Lydia Foy, he-she: had privacy breached because her birth-cert says she's a dude

Dave! · 19-10-2007 05:58PM #1

Hey folks,

I fully support the boards.ie After Hours Regeneration Scheme, and so I'm doing what I can to enhance the content of said forum. I think it's entirely appropriate, therefore, to discuss this landmark High Court ruling.

By way of background, I'll copy and paste a bit from an article....

Dr Lydia Foy, a dentist from Kildare was born a male but underwent a sex change operation in 1992.

Ms Foy started legal proceedings to have her new gender recognised on her birth cert but in 2002 the High Court refused her application to have her birth cert altered.

Lydia Foy took fresh proceedings looking for a new birth cert and a declaration that the birth cert system here is incompatible with the convention if it prevents her registration as a female.

And now today there has been a ruling...

Today Mr Justice McKechnie said he hadn't the power to guarantee her a new birth cert but he did say that the birth cert system constitutes a breach of her right to privacy under the convention.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/state-found-to-be-in-breach-of-european-convention-in-regard-to-sex-change-law-1200106.html

So I'm looking for opinions on this

Personally I don't feel too strongly about it... I mean, at the end of the day I don't forsee it leading to many problems down the line. But at the same time, I can't help but think it's ridiculous to expect a historical document, as the birth cert is, to be changed retrospectively. Dr Foy was born a dude, and no amount of revisionism changes that.

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

But the High Court has ruled, and apparantly we are one of only 2 EU countries that does not cater for transgender people.

As I say, I don't really care, it just seems silly. But if it makes Dr Foy happy, meh.

Tigger · 19-10-2007 06:01PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

Hey folks,

I fully support the boards.ie After Hours Regeneration Scheme, and so I'm doing what I can to enhance the content of said forum. I think it's entirely appropriate, therefore, to discuss this landmark High Court ruling.

By way of background, I'll copy and paste a bit from an article....

Dr Lydia Foy, a dentist from Kildare was born a male but underwent a sex change operation in 1992.

Ms Foy started legal proceedings to have her new gender recognised on her birth cert but in 2002 the High Court refused her application to have her birth cert altered.

Lydia Foy took fresh proceedings looking for a new birth cert and a declaration that the birth cert system here is incompatible with the convention if it prevents her registration as a female.

And now today there has been a ruling...

Today Mr Justice McKechnie said he hadn't the power to guarantee her a new birth cert but he did say that the birth cert system constitutes a breach of her right to privacy under the convention.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/state-found-to-be-in-breach-of-european-convention-in-regard-to-sex-change-law-1200106.html

So I'm looking for opinions on this

Personally I don't feel too strongly about it... I mean, at the end of the day I don't forsee it leading to many problems down the line. But at the same time, I can't help but think it's ridiculous to expect a historical document, as the birth cert is, to be changed retrospectively. Dr Foy was born a dude, and no amount of revisionism changes that.

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

But the High Court has ruled, and apparantly we are one of only 2 EU countries that does not cater for transgender people.

As I say, I don't really care, it just seems silly. But if it makes Dr Foy happy, meh.

if i change my name and have surgery to look younger can i have a new birth cert

it'd be handy cos of the penaty points

Cuddlesworth · 19-10-2007 06:02PM

Hmm, this might open up an avenue to having my religion put down as a Jedi on my birth cert.

Karl Hungus · 19-10-2007 06:04PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

Tigger · 19-10-2007 06:13PM

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

but did the person in question have female brain chemistry
do they now

where is this brain chemistry
can we see it

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

he's got feet

osteriches have feet

Hagar · 19-10-2007 06:17PM

rbd wrote: »

where is this brain chemistry
can we see it

I think seeing his little willie was the give away...

Terry · 19-10-2007 06:28PM

Y chromosome.
That is all.

Tigger · 19-10-2007 06:31PM

Terry wrote: »

Y chromosome.
That is all.

not really gonna give the female brain chemistry thing much of a go the old y chromo is it

Time Magazine · 19-10-2007 06:33PM

Also fathered children!

I'm undecided about this case, though.

thefinalstage · 19-10-2007 06:49PM

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

They could think that they should have been born ostriches and than get an operation to look like one. Some people think that they should have been born wolves (and live like them) why not ostriches?

