Do the 'nations' belonging to the 'nation' of the UK have an identity crisis?

darkman2

Ive often found this odd. The UK, the British claim, is a 'country' or a 'nation'? Right, fair enough. However why then in Football and most other sports do they play as other 'nations' like Scotland, Wales and England.........it seems a bit contradictory. In recent years its been claimed that the English have an identity crisis more so then Scotland and Wales.........they dont even have 'home rule' yet the others do. Its a big topic and loads of contradictions can be found but do you think the British have an identity problem?

Fratton Fred

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

There, no identity crisis from what I can see.

delta_bravo

Really only applies to Cricket, Football and Rugby.

For athletics they are united

darkman2

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

Does that not prove it though because internationally people will describe you as British most of the time? Especially the Americans but then again they dont know much about the outside world anyway. Interestingly ive noticed far less Union Jacks at England soccer games in recent years.

Fratton Fred

darkman2 wrote: »

Does that not prove it though because internationally people will describe you as British most of the time? Especially the Americans but then again they dont know much about the outside world anyway. Interestingly ive noticed far less Union Jacks at England soccer games in recent years.

The Americans think it is politically correct to call us Brits for some reason. When they talk about London though, it is London England so they know we exist.

If you look at footage of the 1966 world cup final (That's when we won it by the way, 1966:D) there were a load of Union Jacks and very few England flags now you will hardly see a Union flag at an England game (and quite rightly so) there are even more calls to replace God Save the Queen at England matches with an English anthem.

Manic Moran

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Outside of Northern Ireland and the BBC you will be hard pushed to find anyone who considers themselves "British".

I'm English not British and I'm sure most people from Gretna north consider themselves to be Scots.

There, no identity crisis from what I can see.

Historically, from the military point of view at least, the Scots have had very little objection to being called "British", but really get upset if you say "English." There were examples of Soldiers from Scottish regiments (And at least one ship's crew) correcting Germans in WWII saying "We're nae fookin Englanders. We're Scots! British!"

NTM

Jigsaw

I don't think many people consider themselves to be British.

Any English people I know are very much English and with Scotland and Wales it is even more so.

With Northern Ireland, there will be Unionists who will declare themselves British but because of the political and social history perhaps they feel the need to stress the point more.

To my understanding it makes no sense for them to describe themselves as British. My understanding is that constitutionally speaking NI is part of the United Kingdom, but Great Britain is made up of England, Scotland and Wales (and Jersey etc etc). In that case they could consider themselves Northern Irish, Northern Ireland being a constituent nation of the United Kingdom, or else consider themselves Irish. They may align themselves with "Britishness", fish n chips, dancing around the maypole etc, but they cannot legitimately claim to actually be British.

History has f**ked a lot of things up. When I say history what I mean is a selfish, commodity and power hungry British Empire.

kraggy

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

darkman2

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you look at footage of the 1966 world cup final (That's when we won it by the way, 1966:D)

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

Jigsaw

kraggy wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

My point exactly. Unfortunately many of them are far too pigheaded and stubborn in their views to be convinced by a simple and clear demonstration of the facts. Just blinkered. It is a sad sad situation.

jor el

darkman2 wrote: »

Right, fair enough. However why then in Football and most other sports do they play as other 'nations' like Scotland, Wales and England.........it seems a bit contradictory.

Is it because they play as countries, and not nations? I don't know, but it's what I've always thought.

kraggy wrote:

But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

Could be because they simply don't know.

Like the woman on "Are you smarter than a 10 year old" a week or two ago. The question was how many countries make up Great Britain, and the dizzy bint answered ONE! Bare in mind, this was 6-year old geography.

The moral is that people are generally not smarter than a 6-year old, they're just thick.

Terry

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

I think he had his tongue firmly in his cheek there.

Fratton Fred

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won another World Cup today. Could we survive?

there, corrected that for you.

We have already won it once, in 1966 in case you didn't know:D

Ponster

kraggy wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how Unionists in the north can claim to be British when the United Kingdom is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Hence, it is the composition of two areas, Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore by definition, they are two separate entities.

I've no problem with Unionists claiming to be part of the UK. That's their business. But I don't understand how they can claim to be British.

Someone starts a thread about this every 2 days it seems.

People from Ireland were defined as British in the Act of Union, both north and south. When the Free State was created and we lost our British tag the north kept theirs.
Just because it says "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" does not mean that people in the north can't call themselves British if they want to though I agree that it may look that way from the wording.



> I don't think many people consider themselves to be British.

