Tax question

eoghan104 · 16-10-2007 3:21pm

pok3rplaya wrote: »

Yes I suspect this is the case myself. Afaik though the way they decide on these issues is to make an example of someone and bring them to court and then that court case basically decides the fate of everyone else in a similar position to the defendant, presently and in the future.

I'd rather not be the example.

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

valor · 16-10-2007 3:22pm

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

Macspower · 16-10-2007 3:25pm

eoghan104 wrote: »

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

Thats great to hear eoghan... but if you answer this for me it would be even better... ok poker winnings are non taxable..... but if your a full time poker player with no other source of income are you still considered "self employed"? and have to make a return anyway with a nil liability?

Or am I considered unemployed in which case am I entitled to unemployment benefit?

Or none of the above?

Macspower · 16-10-2007 3:26pm

valor wrote: »

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

no but you prob are?

pok3rplaya · 16-10-2007 3:27pm

eoghan104 wrote: »

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

Thank you for responding. Two questions,

Are you able to provide a place where I can view evidence to this effect for myself?

Also could you tell me what my dealings with the revenue commission should be on a day to day basis then? I mean, do I have to declare income at all or should I have any dealings with them if they don't contact me first?

edit: what macspower asked.

pok3rplaya · 16-10-2007 3:30pm

valor wrote: »

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

lol

eoghan104 · 16-10-2007 3:53pm

Macspower wrote: »

Thats great to hear eoghan... but if you answer this for me it would be even better... ok poker winnings are non taxable..... but if your a full time poker player with no other source of income are you still considered "self employed"? and have to make a return anyway with a nil liability?

Or am I considered unemployed in which case am I entitled to unemployment benefit?

Or none of the above?

Paul,

If you are registered as self employed you will have to make a Tax Return as far as I know and just declare no income and therefore Nil Liability. You can also be deemed as unemployed as you have no income and are well within your rights to get social welfare if you so wish. The easiest thing to do is just to forget that you have Poker Income as it has absolutley no bearing on any tax issues you might have.

pok3rplayer,

What is your position at the moment? Are you in college? Are you in employment or are you just playing poker? If you are just playing poker and not registered for Income Tax as a sole trader then you do not need to have any dealings with revenue whatsoever. I cant find anything on the Revenue website (which is a piece of sh*t) so you would have to ring your local Tax office to ask.

I wouldnt be afraid to ring them either if you want re assurance as you are not liable to tax on poker winnings so dont be afraid of being made an example of.

I hope this helps.

Norwich Fan Rob · 16-10-2007 3:59pm

im a former accountant.
for the last year ive been a full time poker player.

poker income is NON taxable. this is not a grey area, it doesnt matter how much of your income in derived from poker.

poker players are considered unemployed, and can elect from unemployment benefit, i dont myself, but i know a few who do.

DeVore · 16-10-2007 4:04pm

Spare a thought for me....

I've got share holdings in Boards, a company that doesnt employ anyone and doesnt pay dividends. I dont work a regular job but don't sign on. I make money from poker and I also have done some PAYE work for *another* company I am a shareholder, invoicing them from a consulting vehicle (limited company) and along with all that being paid dividends from GJP.

I have my accountant on speed dial and he's demanding danger-money.

DeV.

okidoki987 · 16-10-2007 4:09pm

I've got share holdings in Boards and doesnt pay dividends

but will be floated for XXX million

Ollieboy · 16-10-2007 4:10pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote: »

im a former accountant.
for the last year ive been a full time poker player.

poker income is NON taxable. this is not a grey area, it doesnt matter how much of your income in derived from poker.

poker players are considered unemployed, and can elect from unemployment benefit, i dont myself, but i know a few who do.

Rob's totally correct here. Its totally non-taxable and is ring-fence from all other income or outgoing's etc. To be fair Max, I would get a new accountant has thats some rubbish he told you in relation to red flag and all.

As most people know I had a nice cash 2 years ago and was working as a Accountant at the time, I check this all out with revenue and a number of Accountants.

Example. if you win the lotto, you pay no tax. If you buy a house with the winnings, you get your house in the paper and a picture of your family. All winnings from gambling are tax free. This will not change either as its in the governments interest due to the horse industry to keep it this way. If poker was class as a game of skill the situation might change.

In the US winnings are taxable. 30% at source, but you can claim this back as a irish citizen. But they dont take players loss into account, which is pretty ****ty.