MooseJam · 19-10-2007 06:52PM

transgendered are ugly as sin

Reku · 19-10-2007 07:38PM

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

He was born male, he can consider himself a woman as much as he wants, fact is he is genetically male and was born male. You cannot change the past regardless of what you may do in the here and now.
If you want to go down the route of male vs. female minds should we all be subjected to testing for such? Many females in the physics and engineering fields for example show as having male minds, should they be required to consider themselves male just because a few people are unhappy with their lives and want the world to change for them?!?:mad:

Should people who take anti-aging products & have cosmetic surgery be allowed demand that their date of birth on their birth certs be changed to reflect their supposedly younger bodies?
What about these people;
Jocelyn Wildenstein
Dennis Avner
Erik Sprague

etc... should they not be allowed to have their birth certs altered to declare they were born as kittens, etc...?
IMO the courts should have told him to go away and stop wasting court time.
I'd rather not consider myself human (lets face it we're nothing to be proud of), should I be allowed get heavy modding and to demand that my birth cert. be altered to indicate that I am not human?

More to the point how the heck is the presence of the person's true gender on their birth cert. a prevention to the right to privacy, it's not like just march into government offices and pull the birth certs. of anyone I feel like without knowing the name on the birth certs. so short of them being told the person's birthname they won't be able to find out.

Then there's the whole can of worms regarding transgendered becoming romantically/sexually involved with people without informing them of their transgendered nature, which in this day and age is potentially something they could be sued over when the other person finds out.

Terry · 19-10-2007 08:10PM

I want to be a Jew-fin.

Rebeller · 19-10-2007 08:24PM

farohar wrote: »

More to the point how the heck is the presence of the person's true gender on their birth cert. a prevention to the right to privacy, it's not like just march into government offices and pull the birth certs. of anyone I feel like without knowing the name on the birth certs. so short of them being told the person's birthname they won't be able to find out.

From a legal standpoint the right to privacy is not just about "keeping things private" and preventing people knowing things about other people, it concerns the belief that certain aspects of an individual's life should not be subject to regulation or interference by the state or legislature. In other words, while the state is free to set down rules telling people that they must pay tax, obey speed limits, not steal etc etc. it has no right to dictate how people should act in the privacy of their own homes.

I suppose you could see the right to privacy as a necessary corollary of the belief that we should be free to think or act in whatever way we wish provided we do not interfere with the rights of others.

19-10-2007 08:26PM

farohar wrote: »

If you want to go down the route of male vs. female minds should we all be subjected to testing for such? Many females in the physics and engineering fields for example show as having male minds, should they be required to consider themselves male just because a few people are unhappy with their lives and want the world to change for them?!?:mad:

So because I as female can add you consider me to have a male brain.
And Lydia Foy is going to force the goverment to out me, and turn me into a lesbian..........OoKAY ~smiles and slowly backs out the door and away from the nutter~

Reku · 19-10-2007 08:37PM

Moonbaby wrote: »

So because I as female can add you consider me to have a male brain.
And Lydia Foy is going to force the goverment to out me, and turn me into a lesbian..........OoKAY ~smiles and slowly backs out the door and away from the nutter~

No, there is considered to be certain traits that mark brains as male/female, MOST women in the physics and engineering fields test as having male brains, it has nothing to do with simple arithmatic ability, there are many factors such as spatial reasoning, pattern recognition, empathy, mechanical reasoning, etc...
I know the PC brigade & the more poorly educated/dillusional feminists will be up in arms over this but simple fact is that male and female brains do not work the same way and as a result the two genders have tendencies towards strengths in different educational fields from one another.

Manic Moran · 19-10-2007 08:43PM

Just how far back in the historical records is she looking to go? Should she get a new Leaving Cert with her new female name on it? How about the effect on private entities, does her bank need to go back over all its forms and records (at their expense, no doubt) to change any references from "male" to "female" and change all names?

Sounds like a very dodgy road to me. She should be provided with an official document such as an annex to the birth cert explaining the situation. This is much like my military record: I got a DD214 on release from active service. If there were any mistakes made, I do not receive a new DD214, they give me a DD215 with the changes listed on it to be shown in conjunction with the original historical document.

