Do the 'nations' belonging to the 'nation' of the UK have an identity crisis?

darkman2 · 26-11-2007 06:08PM #1

Ive often found this odd. The UK, the British claim, is a 'country' or a 'nation'? Right, fair enough. However why then in Football and most other sports do they play as other 'nations' like Scotland, Wales and England.........it seems a bit contradictory. In recent years its been claimed that the English have an identity crisis more so then Scotland and Wales.........they dont even have 'home rule' yet the others do. Its a big topic and loads of contradictions can be found but do you think the British have an identity problem?

Fratton Fred · 26-11-2007 06:22PM

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

There, no identity crisis from what I can see.

delta_bravo · 26-11-2007 06:22PM

Really only applies to Cricket, Football and Rugby.

For athletics they are united

darkman2 · 26-11-2007 06:26PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

Does that not prove it though because internationally people will describe you as British most of the time? Especially the Americans but then again they dont know much about the outside world anyway. Interestingly ive noticed far less Union Jacks at England soccer games in recent years.

Fratton Fred · 26-11-2007 06:33PM

darkman2 wrote: »

Does that not prove it though because internationally people will describe you as British most of the time? Especially the Americans but then again they dont know much about the outside world anyway. Interestingly ive noticed far less Union Jacks at England soccer games in recent years.

The Americans think it is politically correct to call us Brits for some reason. When they talk about London though, it is London England so they know we exist.

If you look at footage of the 1966 world cup final (That's when we won it by the way, 1966:D) there were a load of Union Jacks and very few England flags now you will hardly see a Union flag at an England game (and quite rightly so) there are even more calls to replace God Save the Queen at England matches with an English anthem.

Manic Moran · 26-11-2007 06:35PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

There, no identity crisis from what I can see.

Historically, from the military point of view at least, the Scots have had very little objection to being called "British", but really get upset if you say "English." There were examples of Soldiers from Scottish regiments (And at least one ship's crew) correcting Germans in WWII saying "We're nae fookin Englanders. We're Scots! British!"

NTM

Jigsaw · 26-11-2007 06:45PM

I don't think many people consider themselves to be British.

Any English people I know are very much English and with Scotland and Wales it is even more so.

With Northern Ireland, there will be Unionists who will declare themselves British but because of the political and social history perhaps they feel the need to stress the point more.

To my understanding it makes no sense for them to describe themselves as British. My understanding is that constitutionally speaking NI is part of the United Kingdom, but Great Britain is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (and Jersey etc etc). In that case they could consider themselves Northern Irish, Northern Ireland being a constituent nation of the United Kingdom, or else consider themselves Irish. They may align themselves with "Britishness", fish n chips, dancing around the maypole etc, but they cannot legitimately claim to actually be British.

History has f**ked a lot of things up. When I say history what I mean is a selfish, commodity and power hungry British Empire.

kraggy · 26-11-2007 06:46PM

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

darkman2 · 26-11-2007 06:47PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you look at footage of the 1966 world cup final (That's when we won it by the way, 1966:D)

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

Jigsaw · 26-11-2007 06:53PM

kraggy wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

My point exactly. Unfortunately many of them are far too pigheaded and stubborn in their views to be convinced by a simple and clear demonstration of the facts. Just blinkered. It is a sad sad situation.

jor el · 26-11-2007 06:53PM

darkman2 wrote: »

Right, fair enough. However why then in Football and most other sports do they play as other 'nations' like Scotland, Wales and England.........it seems a bit contradictory.

Is it because they play as countries, and not nations? I don't know, but it's what I've always thought.

kraggy wrote:

But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

Could be because they simply don't know.

Like the woman on "Are you smarter than a 10 year old" a week or two ago. The question was how many countries make up Great Britain, and the dizzy bint answered ONE! Bare in mind, this was 6-year old geography.

The moral is that people are generally not smarter than a 6-year old, they're just thick.

Terry · 26-11-2007 06:56PM

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

I think he had his tongue firmly in his cheek there.

Fratton Fred · 26-11-2007 06:57PM

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won another World Cup today. Could we survive?

there, corrected that for you.

We have already won it once, in 1966 in case you didn't know:D

Ponster · 26-11-2007 06:58PM

kraggy wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

Someone starts a thread about this every 2 days it seems.

People from Ireland were defined as British in the Act of Union, both north and south. When the Free State was created and we lost our British tag the north kept theirs.
Just because it says "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" does not mean that people in the north can't call themselves British if they want to though I agree that it may look that way from the wording.