The only person I know is my wife who has an English mother and a Welsh father. While born in England the 'ol heart is at home in Wales so British kinda works out I guess.

mike65

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "Why are the Irish obssesed with Britain and the er English?" would be a good topic for discussion - NOT.

Mike.

kraggy

mike65 wrote: »

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. "Why are the Irish obssesed with Britian and the er English?" would be a good topic for discussion - NOT.

Mike.

Maybe the same reason ye English are so obsessed with yourselves. NOT

Who cares!!! in a few years time (assuming euro sceptics don't get into government, and take the UK out) England, Wales & Scotland will just be member states of the good ol'e US of E! along with Ireland/republic of Ireland & Norm Iron!

mike65

Deleted User wrote: »

along with Ireland/republic of Ireland & Norn Iron!

Ah now, there's a confusion.

Mike.

OPENROAD

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding us..........:rolleyes:;)

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if you actually won a World Cup today. Could we survive?

Now that Ireland have got Italy in world cup draw, we are never going to hear the end of the 1990 world cup when we won, actually we won no matches in normal time.

Latchy

The english are genuinely concerned that ther englishness and british identity is being underminded by all kinds of cultural invasions and political correctness over recent years .

OPENROAD

latchyco wrote: »

The english are genuinely concerned that ther englishness and british identity is being underminded by all kinds of cultural invasions and political correctness over recent years .

You now have a situation where London has an official St Patricks day parade and events, yet they don't celebrate St Georges day.

beanyb

*Pulls out political science hat*

Basically, all this comes down to is the differing definitions of 'nation' and 'state'. Very, very simply put a 'state' (like the UK) is a political entity and a 'nation' (Like England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is a cultural entity. It's entirely possible to consider yourself both English and British, as they are different identities.

Hagar

Northern Ireland is not a Nation, hell it's not even a province, it's 2/3rds of a province.

beanyb

In terms of the UK, it's is a separate nation to England, Scotland and Wales. In Irish terms, maybe not. It's also quite subjective because I'm pretty sure there's a good few people up there who view themselves as having an entirely different cultural background to the 'Irish' nation.

But I didnt mean to turn this into any sort of Northern Ireland, nationalist vs. unionist debate, because really I'm not bothered. So yeah, I take it back.

Latchy

OPENROAD wrote: »

You now have a situation where London has an official St Patricks day parade and events, yet they don't celebrate St Georges day.

Yea, thats how ironic and they have being pointing this out in the british press for years now, but equally their are threads on here about how people in the ROI are worried about how their irishness and culture is being lost and diluted by the same influx of emmigrants (on a smaler scale ) as in uk , i am sure ? .

Hagar

beanyb wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's a good few people up there who view themselves as having an entirely different cultural background to the 'Irish' nation.

Maybe that's because they are not indigenous to this island?
They are of Scots descent aren't they?

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

Maybe that's because they are not indigenous to this island?

You could say that for about 99% of all europeans, the Human race originated in west/central Africa a while ago;)

Hagar

That would be several thousands years ago. A bit different from an area being "settled" 400 years ago by a population who actively didn't want to integrate and still don't.

mike65

Were'nt many of the "planted" the decendents of Irish who went to SW Scotland in the 8th/9th century?

Mike.

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

That would be several thousands years ago. A bit different from an area being "settled" 400 years ago by a population who actively didn't want to integrate and still don't.

Some people just prefer to build walls rather than bridges - this applies to both sides btw.

As the old saying goes " if you can't beat them, join them" but neither side has or can claim "victory".
Same could be said for (many of) the asians who have settled in UK & Ireland in the past 50 years or so, history repeating itself?

Hagar

When was the last time you ordered in a Unionist meal?
Don't tell me your fruiterer delivers oranges.:D

@Mike That would be accurate enough, just don't tell them that on the Shankhill.

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

Were'nt many of the "planted" the decendents of Irish who went to SW Scotland in the 8th/9th century?

Mike.

Don't think so, I believe that most of the "planted" were Lowland Scots, decendants of Vikings etc, not celts.

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

When was the last time you ordered in a Unionist meal?
Don't tell me your fruiterer delivers oranges.:D

I only know of ONE "Indian" resturant run by Indians, the rest are Pakistani or Bengladeshi run.