DeVore · 16-10-2007 4:27pm

okidoki987 wrote: »

but will be floated for XXX million

God that would be nice hahahaha.... but why would anyone buy the shares in it? anyway, thats off topic.

I would really like to float Boards for millions though. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

DeV.

DEEP THROAT · 16-10-2007 4:28pm

I think the problem the revenue would have in this case is that money appeared in your business account from another account you operate. This account will show that you cashed out from say pokerstars.

This looks like a very easy way to launder money.( from their point of view) Lodge €20k into an online poker account play €10 stts for a month win/lose €500 cash the money out to netteller transfer back to your bank account. Call it pokers winnings.

Will the revenue be demanding HH's in future to prove poker winnings:D:D

Share Price of PokerTracker just soared Every Accountant now needs one:D:D

Maybe the whole country should declare themselves as poker players and get our employers to transfer the money to our pokerstars account every pay day, or get employed by a boss who is 'crap' at poker, work for no cash for 40 hours and play heads up every friday afternoon for a grand:):):)

I know its a bit OTT but I think the revenue would have a problem disproving it:cool:

Taxipete29 · 16-10-2007 4:53pm

Macspower wrote: »

Thats great to hear eoghan... but if you answer this for me it would be even better... ok poker winnings are non taxable..... but if your a full time poker player with no other source of income are you still considered "self employed"? and have to make a return anyway with a nil liability?

Or am I considered unemployed in which case am I entitled to unemployment benefit?

Or none of the above?

You are only entitled to unemployment benefit if you are actively seeking work which I assume you are not and they do ask you to prove that you are
seeking work after about 6 months signing on.Aside from that if you were self employed previously I assume you werent paying PRSI so therefore wouldnt be entitled to it anyway

Macspower · 16-10-2007 5:05pm

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You are only entitled to unemployment benefit if you are actively seeking work which I assume you are not and they do ask you to prove that you are
seeking work after about 6 months signing on.Aside from that if you were self employed previously I assume you werent paying PRSI so therefore wouldnt be entitled to it anyway

Thanks guys... I have no great desire to sign on ...yet..... but yeah i was s/e for 7 years and made and paid tax returns.... but I dissolved my company last year and I applied for unemployment benefit but wasn't entitled to it as you say so I kind of ended up playing poker until I got a job and I'm still at it... no idea where I stand with the revenue now.... but wont be going looking for them either

MrPillowTalk · 16-10-2007 5:34pm

My accountants have advised me that poker income is non taxable, however they also said that the onus of proof is on you not the revenue, so keeping valid records is important, tbh I wouldnt put it past the revenue commisioners to classify poker site correspondance as an unreliable source and tax you on the income anyway but thats a whole other matter.

There is an interesting side to the idea of what happens if poker income becomes taxable. Lets say I make my annual return of income on 1st of January, its my understanding that I only have to be in negarive figures on that date in order to not have any tax liability. Lets say a mate of mine has a different return date, on the 31st of December I play him hu for all my yearly winnings to date and lose, pay no tax liability then play him again on the 2nd January and win it back. Rinse and repeat. Its because of things like that, that poker income will allways be very hard to tax. If it did happen I imagine it will be a system akin to placing a bet in a bookies whereby your initial stake or deposit will have a % deducted for tax at source, if I was a revenue commisioner thats how Id do it anyhow.

Finally to those who want information online about the tax system, forget about it, unless you have a law and accountancy background and are prepared to actually go through the relevant acts forensically. The revenue are deliberately vague about a lot of this material, just try and get a full set of the vrt rules from them its nigh on impossible.

As for Phantom Lords example of the getting your boss to play you hu for the grand, well that doesnt really work because of minimum wage laws, prsi and paye that would still be due on at least the minimum wage rate for every hour you work. Also Im pretty sure playing him hu for a grand would be classified as you getting paid 500 for your weeks work, the other 500 I dunno.

Im not an accountant the last couple of paragraphs are just my general thoughts on the subject.

donal66 · 16-10-2007 5:47pm

Im Studying taxation as one of my modules in college at the moment and this very topic came up last week.
Firstly the net gain/losse from a person's gambling hobby would come under the Capital Gain Part of the tax system (not income tax etc.)
Under current Irish Capital Gain Taxs laws there are a large number of exemptions for different reasons. A List of these include;

1. Annual exemption (€1,270)
2. Government securities
3. Non wasting chattels (proceeds < €2,540)
4. Charities
5. Woodlands
6. Gambling winnings
7. Life assurance pension funds
8. Wasting asset
9. Exempt Bodies
10. Miscellaneous: winnings from betting, lotteries, prize bonds

As someone already refered to the main reson why Gambling is considered as an exemption is because if it wasnt, a person would be intiltled to write off their gambling losses against their tax liablity for that year.

