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Lazy Teachers

dame

Hi folks,

What do you think of the fact that teachers are entitled to a week off for their wedding? I'm not joking, if a teacher gets married during the school year they are entitled to the week off, paid. Is this not taking the piss?

Also, I know of a teacher who took a week off to get laser eye treatment. Shouldn't she just have done this during the summer, or the Halloween week off, or waited until the three weeks off at Christmas, or even the Easter holidays??? (Some) Teachers are the laziest people in Ireland! They seem to have the weakest work ethic and strongest sense of entitlement I have ever come across outside of an umemployed person who has no intention of looking for work, ever.

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InFront

randylonghorn wrote: »

And ... OUCH, tbh! Now here I think we diverge fairly significantly. In my view, initial education should be about educating the person

Yes but that person needs to work somewhere in society, and that's a pretty huge part of what a teacher is paid to do.

A teacher's job is to teach English, Calculus, European Languages - skills that are valuable to an employer or a university. It is mainly a parent's and a family's job to mould the individual, I don't think school is the best place for that nor is it a challenge which is their place to seek - but it's a bit off topic.

No no no!
Open your mind. Look around! Don't be ignorant of the world around you! Find a passion, find yourself, know yourself and your gifts!

Well I'm fine, thanks, my point is just that those are not the things you want to hear from your Physics teacher. You want your physics teacher to help you get your best possible grade in Physics.

randylonghorn

InFront wrote: »

Yes but that person needs to work somewhere in society, and that's a pretty huge part of what a teacher is paid to do.

Yes and no (in my opinion, obviously!). Don't get me wrong, I of course agree with the education system preparing children for adult life, including employment ... I just don't agree with the priorities implicit in a statement such as ... "it's about educating the next generation of employees."

InFront wrote: »

It is mainly a parent's and a family's job to mould the individual

Here we agree, though the school has always been deemed (correctly, imo) to have a role to play in this as well. As an aside, I feel it very unfortunate that so many parents nowadays are quite prepared to, indeed determined to, surrender the prime role in socialising their children to the school, which is not equipped to and was never intended to have the primacy in this area.

However, if you glance back at my last post, I think you will notice that I cast my net much wider than simply "moulding the individual" ... in particular, I tried to stress the factors involved in "moulding the individual mind", if you like ... logic, critical thinking, analytical skills etc., etc. Actually, I would like to add communication skills and learning to learn to my previous list, if I may.

One could argue, of course (in fact, I personally would argue!) that these skills are very necessary preparation for employment as well as for life generally. Unfortunately, they are normally not high on the list when most people (and especially politicians!) speak of "education for employment".

Lord, but this thread has actually become interesting ... not to mention civil! :eek:

Catari Jaguar

InFront wrote: »

Well I'm fine, thanks, my point is just that those are not the things you want to hear from your Physics teacher. You want your physics teacher to help you get your best possible grade in Physics.

That "you" wasn't aimed at you, personally. Just you know, society.... What I hope for the children I educate in my lifetime to think someday...

I had an English teacher for my Leaving Cert who was the most inspirational woman I ever knew. She was so efficient and organised and she expected a high standard and we did it and I worked my ass off and LOVED the subject.

But that wasn't why she was so remarkable; she taught us about feminism and agendas of the media and how not to believe all we see/hear. She knew all about important world issues and injustices before they were highlighted in the world and before people jumped on the band wagon. And she'd tell us about amazing dramas, films, pieces of art and architecture we had to see in our lifetime and places to go, like Auschwitz... And she always said it like "when you get to X" not "IF you do." They weren't lectures just titbits added here and there.

She was great.

tallaght01

I don't know much about what teachers do. I do know that when I were a lad, we had 36 kids in my class. Secondary school had mebbe 32, but we were wild hormonal teenage boys in inner city dublin. It was a disaster zone. I would never have had the stomach to teach there for as long as some of our teachers did.
Loads of my teachers gave up time in the evenings/lunch hours to do various activities. We showed no gratitude at the time, coz we didn't understand the significance of what they were sacrificing in their private lives to do this. I doubt I'd even have considered that they were unpaid for this work.

This is all from the perspective of my experiences as a kid. I don't know any teachers socially. But I did bump into an old teacher a few years ago when I was at work. He was really so happy that I'd gotten into uni and graduated. He said that makes it all worthwhile. Fair play to him. He was genuinely over the moon for me.

It doesn't mean they're all great. But I'd say most of them are dedicated.

I also reckon that giving each teacher a solitary week off in their career to get married is a good sight cheaper than paying them for all the hours they actually put into their job out of hours.

