Tax question

pigeonbutler

Unsure about what was said about income from CFD's being tax-free, that's quite baffling.
From my memory of studying tax just a few months ago the exemption on gambling income was worded as "income from casual gambling". I always assumed that meant that betting on horses on Saturdays and having a few big wins would be tax free, whereas being a bookmaker one's income would certainly not be exempt from income tax.

My (fairly unlearned) opinion (ask me again in 4 years time when I've passed ACA and ITI exams!) would be that there is no definitive answer as to whether a person whose primary income was earned from regular (their "days work") poker playing was liable to income tax. The legislation and case law of old refers to "casual gambling income" and is of a time when people bet on horses and dogs and couldn't expect long term +EV and so didn't envisage professional poker play.

Therefore I'd think that this ambigous situation will remain until someone reports a major income derived from poker (upwards of €250k per annum for a number of years) and claims it to be exempt from income tax. At that juncture the revenue may challenge this exemption and it will be left to the courts to decide what the position is. Even if the courts find in favour of the poker players the joy may be shortlived as it is common for interpretations of tax law that revenue finds unfavourable to be made redundant by new watertight provisions in the following Finance Act!!

Macspower

In this country I always found that your no allowed to be doing nothing.... ie your employed/self employed or unemployed. I had terrible trouble a few years ago after a year of not working.. I didn't sign on and I wasn't in prison(only other option on the form). They couldn't accept that I wasn't working or signing on....... I took a year off to build my house but that was unacceptable to them....

Mac

robinlacey

why would you report your income if it wasn't taxable?

i haven't had any contact with anyone to do with tax since i left my last job a few years ago,and i certainly don't have an accountant,is this ok?

kpnuts

robinlacey wrote:

why would you report your income if it wasn't taxable?

i haven't had any contact with anyone to do with tax since i left my last job a few years ago,and i certainly don't have an accountant,is this ok?

Same as that, Robin. I researched it at the time I was quitting work and as far as I am aware, pro card players have zero tax liability.

eggie

Even though it may not be taxable as such, I would keep records of the income nonetheless, cause if the taxman asks and you cant prove where it came from he can still assess you for a liability to tax should he believe it is warranted.

robinlacey

eggie wrote:

Even though it may not be taxable as such, I would keep records of the income nonetheless, cause if the taxman asks and you cant prove where it came from he can still assess you for a liability to tax should he believe it is warranted.

what do you mean by keeping records?
all the money that has gone into my bank account is transfers from poker sites,i don't have records as such but i've never deleted emails from the sites so i presume i could use those as records?

eggie

robinlacey wrote:

what do you mean by keeping records?
all the money that has gone into my bank account is transfers from poker sites,i don't have records as such but i've never deleted emails from the sites so i presume i could use those as records?

E-mails, records of transfers, deposits & withdrawals, etc would be sufficient.
It would do no harm to keep a folder, with hard copies (even in chronological order if you wanted:D ) for peace of mind. You might never need to fall back on them but it would be prudent to do so.

pigeonbutler

Eggie is spot on. Keeping records is still a legal requirement as it is dodgy territory to have large unexplained amounts of income. A good example is the Horse racing Industry where income from Stud farming is exempt from income tax, however the law requires stud farmers to declare their income none the less. Ditto for musicians, painters, novelists, etc. that are claiming the artists exemption.

Killme00

pigeonbutler wrote:

Eggie is spot on. Keeping records is still a legal requirement as it is dodgy territory to have large unexplained amounts of income. A good example is the Horse racing Industry where income from Stud farming is exempt from income tax, however the law requires stud farmers to declare their income none the less. Ditto for musicians, painters, novelists, etc. that are claiming the artists exemption.

Keeping records of income is advisable but not a requirement. It is advisable if the revenue decide to inspect your earning but in that case the burden of proof is with them, not with you. The would need to prove your income is not from poker and not you prove that it does.

eggie

The taxman does not need to prove where your income derived from, but merely reasonbale doubt in the absence of provision of records by the subject being assessed. If this wasnt the case, tax default, money laundering, etc would be so much easier.

ZZR1100

MacStacked wrote:

From what I am aware this is untrue. I spoke with a very senior accountant last week and we spoke about this specifically for a period. To quote him exactly "if you were to claim poker earnings as your sole source of income for an entire year it would not be tax free..no way."

i got this from my accountant too. he first thought poker earnings were taxable but after enquiring with the tax office he changed his mind.
the problem is, whether you are casual or pro is if revenue try to tax your earnings from poker, you ae also entitled to offset your losses against your earnings. If your losses outweigh your earnings then they owe you money.
thats a can of worms they dont want to mess with.
as far as bookies go . they never lose long term -- every1 knows that

Macspower

real CAN O'WORMS i opened... but I think it's important to discuss nevertheless..