Ie., if i won €1,000 playing poker last year under a different system i could be taxed at 20% and owe the gov €200.
Under the same system however, if i had a bad year and lost €10,000 i could write a certain precentage of that off against my liablitly for that year.

This would all be very messy for the Gov to regulate and could infact result in a net loss for the Gov coffers if Irish ppl lost much more than they won in any given year. Hence the government take the easy option and just exclude all Gambling activites from the Irish tax system.

DEEP THROAT · 16-10-2007 5:47pm

What happens in Norway is you only get taxed on winnings when you cash out ( I think its 27%) and that is one of the reasons why the Norweigan big winners tend not to cash out and can sit in them limit games with Monster Stacks.

In reality poker will not be taxed in Ireland but they may start looking into the money laundering aspect (off shore bank accounts, did anyone say tribunal ) as it is wide open to abuse.

As for playing your boss on a friday it was meant to be tongue in cheek but there is nothing in this country to stop you helping a friend do something ( for 40 hrs) and him NOT to give you anything in return. You would have to be working in the black economy but at the end of the week if the money was coming out of a poker account you wouldn't have to elaborate any further...

ArmaniJeanss · 16-10-2007 6:04pm

donal66 wrote: »

As someone already refered to the main reson why Gambling is considered as an exemption is because if it wasnt, a person would be intiltled to write off their gambling losses against their tax liablity for that year.

i've heard this said a few times. Is it really that simple? I'd have thought it would only take minor legislation to make profit taxeable, but losses not write-offable.
How does it work in the US?

MrPillowTalk · 16-10-2007 6:18pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

i've heard this said a few times. Is it really that simple? I'd have thought it would only take minor legislation to make profit taxeable, but losses not write-offable.
How does it work in the US?

Your right there is a few easy ways around this if the Govt chose to tax poker income. They could quite easily class it as unearned income similar to the way in which profits from property companies are taxed.

Macspower · 16-10-2007 6:22pm

if it became as simple as tax profits write off losses it would be open to huge abuse..... high earners would be loosing to friends overseas a lot!! alos juts before the end of the tax year your whole BR HU in a moment of tilt to an overseas friend

pok3rplaya · 16-10-2007 8:43pm

OK thank you to ollie, eoghan, donal and NFR. I think they are the most definitive answers I've seen yet concerning the subject. Even still I'm going to get in touch with the local tax office and ask them what the story is but I'm 99.999999 sure that I'm on the level now.

ty all.

Macspower · 16-10-2007 9:43pm

pok3rplaya wrote: »

OK thank you to ollie, eoghan, donal and NFR. I think they are the most definitive answers I've seen yet concerning the subject. Even still I'm going to get in touch with the local tax office and ask them what the story is but I'm 99.999999 sure that I'm on the level now.

ty all.

if/when you get an answer will you let us know? here or via pm thanks.

pok3rplaya · 16-10-2007 10:10pm

ya no prob

jem · 16-10-2007 10:33pm

pok3rplaya wrote: »

OK thank you to ollie, eoghan, donal and NFR. I think they are the most definitive answers I've seen yet concerning the subject. Even still I'm going to get in touch with the local tax office and ask them what the story is but I'm 99.999999 sure that I'm on the level now.

ty all.

the likely hood of geting a proper answer is slim and to get a difinitive answer you will have to go quite high inthe revenue ladder. this might just open the whole can of worms.
As a practicing accountant my advise would be as follows:
keep as accurate records as you can lodgment/withdrawl details etc.
at present the situation is that it is not taxable but I wouldn't rule out a witholding/dirt type tax comming in at some time in the future.Again keep records to prove its from poker and not some other form of income, lodg the money into an acount other than your main buisness account.
j

NickyOD · 16-10-2007 10:48pm

Mr.Plough wrote: »

hmmm. so isnt it better that that they didnt prove poker was a game of skill?

if they did then surely we would all have to start paying tax?

Sshhhh! We're all degenerate gamblers and that's final. Some degenerate gamblers are just lucky every week and lodge their winning into their bank accounts on a regular basis, but yes poker is a 100% gamble.

