote: »

    If you think you should have the right to determine what you want to do with your life and that all people should have the same rights and opportunities to do and that gender should not be a factor in that, then you are a feminist.

    I'm not a feminist, I am an equalitarian.
    Focusing on the furthuring the rights of one group, by limiting the rights of the others if needs be, just isn't fair in my book.


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    #42
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Philosophically yes, actively no, as I don't do anything about it.

    We are different but equal and I believe for some very good reasons and that you have to let a woman be a woman and a man be a man.

    I think also there is a global crisis in masculinity which is given rise to more misogyny.

    On the other hand, I recently had a baby and am glad it's a boy because if it were a girl I would have no idea how to prepare her for the crap she would have to put up with. [And also all the fairy princess **** would get on my nerves.]

    You just have to take a look at human resource departments to see its women who screw over other women.


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    #43
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    On the other hand, I recently had a baby and am glad it's a boy because if it were a girl I would have no idea how to prepare her for the crap she would have to put up with.
    You think guys don't have to put up with any crap?

    I think the idea that girls' lives are so much more complicated than guys' lives and that guys don't have to deal with half the crap that girls have to deal with is a complete myth. You'd think that the alarmingly high rate of male suicide would make it plainly obvious that this is the case, but evidently not.

    I have to ask those of you who claim to be feminists on the basis of being opposed to the societal standards/pressures imposed on women, why not just take a stance against societal standards/pressures in general rather than a gender specific stance?


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    #44
    Maple
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    You think guys don't have to put up with any crap?

    I think the idea that girls' lives are so much more complicated than guys' lives and that guys don't have to deal with half the crap that girls have to deal with is a complete myth. You'd think that the alarmingly high rate of male suicide would make it plainly obvious that this is the case, but evidently not.

    I have to ask those of you who claim to be feminists on the basis of being opposed to the societal standards/pressures imposed on women, why not just take a stance against societal standards/pressures in general rather than a gender specific stance?

    If you read the thread you'll find that most of us do and, are opposed to discrimination against a person because of their gender irrespective of them being male/female.

    And I do agree that men have just as much sh1t to deal with as women, i actually think that i am lucky to be a woman because its deemed socially acceptable for me to talk about my feelings whereas in a man/boy its perceived as weak. Yes we may say that times are changing but imo they are not changing fast enough.


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    #45
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I'm not a Feminist. Feminism as a movement is essentially the gender equivalent of a trade union so being a man it makes as much sense in my being a Feminist as it does a commuter to be a member of the bus drivers union.


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    #46
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,518 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Double standards do exist, but they work both ways. Fair nuff, the whole "woman sleeps with man. therefore woman is slut but man is legend" debate exists, but there are issues such as male guardianship and male rape victims where discrimination exists. Without bothering to list them, I personally believe there is an equal amount of equality issues apparent in western society.

    But as Thaed pointed out, this is about feminism and not just equality. I'm with Moonbaby on this one in that I would be more of an equilatarian. As for the initial feminist issues such as suffrage and equal pay, very few people would be against these, and I can't think of a single argument as to why they would be.

    Unfortunately for any feminist arguments, they would be better suited to fall under another 'ism', such as liberalism, secularism, etc. Very few Irish people would be for burkhas, but that would be more of a secularism/religious/humanitarian argument than feminist argument. IMHO, if a woman objects to FHM models baring all, it is not because they are a feminist, but they are conservative or merely have a conservative streak. Some women don't object to it, and it doesn't bother me when the next six-pack-exposing boy band video is released; the cynical twat in me just mutters the word "fag" in my head and I switch channel.


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    #47
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    David Michael wrote: »
    Me too. and I'm a bloke.
    .

    Of course men can and should be feminists too :)

    I would definatly consider myself a feminist in the traditional sense that women should be equal to men. At the moment in Ireland I believe we are far from being equal to men.
    There was a very good article in Marie Claire last month about rebranding feminism for the 21st century.Did anyone else read it?