But then again, everyone has an opinion. Everyone's an expert. I'm used to these arguments when doctors conditions come up in the media or wherever. Everyone knows if we're a waste of space/veal munching golf players/lifesaving gods etc.
Most of what I hear when the doctors situation is discussed is pure hogwash from people who have no idea about the job or the conditions.
I would imagine a lot of the comments about teachers and their conditions come from the same camp (and I include my own views in there).

Seth Brundle

InFront wrote: »

Teachers, and other publicly funded state employees need to be subject to performance testing, and under-performers should lose their jobs.

Ignoring "other publicly funded state employees" in this debate, how would you evaluate teacher performance?
Exam results isn't a useful indicator.

tallaght01

Performance indicators. there's another parallel between the teachers and the docs. People have been rattling on for years about evaluating doctors' perfomrances, but nobody has put forward any suggestions that even approach a sensible, practical method of doing so.

I firmly believe an across the board assessment of teachers' standards would be a very very difficult undertaking.

dame

kelle wrote: »

You changed your tune, Dame! You posted this a while back...

I was waiting for that!
However, doesn't change the fact that I think it's completely scabby for teachers to choose to take time off during the school year for unnecessary elective surgery (done only because of the teachers vanity) when they have 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 months of holidays, which in anybody's book is plenty of time to get something done.

As for the argument about it being cheaper to get married in November than July: get married during the Halloween break then, or Christmas, or Easter!

See teachers, I do actually understand your "issues". But, take note all of you. Your holidays are long enough. Fit anything that is not an absolute medical emergency into them.

Fast_Mover

Perhaps during the school calender is the only date/time they could get?

dame

It is possible to examine teachers performance (to a certain extent). It's not unheard of for people to fail their teaching practice during college or for them to have to repeat their Dip. On the other hand, there is a certain amount of positive discrimination (in favour of males (in primary teaching)), and negative behaviours are sometimes overlooked for certain individuals.

dame

Fast_Mover wrote: »

Perhaps during the school calender is the only date/time they could get?

No.

You Suck!

Meh, I don't nessisarily like the set up and that some teachers take the piss, on the other hand, the perks are small consilation for a job you can never advance significantly in.

But.....vote for me and I'll reabsorb teachers in to the civil service every summer

slumped

dame wrote: »

(Some) Teachers are the laziest people in Ireland! They seem to have the weakest work ethic and strongest sense of entitlement I have ever come across outside of an umemployed person who has no intention of looking for work, ever.

(Some) people that post here are arrogant fcukers who have no respect for the **** that (some) teachers have to put up with.

A teacher cannot take unpaid leave - unless they take at least one year.

I think it is more than fair that a teacher can take a week off to engage in what the constitution of the country places as being central to the family unit.

EDIT - I assume because I've put (some) words in brackets that not everyone will be offended.

Seth Brundle

dame wrote: »

No.

Is "no" all of your defence? Are you speaking for all teachers who did take time off during term when you say this? When did you poll all of these teachers and are the results available? If not then shut up!

slumped

kbannon wrote: »

Is "no" all of your defence? Are you speaking for all teachers who did take time off during term when you say this? When did you poll all of these teachers and are the results available? If not then shut up!

Here here.

I'd almost say that the OP was a troll except they have more posts than me!

dame

[QUOTE=slumped;54445565A teacher cannot take unpaid leave - unless they take at least one year.[/QUOTE]

They can actually. Think about it. Unpaid maternity leave and parental leave, same as the rest of the public sector. That's fine. It's for a significant period, and the class they teach will be taught for months at a stretch by a substitute teacher, thereby having continuity.

Tricity Bendix

I find it funny that when I talk to teachers in a non-confrontational way they usually tell me what a perk the hours and holidays are, and that I should consider teaching as a career. However, if I choose to adopt a more begrudging tone, I get given a laundry list of duties that impinges on their free time.

Practically everyone I know has to bring work home with them. Teachers aren't really unique in this regard.

dame

kbannon wrote: »

Is "no" all of your defence? Are you speaking for all teachers who did take time off during term when you say this? When did you poll all of these teachers and are the results available? If not then shut up!

No was all that was required as the question posed by the poster had already been answered earlier in the thread.

slumped

dame wrote: »

They can actually. Think about it. Unpaid maternity leave and parental leave, same as the rest of the public sector. That's fine. It's for a significant period, and the class they teach will be taught for months at a stretch by a substitute teacher, thereby having continuity.

No. You are not right. Well to clarify:

Primary teachers cannot take unpaid leave (except statutory) for less than 1 year and then it is at the discretion of the BOM

Why does it bother you so much that teachers can do this?