Regarding the unemployment benefit issue. I have never claimed from the state but when you do I have a question. Does the government have access to your account information, including all your income?

Macspower · 16-10-2007 11:07pm

depends on what benefit your looking for... unemployment benefit is claiming off your stamps and is not means tested... where unemployment assistance is means tested.. and although they dont have access it's your duty to disclose any assets you might have... if you have a few bob in the bank they will tell you to use that and come abck when it's gone...

NickyOD wrote: »

Sshhhh! We're all degenerate gamblers and that's final. Some degenerate gamblers are just lucky every week and lodge their winning into their bank accounts on a regular basis, but yes poker is a 100% gamble.

Regarding the unemployment benefit issue. I have never claimed from the state but when you do I have a question. Does the government have access to your account information, including all your income?

nicnicnic · 16-10-2007 11:40pm

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

There is an interesting side to the idea of what happens if poker income becomes taxable. Lets say I make my annual return of income on 1st of January, its my understanding that I only have to be in negarive figures on that date in order to not have any tax liability. Lets say a mate of mine has a different return date, on the 31st of December I play him hu for all my yearly winnings to date and lose, pay no tax liability then play him again on the 2nd January and win it back. Rinse and repeat.
.

I dumped a friend $1k HU on billhill 18 months ago; both accounts still closed, if it happens avoid this advice

MrPillowTalk · 16-10-2007 11:52pm

nicnicnic wrote: »

I dumped a friend $1k HU on billhill 18 months ago; both accounts still closed, if it happens avoid this advice

There are obv ways to do it where it isnt chip dumping Nicky, pretty silly to think otherwise.

hotspur · 17-10-2007 12:14am

Gambling was taxed here for years as most of us remember. You could choose to pay tax on your winnings or tax on your bet, everybody chose to pay the tax on their bet. The % used to be in the 20's in the 80's and was gradually cut.

When offshore betting became popular and the Interweb was invented by Nobel prize winning truthteller Al Gore betting taxes had to be reduced as a supply side strategy to try to prevent punters from gambling with offshore firms and so maintain gambling tax revenue. It got chopped so low that when it hit 1% bookies said 'sod it we'll pay it for the punter'.

All this time I think it was technically the case that your gambling winnings were always taxable, but that people paid taxes on their stake instead. Since casino gambling was never legalised, and with the exception of the National Lottery and charities / small funfair crap, lotteries were illegal there were no other forms of gambling to be taxed.

So as far as I can tell (and I'm not an accountant, unlike everyone else on this forum it seems) it was never strictly the case that gambling winnings were not taxable as such. But this has bugger all to do with income tax, and I have no idea when something becomes income tax (by virtue of the fact you do sod all else?).

With the current no tax system we seem to have for our gambling here I think professional gamblers *should* pay taxes. They use roads and hospitals as much as plumbers. The getting to write off losses thing still seems to work in America and elsewhere. Tax avoidance shenanigans is hardly confined to professional gamblers ('40 year, zitto zitto').

Doyle Brunson's number one advice to American poker pros is that you cannot accumulate wealth without paying your taxes correctly!

RoundTower · 17-10-2007 8:07am

a question for all you accountants:

every year so far I've filed as self employed, reported some income and paid PRSI. I had a couple of income streams other than poker, and I felt it was a good idea to make a PRSI contribution and get the benefits down the road. I don't think I've paid any income tax, maybe a few hundred.

Next year (when I pay taxes for this year) I'll have given some coaching and received some coaching. If my poker income was taxable I figure I could deduct coaching received as expenses. However, since I'm not reporting poker income, can I deduct the coaching expenses from the coaching income?

eoghan104 · 17-10-2007 8:13am

RoundTower wrote: »

a question for all you accountants:

every year so far I've filed as self employed, reported some income and paid PRSI. I had a couple of income streams other than poker, and I felt it was a good idea to make a PRSI contribution and get the benefits down the road. I don't think I've paid any income tax, maybe a few hundred.

Next year (when I pay taxes for this year) I'll have given some coaching and received some coaching. If my poker income was taxable I figure I could deduct coaching received as expenses. However, since I'm not reporting poker income, can I deduct the coaching expenses from the coaching income?

If you are going to declare the coaching Income as Income then yes any expenses can be claimed against it.

CelticPhantom · 17-10-2007 8:52am

Slightly OT.