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    #48
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Philosophically yes, actively no, as I don't do anything about it.

    Why ?
    and what would you consider to be being active ?
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I think also there is a global crisis in masculinity which is given rise to more misogyny.

    I agree, but I think that education has a part to play in this and modren histroy covering the shift in gender roles has not been taught in school.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    On the other hand, I recently had a baby and am glad it's a boy because if it were a girl I would have no idea how to prepare her for the crap she would have to put up with.

    Wow just wow, you acknowledge that there are problems and challeneges to the extent you don't want a daughter because you think her lot in this world is worse then a sons would be but you say you would not do anything about it.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    [And also all the fairy princess **** would get on my nerves.]

    That you can get a handle on, I have managed.


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    #49
    TheB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭TheB


    I've read the definition.. still not sure if I'm a feminist or not.

    I think that women should have no less and no more rights than men..and vice versa.. but..

    I'm not one for the "boy" jobs in life.. he can chop wood, get all manky fixing the car, hit things with hammers etc etc..

    I'll happily stack the dishwasher and stick some jeans in the wash to not have to do stuff with concrete and mini diggers..

    There is definite divides in life - just because of physical and mental differences and I'm reasonably happy with them.. can't see the boys having a Cosmo & SATC night in.. or me getting hammered and singing rugby songs while arguing the forward pass decision of the 54th minute..

    But thats just me..
    I'm FAR from the giggly girlie sort .. and wouldn't put up with different treatment in the work place or anywhere else.. I'm also not very delicate either .. :D .. not exactly the swooning heroine sort.. I just don't like doing some things I consider "boy" stuff.. thats why I have one :D

    After that probably totally unclear ramble I'm off to arrange some flowers.. :cool:


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    #50
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    TheB wrote: »
    can't see the boys having a Cosmo & SATC night in.. or me getting hammered and singing rugby songs while arguing the forward pass decision of the 54th minute..
    Nice stereotyping.
    TheB wrote: »
    I'm not one for the "boy" jobs in life.. he can chop wood, get all manky fixing the car, hit things with hammers etc etc..

    I'll happily stack the dishwasher and stick some jeans in the wash to not have to do stuff with concrete and mini diggers..

    ...

    I just don't like doing some things I consider "boy" stuff..
    Why must you associate certain activities with gender? Everyone has things they like and dislike doing. It's not because they fit into a certain stereotype based on gender, it's because individuals are different.


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    #51
    pretty-in-pink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭pretty-in-pink


    Yes, and no

    We are equal but different, and full equality has not been reached. It really boils my blood to see how a lot of countries treat their women though. Particularily the Islamic ones. Barbaric doesn't begin to cover it- the way they treat rape cases in Saudi for example. Its disgraceful. It also annoys me when people give out about certain subtle differences here (guys buying the drinks, girls get a rep easier, wage difference)yes, all valid points, however when there is such brutality in other countries, it makes our issues look petty. If we are all born free and equal- then why the heck aren't the people who have the real power doing something about the way other countries/cultures treat their women?

    *I feel a rant comin on, so I will stop typing for now


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    #52
    pretty*monster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    I'm a feminist.
    I don't believe men and women are equal, I don't think equality of oppertunity will neceserily lead to equality of outcome, but I don't think that that's contradictory to my being a feminist.


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    #53
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    A feminist is a person believes in feminism.

    If you think you should have the right to determine what you want to do with your life and that all people should have the same rights and opportunities to do and that gender should not be a factor in that,
    then you are a feminist.

    Yup. I am that feminist.
    can't see the boys having a Cosmo & SATC night in.. or me getting hammered and singing rugby songs while arguing the forward pass decision of the 54th minute..

    None of that has anything to do with feminism though.
    TC wrote:
    Feminism as a movement is essentially the gender equivalent of a trade union so being a man it makes as much sense in my being a Feminist as it does a commuter to be a member of the bus drivers union

    Feminism, to a great extent, for many of us, has done it's job thanks to those women from back in the day.
    Many countries could still do with a strong movement.
    I'm guessing that Thaed started this thread because women of a certain age don't even know how or why the movement started in the first place and what a lot of very strong women had to do in order to get it, let alone what the term actually means.
    In fact, from a lot of responses in this thread so far, may women don't understand what feminism actually is.