Unionist meal, what would be in it (answers on a postcard)

darkman2

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people just prefer to build walls rather than bridges

I actually agree with him - f!ck them......they were planted there, they threw native Irish off their own land and now want the North of this country to not be Irish. No time for these people tbh. Actually it could be argued they are mentally disturbed - the Unionists. They are far from logical people. They also get a buzz from being under a sense of siege. I wonder why......

county

Deleted User wrote: »

I only know of ONE "Indian" resturant run by Indians, the rest are Pakistani or Bengladeshi run.

Unionist meal, what would be in it (answers on a postcard)

charcoal feinien perhaps


back on topic,i am english and british,no identity crisis here

OPENROAD

latchyco wrote: »

Yea, thats how ironic and they have being pointing this out in the british press for years now, but equally their are threads on here about how people in the ROI are worried about how their irishness and culture is being lost and diluted by the same influx of emmigrants (on a smaler scale ) as in uk , i am sure ? .

OP is referring to UK, so ROI doesnt really come into it as such. But with regards Ireland and Irish culture been diluted, can't see it that way myself, far from it,if people have fears about this,personally I think they may have other issues.

I suppose the sense of nationhood only deteriates when traditions unique to that country are allowed to die out, in England, morris dancing for example, is only for the tourists, no one really identifies with it any more.
A lot of old English traditions have either died out altogether or are now international and no longer considered English.

pickarooney

OPENROAD wrote: »

Now that Ireland have got Italy in world cup draw, we are never going to hear the end of the 1990 world cup when we won, actually we won no matches in normal time.

Why, when we could go on about 1994, when we beat Italy in normal time (rewengay!), something not even "champions" Brazil could manage, making us de facto winners, if it hadn't been for those pesky Dutch kids.

Campione, campione, etc., etc.

Deleted User wrote: »

Unionist meal, what would be in it (answers on a postcard)

Beedled champ, of course. :rolleyes:

OPENROAD

pickarooney wrote: »

Why, when we could go on about 1994, when we beat Italy in normal time (rewengay!), something not even "champions" Brazil could manage, making us de facto winners, if it hadn't been for those pesky Dutch kids.

Campione, campione, etc., etc.

I forgot about that:D

Cionnfhaolaidh

latchyco wrote: »

Yea, thats how ironic and they have being pointing this out in the british press for years now, but equally their are threads on here about how people in the ROI are worried about how their irishness and culture is being lost and diluted by the same influx of emmigrants (on a smaler scale ) as in uk , i am sure ? .

The majority of Irish culture has already been lost to British culture.

robinph

darkman2 wrote: »

However why then in Football and most other sports do they play as other 'nations' like Scotland, Wales and England.

For football at least there is a reason for them to want to keep the seperate compteting countries despite only being the one nation* as they then get the majority vote on any rule changes or other things that the likes of Fifa might decide upon. The UK has four seats on the games governing body, the rest of the EU gets two seats I think and then another one or two for the rest of the world to share between them.


* Might have got the usage of 'country' and 'nation' the wrong way round but we'll ignore that for now.

odyssey06

darkman2 wrote: »

Its a big topic and loads of contradictions can be found but do you think the British have an identity problem?

There are not contradictions. They are complexities that have evolved over time because of political decisions and the voluntary associations of peoples of these islands. Why does Ireland play as a single team at rugby, but two teams at soccer? Why does the Republic have a common travel agreement with Britain but not France? Why have more Irishmen died fighting for Britain than ever fought against it? Why do do the Celtic nations cheer for whoever is playing against England, except when it is rugby and we all play together as the British and Irish Lions? Why do we call ourselves Celtic when we don't even speak the language anymore and aren't Celtic by blood?

I could go on. But just go with the flow. A 1000-page history book would only scratch the surface of all these complexities...

Latchy

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

The majority of Irish culture has already been lost to British culture.

Maybe so , but hasn't the influx of immigrants in recent years to ireland brought other cultures to the fore as well ? .

Fratton Fred

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

The majority of Irish culture has already been lost to British culture.

It has.

Chinese Take aways, Indian Take aways, Pizza, Bagels, McDonalds, 24x7 kwikimarts, Heinekan, Grolsch, customising cars, Gucci, Prada, Dior, BMW, Mercedes, Facebook....damn those Brits:D

There is a lot of British influence, but mainly as part of the globalisation of brands such as Tesco and the Premier League and the Irish obsession with Corrie and Eastenders but that is due in part to the complete crap that is RTE.