Mac

Ste05

We have similar threads periodically. I think it was just about the right time for another. Although the Sole income angle is a new one, and an entry by gabhain7 on the subject has to be welcomed.

So I'll give this thread an A+, good job Mac

MrPillowTalk

Its important if your making a considerable sum from poker to keep records so you can prove that the money is derived from poker.

Also dont think that neteller lodgements will be accepted as proof, in the eyes of a revenue inspector doing an audit neteller will just appear to be an off shore bank account, hence its important to keep emails etc from poker sites as you withdraw to neteller.

Let me explain when it would become most relevant, say you earn enough from poker to buy a House/apt etc and choose to do so. If it happens to come to the revenues attention that x hasnt been in employment for y no of years but has just purchased a house paying a considerable balance of the purchase monies without borrowing for them, then you can be sure x will be selected for an audit of some kind.

Having been audited a number of times in different businesses let me tell you this, even when everthing is in order and nothing is dodgy the revenue knocking on your door is just bound to cost you money somewhere, and they are ruthless, I wouldnt like to have no records and try to justify a lump of cash sitting in my account.

dK1NG

gabhain7 wrote:

According to Graham v. Green (Inspector of Taxes) [1925] All E.R. Rep. 690; 9 Tax Cas. 309. gambling winnings are not taxable, even if sole source of income:

thats an English precedent tho - have hte Irish courts made any ruling on this?

Killme00 wrote:

Keeping records of income is advisable but not a requirement. It is advisable if the revenue decide to inspect your earning but in that case the burden of proof is with them, not with you. The would need to prove your income is not from poker and not you prove that it does.

eggie wrote:

The taxman does not need to prove where your income derived from, but merely reasonbale doubt in the absence of provision of records by the subject being assessed. If this wasnt the case, tax default, money laundering, etc would be so much easier.

would this not come within the 'peculiar knowledge' principle? as such, you would have to prove where it came from, as opposed to the burden being on them.

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Its important if your making a considerable sum from poker to keep records so you can prove that the money is derived from poker.
...
Let me explain when it would become most relevant, say you earn enough from poker to buy a House/apt etc and choose to do so. If it happens to come to the revenues attention that x hasnt been in employment for y no of years but has just purchased a house paying a considerable balance of the purchase monies without borrowing for them, then you can be sure x will be selected for an audit of some kind.

if that happens, CAB turn up on your doorstep, and next thing you know - you're bending over and touching your toes. . . . . . . :eek:

pok3rplaya

Sorry to bump this stuff again as I know it's been discussed a lot.

However, I've read a few threads on the matter now and I've been trying to do my own research but I still haven't found what I wauld call a difinitive answer on the matter.

From reading this thread I'm pretty confident that poker winnings are non taxable but since this will be my first year as a professional (non student) player I really want to be 100% sure. I've tried to searching the revenue website for answers (there search function is balls btw) but to no avail. I was about to contact them to ask for myself but I am reluctant to do this for obvious reasons incase it turns out that we are somehow wrong and I get my ass audited.

So is there anyone out there who can point out to me some sort of official webpage which has the difinitive stance of the Irish Revenue Comission as I can't seem to find it anywhere. I mean surely there must be some place that has a list of non taxable incomes? If not, I'm also interested to know who I should approach for answers on the matter? I want to put this issue to bed.

Macspower

Jeez I thought I had got the lid back on this Cano'worms :rolleyes:

But it is important to discuss and still opinions vary... at the time I was self employed wih my own business and in that year I had withdrawn 28k from neteller to my business account. In the end it wasn't included as income but they did need to "explain it" and simply put it in as extra capital from personal resources...... don't know if this was the right course of action...

spoke to my accountant about it at length and he advised on a seperate account for poker.....

I was telling him that I was now playing full time and asked if he was sure I had no tax liability.... he said he wasn't sure but the last thing he wanted to do was to phone the revenue and ask them... he said that winnings from gambling were tax free but he wondered what would happen if you decided to buy a home from your poker winnings and that it would surely raise a red flag.... everyone in this countryis supposed to be either of 4 things.
a) employed and in the PAYE system
b) self employed and making tax returns every year
c) unemployed and claiming allowance
d) in full time education

not much room outside this? wonder should I sign on the dole :rolleyes:


I have still to get a definitave answer on this

ArmaniJeanss

I'd guess that the Revenue themselves don't yet know whether it is taxable or not.
My understanding of how they operate (I have a friend who is a RevenueCommissioner) is that a lot of the time they don't know whether something is taxable or not, and its only when they consider the amount to be large enough that they go to the expense of investigating and getting a definitive answer one way or the other.

pok3rplaya

Macspower wrote: »

spoke to my accountant about it at length and he advised on a seperate account for poker.....