Suppose I find someone who is silly enough to wager his house/car in a poker game. If I call his bet and win, do I have to pay Capital Gains Tax? (Assume proper paper work completed for the transfer)

Will the win be considered a "gift" and be taxed that way?

Mellor · 17-10-2007 8:57am

After the win, formally buy the house for €1, and pay your 9% stamp duty on that

Ste05 · 17-10-2007 9:06am

Here's another question for the many accountants we have.

Where does rakeback come into this whole equation, for some people RB can add up to quite a sizeable sum every month and year, can it technically be regarded as Gambling Winnings, or is it just a case that once it's cashed out from the same account then it can be shown as Poker winnings??

It's probably a huge can of worms but thought I'd see what people say.

I'm also adding this thread to the sticky for future reference.

eoghan104 · 17-10-2007 9:17am

Ste05 wrote: »

Here's another question for the many accountants we have.

Where does rakeback come into this whole equation, for some people RB can add up to quite a sizeable sum every month and year, can it technically be regarded as Gambling Winnings, or is it just a case that once it's cashed out from the same account then it can be shown as Poker winnings??

It's probably a huge can of worms but thought I'd see what people say.

I'm also adding this thread to the sticky for future reference.

You Pay the rake in the first place so its just like getting a refund so there is no Tax issue there.

Glowingmind · 17-10-2007 9:31am

Just curious, have any of you had the revenue come asking about the money going into your account?

I've made a few large cash deposits (large in the sense that they were around the same size as what i earn in a month in my job) to my current account this year.

Should i have gotten receipts?

Or should i just be able to prove that i'm donking off all that money online?

Script no more · 22-10-2007 2:42pm

Casino's profits are taxed as are any ltd company or sole trader, I do agree however that a license fee and gambling tax like the bookies is needed. I own 2 casinos, Wicklow and Athy (open in few weeks) and I've had a number of meetings with the government and they just don't know how to deal with it. They are very interested in making it a taxable income due to the amount of so called '' pro '' poker players in Ireland. Sorry but its on its way

valor · 22-10-2007 2:51pm

**** That

hotspur · 22-10-2007 3:56pm

Script no more wrote: »

Casino's profits are taxed as are any ltd company or sole trader, I do agree however that a license fee and gambling tax like the bookies is needed. I own 2 casinos, Wicklow and Athy (open in few weeks) and I've had a number of meetings with the government and they just don't know how to deal with it. They are very interested in making it a taxable income due to the amount of so called '' pro '' poker players in Ireland. Sorry but its on its way

I highly doubt that taxing poker players is on the way. I think you are confusing this with the licensing regime for casinos that's on the way.

valor · 22-10-2007 4:07pm

he better be otherwise i am moving to guatemala or w/e

Van Dice · 22-10-2007 4:25pm

valor wrote: »

he better be otherwise i am moving to guatemala or w/e

+1

jem · 22-10-2007 6:28pm

eoghan104 wrote: »

You Pay the rake in the first place so its just like getting a refund so there is no Tax issue there.

i agree, effectivly it is a discount.

Norwich Fan Rob · 22-10-2007 9:54pm

yeah, i would also be moving somewhere sunny, with nice golf courses, and no tax........

MrPillowTalk · 22-10-2007 10:01pm

Why so against paying tax, we all use roads, health system etc etc is there a reason I cant think of that poker players shouldnt pay their way?

Personally I dont think they will introduce income tax for poker players due to the difficulties in assessment however in principle I dont see why they shouldnt.

Goodluck2me · 22-10-2007 10:02pm

valor wrote: »

he better be otherwise i am moving to guatemala or w/e

Dotsy too?

Macspower · 22-10-2007 10:50pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

Dotsy too?

Playboys of the pokerplayer mansion??

nice idea

Mellor · 22-10-2007 11:02pm

I don't think poker will become taxable. People are concentration on this like there are alot of players making alot and it makes sense to tax it. But what about players that are losing? If they tax winning players on profit from poker, losing players will be able to write off loses. And poker players lose money on average. So this probably wouldn't be a great move on the revenues behalf.

It makes more sense having no tax on poker, therefore having more players playing the game, and higher profits for the casinos, and more tax for the revenue from tax on the casinos profits.

phantom_lord · 22-10-2007 11:06pm

Mellor wrote: »

losing players will be able to write off loses.

against what?

Goodluck2me · 22-10-2007 11:22pm

phantom_lord wrote: »

against what?

following years wins, provided a big donkament win etc... they could ringfence cash though which would be bad.

Tax question

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