I suppose you are against the day everyone is entitled to for attending a graduation?

slumped

An average teacher will teach 1760 hours a year

An average 35 hour a week person will work 1670 hours a year

Why shouldn't teachers be given a 'perk' in having a week off for their wedding??

S

InFront

kbannon wrote: »

Ignoring "other publicly funded state employees" in this debate, how would you evaluate teacher performance?
Exam results isn't a useful indicator.

Of course not, or at least not alone.
I'm mainly talking about assessments of teaching ability by groups of teaching inspectors, ability to communicate and connect with students, clarity of instruction, participation in continued professional development, attendance, pupil feedback, and perhaps examination results could be looked at in the context of set targets appropriate to the pupils' abilities.

This isn't anything extraordinarily complicated, and although I agree with randylonghorn that there are concerns over the accuaracy of such assessments when one's job is on the line, in my opinion it's far better than the current situation which frankly does often entail a no-questions-asked approach to teaching.

InFront

slumped wrote: »

An average teacher will teach 1760 hours a year

Really? What is there, something like 42 weeks in the school year?

Thats 8.4 hrs/ day

The average teacher is teaching for almost 8 and a half hours in the day?

spurious

InFront wrote: »

Of course not, or at least not alone.
I'm mainly talking about assessments of teaching ability by groups of teaching inspectors, ability to communicate and connect with students, clarity of instruction, participation in continued professional development, attendance, pupil feedback, and perhaps examination results could be looked at in the context of set targets appropriate to the pupils' abilities.

All of the things you mention are covered in WSE.

InFront

I know, I have already acknowledged that in earlier posts; I just said that greater weight should be attached to such evaluations whereby people lose their jobs. I don't know any teachers who get very stressed about those evaluations.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

InFront wrote: »

Really? What is there, something like 42 weeks in the school year?

Thats 8.4 hrs/ day

The average teacher is teaching for almost 8 and a half hours in the day?

teaching, correcting homework, writing exams, correcting exams, planning field trips, etc etc etc.

rainbowtrout

InFront wrote: »

Really? What is there, something like 42 weeks in the school year?

Thats 8.4 hrs/ day

The average teacher is teaching for almost 8 and a half hours in the day?

The school year is 167 days of teaching, approximately 34 weeks. A teacher on full hours teaches 22 a week in the classroom. And that's what pay is based on. After that correcting, planning etc is up to themselves.

spurious

There are many people in teaching who shouldn't be. It was not their first choice and they spend their time unhappily clocking up the hours. They create skidmarks out the door at finishing time each day. They do not get involved in exam work, subject associations, curriculum development, inservice (unless they can get a day off because of it), boards of management, unions, anything.
Every school has people like that - perhaps every job has, I don't know.

I don't know how they do it - I can't see how their health would not suffer in the end.

InFront

Mordeth wrote: »

teaching, correcting homework, writing exams, correcting exams, planning field trips, etc etc etc.

Undoubtedly, I was just talking about the statement "An average teacher will teach 1760 hours a year"

Man I have to stop seeming like I've got a problem with teachers. I don't. I just think a teacher's influence on pupil success is often underestimated, and that the Government should, in its own interests, be doing the most it can to produce maximum benefit from its teachers and replacing those who are not performing.

slumped

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The school year is 167 days of teaching, approximately 34 weeks. A teacher on full hours teaches 22 a week in the classroom. And that's what pay is based on. After that correcting, planning etc is up to themselves.

OK - we need to clarify something - MY posts relate to PRIMARY

Primary School Teacher:

8am - 3pm (typically) which results in 7 hours teaching a day.

2 hours planning per day

4 Sundays for Communion Preparation (if involved)
10 BOM meetings after hours (if teachers rep/principal/VP)
2 Sundays for Confirmation
1 Open Day (Sunday)
1 Sports Day (Sunday)

There are 183 teaching days in the school year.

183 x (7 hours teaching + 2 hours prep per day) = 1647

Meetings/Communions etc. as above = 50

Preparation every weekend = 2 x 33 weekends = 66 hours

Add together: 1763 hours

Divide this by 48 and it works out at 36 hours per week.

So to sum up - Teachers at Primary level do as much work in their 'short' year as we do in our normal 35 hours a week job.

S

Fast_Mover

Primary school teachers also have to do parent teacher meetings before or after school hours or during their lunch break.

InFront

Primary teachers work from 8am now?
And two hours of prep work out of school, every single day?
And then they spend another two hours doing this on their weekends off?

I think teachers deserve whatever meagre pay they get, but for what happens in the classroom. I don't believe for a second that the above happens on any sort of regular basis with your average teacher, it just isn't very credible.