Separate from what, the account that your salary is paid into?

Macspower wrote: »

he said he wasn't sure but the last thing he wanted to do was to phone the revenue and ask them... he said that winnings from gambling were tax free but he wondered what would happen if you decided to buy a home from your poker winnings

I've thought of this. Can I not just hire an accountant to ring the tax office and inquire without implicating me? All he has to do is pretend he is personally curious.

Yes I'm sure it would look super suspicious if I was to buy a house after being non-existent in the tax system for a year or two. However, if I am completely above board etc. then I don't really have anything to worry about right? I might get audited or whatever but if I'm legit then what is the worry?

pok3rplaya

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd guess that the Revenue themselves don't yet know whether it is taxable or not.
My understanding of how they operate (I have a friend who is a RevenueCommissioner) is that a lot of the time they don't know whether something is taxable or not, and its only when they consider the amount to be large enough that they go to the expense of investigating and getting a definitive answer one way or the other.

Yes I suspect this is the case myself. Afaik though the way they decide on these issues is to make an example of someone and bring them to court and then that court case basically decides the fate of everyone else in a similar position to the defendant, presently and in the future.

I'd rather not be the example.

eoghan104

pok3rplaya wrote: »

Yes I suspect this is the case myself. Afaik though the way they decide on these issues is to make an example of someone and bring them to court and then that court case basically decides the fate of everyone else in a similar position to the defendant, presently and in the future.

I'd rather not be the example.

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

valor

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

Macspower

eoghan104 wrote: »

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

Thats great to hear eoghan... but if you answer this for me it would be even better... ok poker winnings are non taxable..... but if your a full time poker player with no other source of income are you still considered "self employed"? and have to make a return anyway with a nil liability?

Or am I considered unemployed in which case am I entitled to unemployment benefit?

Or none of the above?

Macspower

valor wrote: »

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

no but you prob are?

pok3rplaya

eoghan104 wrote: »

Poker winnings are 100% non taxable. Im am 110% sure of this. Im an accountant and its been disscused in the office before.

Thank you for responding. Two questions,

Are you able to provide a place where I can view evidence to this effect for myself?

Also could you tell me what my dealings with the revenue commission should be on a day to day basis then? I mean, do I have to declare income at all or should I have any dealings with them if they don't contact me first?

edit: what macspower asked.

pok3rplaya

valor wrote: »

Dont worry your not making enough for them to be making an example of ;p

lol

eoghan104

Macspower wrote: »

Thats great to hear eoghan... but if you answer this for me it would be even better... ok poker winnings are non taxable..... but if your a full time poker player with no other source of income are you still considered "self employed"? and have to make a return anyway with a nil liability?

Or am I considered unemployed in which case am I entitled to unemployment benefit?

Or none of the above?

Paul,

If you are registered as self employed you will have to make a Tax Return as far as I know and just declare no income and therefore Nil Liability. You can also be deemed as unemployed as you have no income and are well within your rights to get social welfare if you so wish. The easiest thing to do is just to forget that you have Poker Income as it has absolutley no bearing on any tax issues you might have.

pok3rplayer,

What is your position at the moment? Are you in college? Are you in employment or are you just playing poker? If you are just playing poker and not registered for Income Tax as a sole trader then you do not need to have any dealings with revenue whatsoever. I cant find anything on the Revenue website (which is a piece of sh*t) so you would have to ring your local Tax office to ask.

I wouldnt be afraid to ring them either if you want re assurance as you are not liable to tax on poker winnings so dont be afraid of being made an example of.

I hope this helps.

Norwich Fan Rob

im a former accountant.
for the last year ive been a full time poker player.

poker income is NON taxable. this is not a grey area, it doesnt matter how much of your income in derived from poker.

poker players are considered unemployed, and can elect from unemployment benefit, i dont myself, but i know a few who do.

DeVore

Spare a thought for me....

I've got share holdings in Boards, a company that doesnt employ anyone and doesnt pay dividends. I dont work a regular job but don't sign on. I make money from poker and I also have done some PAYE work for *another* company I am a shareholder, invoicing them from a consulting vehicle (limited company) and along with all that being paid dividends from GJP.

I have my accountant on speed dial and he's demanding danger-money.

DeV.

okidoki987

I've got share holdings in Boards and doesnt pay dividends

but will be floated for XXX million