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    #54
    TheB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭TheB


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Why must you associate certain activities with gender? Everyone has things they like and dislike doing. It's not because they fit into a certain stereotype based on gender, it's because individuals are different.

    I just don't like doing some things I consider "boy" stuff..
    [/QUOTE]
    TheB wrote: »
    I'm not one for the "boy" jobs in life.. he can chop wood, get all manky fixing the car, hit things with hammers etc etc..

    But thats just me..


    Didn't say it was definitively how it is .. its how I perceive it.. I suppose I'm old fashioned there.. I think men (and it comes down to biology here) are designed to do different jobs (I don't mean anything to do with child rearing/parenting btw) than women.. they have less body fat, heavier musculature and a greater proportion of fast twitch muscle fibre than most women.. so in my book they are designed to do certain jobs better than women .. this doesn't mean women can't do those things but physically men *might* be better than women at them..

    You only have to look at the figures.. (again stereotyping - cos it's easier :D)How many female lumberjacks are there ? How many female crab fishermen (sorry- been watching Deadliest Catch too much again) are out there ? There are male dominated jobs out there for a reason.. and apart from the odd special woman who has got what it takes women would (I think) probably not succeed in these jobs..
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Nice stereotyping.

    Might be stereotyping but in my life it's true - my OH would rather cut off his own hand than watch a series of SATC all in one night - whereas now & again I get together with my friends and do just that - sad.. but we like it..

    Anyway.. I'm happy with my lot.. I ride horses and cook stuff..he says Ug a lot and does stuff with concrete while drinking Guinness from a Vat.. we get on great :D;)


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    #55
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    TheB wrote: »
    I think men (and it comes down to biology here) are designed to do different jobs (I don't mean anything to do with child rearing/parenting btw) than women.. they have less body fat, heavier musculature and a greater proportion of fast twitch muscle fibre than most women.. so in my book they are designed to do certain jobs better than women

    You are missing the point.

    Do you believe that if a woman wanted to do those 'certain jobs' that she has every right to do so?


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    #56
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Why ?
    and what would you consider to be being active ?.

    I would consider feminism to have a global perspective on the equal rights and dignity for women. Now, what do I do about a woman who gets acid thrown on her face as a punishment for getting raped? Nothing. What do I do about female genital muitilation? Nothing. What do I do about baby girls being killed in China? Nothing.

    I celebrate the upcoming patriarchal holiday of Christmas, I buy makeup, etc etc.

    Moreso, I may have alot more in common with a middle class white boy than I would with a wife and mother of 6 in India, so I dont necessarily follow the rule of thumb about gender being the main locus if identity.
    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I agree, but I think that education has a part to play in this and modren histroy covering the shift in gender roles has not been taught in school./QUOTE]

    Pre 911 noone cared about the taliban's misogyny. I think its about more roles, but deep seated fear.

    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Wow just wow, you acknowledge that there are problems and challeneges to the extent you don't want a daughter because you think her lot in this world is worse then a sons would be but you say you would not do anything about it. .

    I didnt say "I didnt want a daughter" I just pointed out the relief in having a boy. Nor did I say I wouldnt do anything about it, at least not for her. There would be a limit to what I could do for her. I could push her toward science as my mother tried to do with me or distract her away from Barbies, and get her into martial arts, but I wouldnt call these feminist strategies, just half decent mothering.


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    #57
    TheB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭TheB


    Beruthiel wrote: »

    None of that has anything to do with feminism though.

    I think it might.. because as long as any stereotyping exists about the Man/Woman divide it affects how we live & feminist issues - it's not fair but it does.. like the one "women can't be tough enough in the business world as they are too affected by hormones" - utter rubbish. But it exists, I've heard people say it and seen people not get promoted to positions they deserve because of it..