NTM

DonJose · 19-10-2007 08:49PM

OMG thanks Lydia Foy, you just put me off transexuals, gotta go and vomit now.

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000d58710dr.jpg

Dave! · 19-10-2007 08:52PM

DonJose wrote: »

OMG thanks Lydia Foy, you just put me off transexuals, gotta go and vomit now.

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000d58710dr.jpg

Was your Thai bride better looking than that?

DonJose · 19-10-2007 09:00PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

Was your Thai bride better looking than that?

You bet she was, especially when she tucked her balls in

humanji · 19-10-2007 09:02PM

She looks like Jack Palance in a wig.

Blowfish · 19-10-2007 09:10PM

On the bright side, at least he/she'll get a cheaper car insurance...

Scoobydoobydoo · 19-10-2007 09:12PM

Sorry, I don't see how she deserves to change her birth certificate. I do feel for people who have felt like they were in the wrong gender body all their lives - but she married a woman AS A MAN and FATHERED children. So, how could she do all of that, if she felt so strongly that she was a woman all her life, sorry, don't buy it. Those mistakes are way too big in my eyes. How many lives has she ruined in the process?
If she had not done those things and claimed to have all her life been living in the wrong gender body, I would understand. I don't see how she has a leg to stand on in her case.

Keith186 · 19-10-2007 09:20PM

DaveMcG wrote: »

Hey folks,

Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

Have to agree overall. So what if sheman thinks she's a woman, sheman still had a knob when sheman was born therefore sheman is a bloke, if that was the case it wouldn't matter if you had a knob or not they'd have to run to psychological tests to determine sex.

Also how was sheman's privacy invaded? I think sheman brought it into the limelight by appearing on the RTE News perhaps.

Sheman's kids are now the children of two women it has to be said which is a tad bit weird. I'll bet they'll have emotional scars after all this sh1te.:(

Terry · 19-10-2007 09:21PM

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

Sorry, I don't see how she deserves to change her birth certificate. I do feel for people who have felt like they were in the wrong gender body all their lives - but she married a woman AS A MAN and FATHERED children. So, how could she do all of that, if she felt so strongly that she was a woman all her life, sorry, don't buy it. Those mistakes are way too big in my eyes. How many lives has she ruined in the process?
If she had not done those things and claimed to have all her life been living in the wrong gender body, I would understand. I don't see how she has a leg to stand on in her case.

She used to have three legs to stand on.

Keith186 · 19-10-2007 09:24PM

Blowfish wrote: »

On the bright side, at least he/she'll get a cheaper car insurance...

Here's a guy considering the same idea!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtEp5yc-g3A

Scoobydoobydoo · 19-10-2007 09:28PM

Terry wrote: »

She used to have three legs to stand on.

Hee hee hee, Terry you're sooo cheeky!

19-10-2007 10:24PM

A birth certificate is proof of ID and the basics about you when you were born. This hasn't changed. So you don't get a new one. Soon people will want to put step-dads and stuff on their back-dated birth certs.

If he/she/it wants a new passport, drivers license, whatever - let he/she/it have them and let he/she/it pay for them. He/she/it can change his/her/its name via deed poll so that's covered and I'll let the doctors or something decide whether the male or female box is checked on same though.

Terry · 19-10-2007 10:38PM

There's no "He/She" about it.

"Y" chromosome.

Dizzyblonde · 19-10-2007 10:47PM

Aw lads, where's the compassion? I think all this person wants is to be shown as female on passport, driving licence etc so as to stop the sniggering when she has to produce them. I doubt the decision to have such radical surgery was taken lightly, and no doubt transgender people can see for themselves when they look in the mirror that they don't look the best. Which makes it all the sadder.
In my opinion the new birth cert should be issued on compassionate grounds. This person has lost so much already and has had to go public for this.
There but for the grace of God............

moco · 19-10-2007 10:59PM

He/she would be able to get a passport as a female without her birth cert being changed. I think she's taking it too far wanting her birth cert changed as she was born male. I suppose they could do that thing where the registrar alters the cert, saying it's been changed from saying 'male' to 'female' but just a fresh cert with male on it is a but much in my opinion.

Lydia Foy, he-she: had privacy breached because her birth-cert says she's a dude

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