Lydia Foy, he-she: had privacy breached because her birth-cert says she's a dude

Dave!

Hey folks,

I fully support the boards.ie After Hours Regeneration Scheme, and so I'm doing what I can to enhance the content of said forum. I think it's entirely appropriate, therefore, to discuss this landmark High Court ruling.

By way of background, I'll copy and paste a bit from an article....

Dr Lydia Foy, a dentist from Kildare was born a male but underwent a sex change operation in 1992.

Ms Foy started legal proceedings to have her new gender recognised on her birth cert but in 2002 the High Court refused her application to have her birth cert altered.

Lydia Foy took fresh proceedings looking for a new birth cert and a declaration that the birth cert system here is incompatible with the convention if it prevents her registration as a female.

And now today there has been a ruling...

Today Mr Justice McKechnie said he hadn't the power to guarantee her a new birth cert but he did say that the birth cert system constitutes a breach of her right to privacy under the convention.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/state-found-to-be-in-breach-of-european-convention-in-regard-to-sex-change-law-1200106.html

So I'm looking for opinions on this

Personally I don't feel too strongly about it... I mean, at the end of the day I don't forsee it leading to many problems down the line. But at the same time, I can't help but think it's ridiculous to expect a historical document, as the birth cert is, to be changed retrospectively. Dr Foy was born a dude, and no amount of revisionism changes that.

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

But the High Court has ruled, and apparantly we are one of only 2 EU countries that does not cater for transgender people.

As I say, I don't really care, it just seems silly. But if it makes Dr Foy happy, meh.

Tigger

DaveMcG wrote: »

Hey folks,

I fully support the boards.ie After Hours Regeneration Scheme, and so I'm doing what I can to enhance the content of said forum. I think it's entirely appropriate, therefore, to discuss this landmark High Court ruling.

By way of background, I'll copy and paste a bit from an article....

Dr Lydia Foy, a dentist from Kildare was born a male but underwent a sex change operation in 1992.

Ms Foy started legal proceedings to have her new gender recognised on her birth cert but in 2002 the High Court refused her application to have her birth cert altered.

Lydia Foy took fresh proceedings looking for a new birth cert and a declaration that the birth cert system here is incompatible with the convention if it prevents her registration as a female.

And now today there has been a ruling...

Today Mr Justice McKechnie said he hadn't the power to guarantee her a new birth cert but he did say that the birth cert system constitutes a breach of her right to privacy under the convention.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/state-found-to-be-in-breach-of-european-convention-in-regard-to-sex-change-law-1200106.html

So I'm looking for opinions on this

Personally I don't feel too strongly about it... I mean, at the end of the day I don't forsee it leading to many problems down the line. But at the same time, I can't help but think it's ridiculous to expect a historical document, as the birth cert is, to be changed retrospectively. Dr Foy was born a dude, and no amount of revisionism changes that.

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

But the High Court has ruled, and apparantly we are one of only 2 EU countries that does not cater for transgender people.

As I say, I don't really care, it just seems silly. But if it makes Dr Foy happy, meh.

if i change my name and have surgery to look younger can i have a new birth cert

it'd be handy cos of the penaty points

Cuddlesworth

Hmm, this might open up an avenue to having my religion put down as a Jedi on my birth cert.

Karl Hungus

DaveMcG wrote: »

Her legal representative (I think) was on the Right Hook talking about how the birth cert only says that she was born a male physically, but doesn't refer to her psychological gender :rolleyes: Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

Tigger

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

but did the person in question have female brain chemistry
do they now

where is this brain chemistry
can we see it

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

he's got feet

osteriches have feet

Hagar

rbd wrote: »

where is this brain chemistry
can we see it

I think seeing his little willie was the give away...

Terry

Y chromosome.
That is all.

Tigger

Terry wrote: »

Y chromosome.
That is all.

not really gonna give the female brain chemistry thing much of a go the old y chromo is it

Time Magazine

Also fathered children!

I'm undecided about this case, though.

thefinalstage

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

They could think that they should have been born ostriches and than get an operation to look like one. Some people think that they should have been born wolves (and live like them) why not ostriches?

MooseJam

transgendered are ugly as sin

Reku

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

There's no real basis for you to have been born an ostrich, so it's not a real comparison.