    Stereotypes "started" for a reason though.. because people display stereotypical behaviour that originates in millions of years of human instinct IMO..

    I display stereotypical behaviours about certain things whether I like it or not .. 99% of other people do too...

    In fact, from a lot of responses in this thread so far, may women don't understand what feminism actually is

    TheB wrote: »
    I've read the definition.. still not sure if I'm a feminist or not.

    I can own up to this..in fact I did.. my basic understanding of feminism (as I said in my original post) is that men and women should have equal rights..
    I think that women should have no less and no more rights than men..and vice versa.. but..

    and I agree with this.. but I am confused by it as although I do agree with equal rights (pay issues.. the Legend Vs Ho arguement etc etc) I personally don't want to do what I think are boy jobs.. so am I not a feminist ? :dunno: ... However I'm quite clear on the fact I'm fairly intellectually challenged about this subject :) so don't mind having it explained to me..


    ThickoBx


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    #58
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    We are different but equal and I believe for some very good reasons and that you have to let a woman be a woman and a man be a man.
    Agreed and also let women and men be whatever they want to be along that curve.
    I think also there is a global crisis in masculinity which is given rise to more misogyny.
    Agreed again. There is definitely a crisis among a certain group of males. I see it myself with some of the younger ones I know. They seem confused how to act as men and either over egg the macho BS or become emotionally wet EMO metrosexuals. Either is fine if that what you decide to be after some experience and thought, but balance is everything. Maybe it's down to the lack of male role models in their personal life. Hard to say. I remember my dad making the point that in his day in the 30's and 40's(he was older when he got hitched:)) many men went through apprenticeships(or joined the military), that while teaching them their chosen career also thought them how to be men. At it's best it taught them emotional consistency, balance and respect. It also made them feel part of an established group. Interaction with more experienced males that weren't their fathers seems to make a difference(most tribal societies operate the same way). You see that in gang culture and how popular it is among males. It makes them feel like they belong, even at the cost of their lives. They're actively looking for that.

    While women obviously can and do make great parents, they alone can't expect to be able to know or show how it is to be a man. In much the same way as a man can't know or show his daughter how it is to be a women. They can only guide in a vague way. If the parents(men and women) don't then it's left to society and nowadays thats the media. While thankfully we have come far in throwing out much of the misogyny in society, a disenfranchised group of males loose on deck does no one any favours.

    You just have to take a look at human resource departments to see its women who screw over other women.
    I really agree on this one. Women can be often each others worst enemies. As I was saying on the woman boss thread, I generally prefer dealing with women, but I do see how many of the same women treat other women in the workplace. The difference to how they may interact with me is often surprising. These are very capable intelligent people too. They give and receive far more crap from other women then they do from men. Most when asked agree with that too.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #59
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Moreso, I may have alot more in common with a middle class white boy than I would with a wife and mother of 6 in India, so I dont necessarily follow the rule of thumb about gender being the main locus if identity.
    Very good point.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #60
    TheB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭TheB


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Do you believe that if a woman wanted to do those 'certain jobs' that she has every right to do so?

    Yes.. If you are ABLE to do those jobs then go.. do them..good luck to you... but if you can't then you shouldn't there ... whether you want to or not..


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    #61
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Feminism, to a great extent, for many of us, has done it's job thanks to those women from back in the day.
    .


    Until you see equal pay for equal work, feminism has not done it's job.

    Until American feminism borrows from European feminism and includes motherhood in its agendas, it has not done it's job. And this includes what happens to mothers in human resource departments.

    Until ads like the recent Boots ad "here come the girls" are not seen anymore, feminism has not done it's job. [It's all women leaving their cublicles -indicating a low status position like a secretary or low level administrator-to to the tune of "here come the girls, girls, girls,]go put on makeup and presumably go to a Christmas party. There are no doctors taking off their stethoscopes, or CEOs leaving big skyscraper offices].

    I could go on and on....


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