> I don't think many people consider themselves to be British.

The only person I know is my wife who has an English mother and a Welsh father. While born in England the 'ol heart is at home in Wales so British kinda works out I guess.

mike65 · 26-11-2007 07:05PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "Why are the Irish obssesed with Britain and the er English?" would be a good topic for discussion - NOT.

Mike.

kraggy · 26-11-2007 07:08PM

mike65 wrote: »

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "Why are the Irish obssesed with Britian and the er English?" would be a good topic for discussion - NOT.

Mike.

Maybe the same reason ye English are so obsessed with yourselves. NOT

26-11-2007 08:23PM

Who cares!!! in a few years time (assuming euro sceptics don't get into government, and take the UK out) England, Wales & Scotland will just be member states of the good ol'e US of E! along with Ireland/republic of Ireland & Norm Iron!

mike65 · 26-11-2007 08:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

along with Ireland/republic of Ireland & Norn Iron!

Ah now, there's a confusion.

Mike.

OPENROAD · 26-11-2007 08:47PM

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

Now that Ireland have got Italy in world cup draw, we are never going to hear the end of the 1990 world cup when we won, actually we won no matches in normal time.

Latchy · 26-11-2007 08:56PM

The english are genuinely concerned that ther englishness and british identity is being underminded by all kinds of cultural invasions and political correctness over recent years .

OPENROAD · 26-11-2007 09:01PM

latchyco wrote: »

The english are genuinely concerned that ther englishness and british identity is being underminded by all kinds of cultural invasions and political correctness over recent years .

You now have a situation where London has an official St Patricks day parade and events, yet they don't celebrate St Georges day.

beanyb · 26-11-2007 09:06PM

*Pulls out political science hat*

Basically, all this comes down to is the differing definitions of 'nation' and 'state'. Very, very simply put a 'state' (like the UK) is a political entity and a 'nation' (Like England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is a cultural entity. It's entirely possible to consider yourself both English and British, as they are different identities.

Hagar · 26-11-2007 09:13PM

Northern Ireland is not a Nation, hell it's not even a province, it's 2/3rds of a province.

beanyb · 26-11-2007 09:20PM

In terms of the UK, it's is a separate nation to England, Scotland and Wales. In Irish terms, maybe not. It's also quite subjective because I'm pretty sure there's a good few people up there who view themselves as having an entirely different cultural background to the 'Irish' nation.

But I didnt mean to turn this into any sort of Northern Ireland, nationalist vs. unionist debate, because really I'm not bothered. So yeah, I take it back.

Latchy · 26-11-2007 09:29PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

You now have a situation where London has an official St Patricks day parade and events, yet they don't celebrate St Georges day.

Yea, thats how ironic and they have being pointing this out in the british press for years now, but equally their are threads on here about how people in the ROI are worried about how their irishness and culture is being lost and diluted by the same influx of emmigrants (on a smaler scale ) as in uk , i am sure ? .

Hagar · 26-11-2007 09:36PM

beanyb wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's a good few people up there who view themselves as having an entirely different cultural background to the 'Irish' nation.

Maybe that's because they are not indigenous to this island?
They are of Scots descent aren't they?

26-11-2007 09:58PM

Hagar wrote: »

Maybe that's because they are not indigenous to this island?

You could say that for about 99% of all europeans, the Human race originated in west/central Africa a while ago;)

Hagar · 26-11-2007 10:12PM

That would be several thousands years ago. A bit different from an area being "settled" 400 years ago by a population who actively didn't want to integrate and still don't.

mike65 · 26-11-2007 10:18PM

Were'nt many of the "planted" the decendents of Irish who went to SW Scotland in the 8th/9th century?

Mike.

26-11-2007 10:21PM

Hagar wrote: »

That would be several thousands years ago. A bit different from an area being "settled" 400 years ago by a population who actively didn't want to integrate and still don't.

Some people just prefer to build walls rather than bridges - this applies to both sides btw.

As the old saying goes " if you can't beat them, join them" but neither side has or can claim "victory".
Same could be said for (many of) the asians who have settled in UK & Ireland in the past 50 years or so, history repeating itself?

Hagar · 26-11-2007 10:24PM

When was the last time you ordered in a Unionist meal?
Don't tell me your fruiterer delivers oranges.:D

@Mike That would be accurate enough, just don't tell them that on the Shankhill.

Do the 'nations' belonging to the 'nation' of the UK have an identity crisis?

Comments