He was born male, he can consider himself a woman as much as he wants, fact is he is genetically male and was born male. You cannot change the past regardless of what you may do in the here and now.
If you want to go down the route of male vs. female minds should we all be subjected to testing for such? Many females in the physics and engineering fields for example show as having male minds, should they be required to consider themselves male just because a few people are unhappy with their lives and want the world to change for them?!?:mad:

Should people who take anti-aging products & have cosmetic surgery be allowed demand that their date of birth on their birth certs be changed to reflect their supposedly younger bodies?
What about these people;
Jocelyn Wildenstein
Dennis Avner
Erik Sprague

etc... should they not be allowed to have their birth certs altered to declare they were born as kittens, etc...?
IMO the courts should have told him to go away and stop wasting court time.
I'd rather not consider myself human (lets face it we're nothing to be proud of), should I be allowed get heavy modding and to demand that my birth cert. be altered to indicate that I am not human?

More to the point how the heck is the presence of the person's true gender on their birth cert. a prevention to the right to privacy, it's not like just march into government offices and pull the birth certs. of anyone I feel like without knowing the name on the birth certs. so short of them being told the person's birthname they won't be able to find out.

Then there's the whole can of worms regarding transgendered becoming romantically/sexually involved with people without informing them of their transgendered nature, which in this day and age is potentially something they could be sued over when the other person finds out.

Terry

I want to be a Jew-fin.

Rebeller

farohar wrote: »

More to the point how the heck is the presence of the person's true gender on their birth cert. a prevention to the right to privacy, it's not like just march into government offices and pull the birth certs. of anyone I feel like without knowing the name on the birth certs. so short of them being told the person's birthname they won't be able to find out.

From a legal standpoint the right to privacy is not just about "keeping things private" and preventing people knowing things about other people, it concerns the belief that certain aspects of an individual's life should not be subject to regulation or interference by the state or legislature. In other words, while the state is free to set down rules telling people that they must pay tax, obey speed limits, not steal etc etc. it has no right to dictate how people should act in the privacy of their own homes.

I suppose you could see the right to privacy as a necessary corollary of the belief that we should be free to think or act in whatever way we wish provided we do not interfere with the rights of others.

farohar

farohar wrote: »

If you want to go down the route of male vs. female minds should we all be subjected to testing for such? Many females in the physics and engineering fields for example show as having male minds, should they be required to consider themselves male just because a few people are unhappy with their lives and want the world to change for them?!?:mad:

So because I as female can add you consider me to have a male brain.
And Lydia Foy is going to force the goverment to out me, and turn me into a lesbian..........OoKAY ~smiles and slowly backs out the door and away from the nutter~

Reku

Moonbaby wrote: »

So because I as female can add you consider me to have a male brain.
And Lydia Foy is going to force the goverment to out me, and turn me into a lesbian..........OoKAY ~smiles and slowly backs out the door and away from the nutter~

No, there is considered to be certain traits that mark brains as male/female, MOST women in the physics and engineering fields test as having male brains, it has nothing to do with simple arithmatic ability, there are many factors such as spatial reasoning, pattern recognition, empathy, mechanical reasoning, etc...
I know the PC brigade & the more poorly educated/dillusional feminists will be up in arms over this but simple fact is that male and female brains do not work the same way and as a result the two genders have tendencies towards strengths in different educational fields from one another.

Manic Moran

Just how far back in the historical records is she looking to go? Should she get a new Leaving Cert with her new female name on it? How about the effect on private entities, does her bank need to go back over all its forms and records (at their expense, no doubt) to change any references from "male" to "female" and change all names?

Sounds like a very dodgy road to me. She should be provided with an official document such as an annex to the birth cert explaining the situation. This is much like my military record: I got a DD214 on release from active service. If there were any mistakes made, I do not receive a new DD214, they give me a DD215 with the changes listed on it to be shown in conjunction with the original historical document.

NTM

DonJose

OMG thanks Lydia Foy, you just put me off transexuals, gotta go and vomit now.

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000d58710dr.jpg

Dave!

DonJose wrote: »

OMG thanks Lydia Foy, you just put me off transexuals, gotta go and vomit now.

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000d58710dr.jpg

Was your Thai bride better looking than that?

DonJose

DaveMcG wrote: »

Was your Thai bride better looking than that?

You bet she was, especially when she tucked her balls in

humanji

She looks like Jack Palance in a wig.

Blowfish

On the bright side, at least he/she'll get a cheaper car insurance...

Scoobydoobydoo

Sorry, I don't see how she deserves to change her birth certificate. I do feel for people who have felt like they were in the wrong gender body all their lives - but she married a woman AS A MAN and FATHERED children. So, how could she do all of that, if she felt so strongly that she was a woman all her life, sorry, don't buy it. Those mistakes are way too big in my eyes. How many lives has she ruined in the process?
If she had not done those things and claimed to have all her life been living in the wrong gender body, I would understand. I don't see how she has a leg to stand on in her case.