The above list shows other influences that are non british but have had just as much effect on Irish culture.

ejmaztec

Aren't there more Irish theme pubs in England than there are English theme pubs in Ireland? In fact, are there any English theme pubs in Ireland at all? If there are, I wonder what the fire-insurance premium would be.:D

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

Aren't there more Irish theme pubs in England than there are English theme pubs in Ireland? In fact, are there any English theme pubs in Ireland at all? If there are, I wonder what the fire-insurance premium would be.:D

I love Irish theme pubs, you can tell them, they have words like "Enjoy the Craic" written above the door and you can buy bad Beamish served by an Australian on a gap year.:D:rolleyes:

They are usually full of Americans

Cionnfhaolaidh

latchyco wrote: »

Maybe so , but hasn't the influx of immigrants in recent years to ireland brought other cultures to the fore as well ? .

Yes of course. It's a great thing for the island. Ireland needs a kick up the arse in relation to culture and identity, so it's great to see these immigrants comming here injecting some life into the place.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is a lot of British influence, but mainly as part of the globalisation of brands...
The above list shows other influences that are non british but have had just as much effect on Irish culture.

The idea of "British influence" in modern Ireland is absolutely negligible. The Irish are British. There is nothing that differentiates you from England, Scotland or Wales. Name one thing that makes Ireland different to the rest of the UK. Irish people are content with every aspect of British culture. The English language, literature, ideals, laws, sports and arts, these are all rooted deeply into Ireland and its people.

The only native culture in Ireland is Gaelic culture and there is very, very little of it left. The Irish lost their Brehon Laws, their language, literature, arts, music and sports, all in favour of the "British ways".

I reckon only 3% of Irish people still practice true Irish culture, me being one of them. I've put a lot of effort into learning about every aspect of Gaelic culture. I speak Gaelic, I play Irish music and I study Gaelic history. At this stage I feel that I have truly earned my Irish citizenship.

It's good to see new nationalities coming into this island. They have already made their own cultural mark in a big way in Ireland - just walk down Parnell Street! Meanwhile, the rest of you are absolutely oblivious to the fact that you actually have your own culture. Use it! Show it off for God's sake!

OPENROAD

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love Irish theme pubs, you can tell them, they have words like "Enjoy the Craic" written above the door and you can buy bad Beamish served by an Australian on a gap year.:D:rolleyes:

They are usually full of Americans

and have a bike in the window and road sign telling me how many miles it is to Galway:D

To be honest the best nights I have had out have actually been in English bars in London, was one pub I used to go to on a Saturday night, quality bitter, Frank Bruno look a like, ex army who used to play cds, people dancing on tables and the bar counter, encouraged by the staff, really friendly locals, pissed people with manners. Best night was few years ago, Ireland had beaten England in the rugby, full of England supporters, a bloke in an Irish top walks in, congragulated by the English lads all night,and finally the sight of England supporters dancing and singing The Irish rover.

OPENROAD

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

The idea of "British influence" in modern Ireland is absolutely negligible. The Irish are British. There is nothing that differentiates you from England, Scotland or Wales. Name one thing that makes Ireland different to the rest of the UK. Irish people are content with every aspect of British culture. The English language, literature, ideals, laws, sports and arts, these are all rooted deeply into Ireland and its people.

The only native culture in Ireland is Gaelic culture and there is very, very little of it left. The Irish lost their Brehon Laws, their language, literature, arts, music and sports, all in favour of the "British ways".


Have to say I agree with you.

bug

I always thought, and am probably wrong but..

I thought that Britannia was the Roman name given to the Island of Britain.
Hence recognising it as Britain recognises it as an entity inclusive of Scotland Wales etc.

United kingdom means technically the same thing, uniting each kingdom ie wales etc accepting that its a monarchial state.

Then us lot, the Irish, were included in that in the early 1800's as an add on.

Either way England recognises it more realistically. I keep having to reiterate that to my nordie other half who thinks he's from the UK in general conversation.

If someone could historically tell me where the "great" bit in great britain came from, that would be interesting. Or perhaps educmacate me further.

Cionnfhaolaidh

bug wrote: »

I always thought, and am probably wrong but..

I thought that Britannia was the Roman name given to the Island of Britain.

If someone could historically tell me where the "great" bit in great britain came from, that would be interesting. Or perhaps educmacate me further.

The ancient Greeks and Romans called the peoples of these Isles the "Britannic", referring to the majority Celtic peoples that inhabited both islands.

With the rise of English power in Britain, the term 'British' became synonymous with the English monarchy and its territory.

That's why many Irish people reject the term "British Isles" in relation to Ireland because it has political connotations.

"Great" Britain just means the greater (larger) of the British islands; Ireland being the the lesser island and Britain being the largest. "Great" does not mean better or grander.