Keith186

DaveMcG wrote: »

Hey folks,

Gimme a break. I wonder if I requested to have a document changed to indicate that I was in fact born an ostrich, would the court hear me out? Doubtful.

Have to agree overall. So what if sheman thinks she's a woman, sheman still had a knob when sheman was born therefore sheman is a bloke, if that was the case it wouldn't matter if you had a knob or not they'd have to run to psychological tests to determine sex.

Also how was sheman's privacy invaded? I think sheman brought it into the limelight by appearing on the RTE News perhaps.

Sheman's kids are now the children of two women it has to be said which is a tad bit weird. I'll bet they'll have emotional scars after all this sh1te.:(

Terry

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

Sorry, I don't see how she deserves to change her birth certificate. I do feel for people who have felt like they were in the wrong gender body all their lives - but she married a woman AS A MAN and FATHERED children. So, how could she do all of that, if she felt so strongly that she was a woman all her life, sorry, don't buy it. Those mistakes are way too big in my eyes. How many lives has she ruined in the process?
If she had not done those things and claimed to have all her life been living in the wrong gender body, I would understand. I don't see how she has a leg to stand on in her case.

She used to have three legs to stand on.

Keith186

Blowfish wrote: »

On the bright side, at least he/she'll get a cheaper car insurance...

Here's a guy considering the same idea!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtEp5yc-g3A

Scoobydoobydoo

Terry wrote: »

She used to have three legs to stand on.

Hee hee hee, Terry you're sooo cheeky!

Random

A birth certificate is proof of ID and the basics about you when you were born. This hasn't changed. So you don't get a new one. Soon people will want to put step-dads and stuff on their back-dated birth certs.

If he/she/it wants a new passport, drivers license, whatever - let he/she/it have them and let he/she/it pay for them. He/she/it can change his/her/its name via deed poll so that's covered and I'll let the doctors or something decide whether the male or female box is checked on same though.

Terry

There's no "He/She" about it.

"Y" chromosome.

Dizzyblonde

Aw lads, where's the compassion? I think all this person wants is to be shown as female on passport, driving licence etc so as to stop the sniggering when she has to produce them. I doubt the decision to have such radical surgery was taken lightly, and no doubt transgender people can see for themselves when they look in the mirror that they don't look the best. Which makes it all the sadder.
In my opinion the new birth cert should be issued on compassionate grounds. This person has lost so much already and has had to go public for this.
There but for the grace of God............

moco

He/she would be able to get a passport as a female without her birth cert being changed. I think she's taking it too far wanting her birth cert changed as she was born male. I suppose they could do that thing where the registrar alters the cert, saying it's been changed from saying 'male' to 'female' but just a fresh cert with male on it is a but much in my opinion.

Dizzyblonde

I don't think she wants the original birth cert changed, just a new one issued that says she's female now. Where's the harm? It's not as if he/she can change his/her mind again.
I just think it's such a pity someone has to suffer this indignity for something they can't help - it's not a choice.
He/she must suffer stares and abuse almost daily as it is. I'm just trying to see it from his/her perspective.

Dizzyblonde

moco wrote: »

He/she would be able to get a passport as a female without her birth cert being changed.

Really? I didn't think that was possible.

moco

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I don't think she wants the original birth cert changed, just a new one issued that says she's female now. Where's the harm? It's not as if he/she can change his/her mind again.
I just think it's such a pity someone has to suffer this indignity for something they can't help - it's not a choice.
He/she must suffer stares and abuse almost daily as it is. I'm just trying to see it from his/her perspective.

Well because a birth certificate records a birth, ie Moco was born a female in ....place on ....date. Changing that isn't reflecting the event. The past can't be changed, but I can see an argument for adding to the birth certificate that the sex has been changed.

Random

A birth cert is a certificate of your birth. Why issue one at the age of 50 or whatever? Some sort of official government ID document fine .. what about a page stamped by a priest? (I never understood why local priests could vett id .. but there you have it).

The whole thing is nonsense.

moco

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Really? I didn't think that was possible.

Yea, you need a letter from the surgeon stating that they performed the operation and it's irreversible, a psychiatrists report saying you're of sound mind, your birth cert (just to establish citizenship) and change of name deed poll.

Zaph

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Really? I didn't think that was possible.

On the radio this evening they said that Foy had been issued with a new passport, driving licence and tax records as a woman. They said it was an administrative decision to do so and so presumably had nothing to do with any legal rights. That said, I'm with Terry, the first thing I thought of was no matter how she feels, genetically she's still a man and no amount of surgery can change that.

Dizzyblonde

moco wrote: »

Yea, you need a letter from the surgeon stating that they performed the operation and it's irreversible, a psychiatrists report saying you're of sound mind, your birth cert (just to establish citizenship) and change of name deed poll.

Well in that case I wonder why he/she's going to this trouble. I thought it was to get a passport as a female and cut out the hassle.
It doesn't seem worth it, maybe after the surgery etc he/she still doesn't feel female without the documentation? I still think it's sad, whatever the reason, and sad for his kids too.

moco

zaph wrote: »

On the radio this evening they said that Foy had been issued with a new passport, driving licence and tax records as a woman. They said it was an administrative decision to do so and so presumably had nothing to do with any legal rights. That said, I'm with Terry, the first thing I thought of was no matter how she feels, genetically she's still a man and no amount of surgery can change that.

I agree..

Dizzyblonde

moco wrote: »

I agree..

Me too of course, that can't be changed, but what a conflict. It must be awful to feel you're in the wrong body. I wonder does the surgery lead to a happy ending, I'm not so sure. There was a case of a man in the UK a couple of years ago who was suing the doctor who'd performed his surgery because he'd changed his mind and felt it shouldn't have been done!!

Mark63

If she does have a passport/driving license and is issued to her as a woman, what's the problem? She can't cahnge the fact that she was born male and while I have no problem with the state facilitating her with regard to current documents, it seems crazy that there would be a High Court case to change her birth cert after all these years.

Off topic I know but if it comes to light that a father listed on a birth cert isn't the actual father - does the Birth Cert get changed because of that?

Dave!

It was mentioned on Newstalk yesterday that the state facilitates new birth certs for adopted children to reflect their new parents... It's possible I misheard, but I coulda sworn that's what they said.

Anybody confirm this?

moco

Mark63 wrote: »

If she does have a passport/driving license and is issued to her as a woman, what's the problem? She can't cahnge the fact that she was born male and while I have no problem with the state facilitating her with regard to current documents, it seems crazy that there would be a High Court case to change her birth cert after all these years.

Off topic I know but if it comes to light that a father listed on a birth cert isn't the actual father - does the Birth Cert get changed because of that?

Yea, it can be changed to show a new fothar of add a father to the cert if there wasn't one in the first place.

moco

DaveMcG wrote: »

It was mentioned on Newstalk yesterday that the state facilitates new birth certs for adopted children to reflect their new parents... It's possible I misheard, but I coulda sworn that's what they said.

Anybody confirm this?

I don't think that's the case. A new cert is issused, an adoption cert which looks very like a birth cert and has the new parent's names on it.

Jesus Wept

Gender ruling ‘will give so much hope’ to people with condition

'“Most other European countries already respect the autonomy of transgendered people by ensuring that their birth certificates accurately record their new identities,”

Surely a birth cert records your identity at birth. I don't understand why a birth cert should altered. Issue transgender folk with a new cert of sorts.

It's called a birth cert, not a life cert.

gyppo

What a load of Bollocks, if you pardon the pun.

Whatever sex the person purports to be now is irrelevant wrt the sex they were born with.
Lydia, the reality is you were born with a pair of liathroidi and assosiated undercarraige, which made you a male at birth - so why try and change a birth cert which was accurate at the time of your birth.

Scoobydoobydoo

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

There was a case of a man in the UK a couple of years ago who was suing the doctor who'd performed his surgery because he'd changed his mind and felt it shouldn't have been done!!

That's crazy, you can't go around changing your mind, willy nilly like that!;)

Rb

Karl Hungus wrote: »

In fairness, there's female brain chemistry and other such stuff, so the psychological gender is a very real thing.

Ah come on now, it probably just needed a stronger male role model in its life growing up

Nevyn

Terry wrote: »

Y chromosome.
That is all.

The physical changes to the foetus if it has a Y chromosome only happen at 5 months and there are people who have the Y chromosome and those changes never happen and they are born female, so you premise there is faulty.

A new birth cert means she can get a passport which will say female and that she can get married to a male.

Yes she cant' change the fact she was born male but that is not how she lives and her records should reflect that the fact she did have gender reassignment surgery should not be at the privy of every civil servant she has to deal with or
the officals in other country.

Agamemnon

Thaedydal wrote: »

A new birth cert means she can get a passport which will say female and that she can get married to a male.

So why not change the rules so that, in these cases, a passport isn't dependent on a birth cert? Trying to change a birth cert is a daft effort to rewrite personal history.

humbert

Do you have a link describing how someone with a Y chromosome can be born female?

I don't think the fact that it's affects dont kick in until the five month mark is significant.

However I do think in this case such personal info should not be available from a birth cert.