Pharmacists not dispensing methadone to junkies.

T-Boner · 16-10-2007 02:59PM

Wertz wrote: »

I won't accept that they sell meth now (maybe years ago), sure haven't they to swallow it there and then in the pharmacy? .

Alot of times when I'd pick up junkies in my cab they'd be going somewhere to sell their methadone and buy gear.

I hate getting caught out by picking one up form the street, but it happens. They make my skin crawl. But thankfully I've leather seats, which can a wipe down with Dethol wipes when they get out.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 03:00PM

Degsy wrote: »

No they dont have to take it there and there all the time.If you're on maintanance you can get "take aways" which is enough Phy to last you X amount of time.In order to qualify for this they must have clean urine,this is not difficult as they simply fill a syringe with somebody else's piss and give that as a sample.They can then be given 1000mls of physeptone which they sell to thier mates at up to 20 quid a hit(a small glassfull).The fact is that a junkie would much rather be taking actual heroin than methadone.You dont get the "rush" from oral substitutes and thats what its all about.They'll happily t ake methadone when they're "sick" but it wouldnt be thier first choice.Also,heroin isnt the only thing junkies will inject when they're in the mood."napps" or diamorphine tablets can be crushed up and injected as can Temgesic tablets.I'm of the opinion that junkies are junkies because they (not all of them) LIKE being junkies.

nope its cos of good law abiding working people like you and me

itsa our fault

Dragan · 16-10-2007 03:00PM

Savman wrote: »

Leaving Batman aside, I full accept that these people have made a conscious decision to take the first hit. After that it was all downhill. Let me ask, have you never made one wrong decision? Because I see most people making bad life threatening decisions every day on the roads, they get away with it, junkies dont. Once you get in, chances are you don't get out. So while they are fully responsible for the initial dive in, they still need outside help to save them from drowning.

I accept and understand the general contempt people have toward the whole thing, but the truth is this kind of dismissive mindset does not make the problem go away. In all my encounters with junkies, I've never been harmed in any way nor have I been mugged or threatened yet on the few encounters I had with local chavs I got enough of a beating to know who the real scum are in this country.

Don't get me wrong, i completely understand your point but for some with a heroin addiction to make out like all the help needs to come from outside is crazy. If you have a problem then you need to take those first steps. Resorting to "robbing" because you can't get meth a need heroin is not going to inspire pity in anyone?

At the end of the day i agree that these people need help, but complaining about not being able to get your legal fix as easily as you were able to is nuts.

As for the junkie/scumbag issue of course not all drug addicts are violent people......but they can be desperate people and i have dealt with them on more than a few occasions through old jobs. Just like anyone in a desperate spot the lines will often blur for them as well.

patrickc · 16-10-2007 03:12PM

KTRIC wrote: »

F*ck the junkies, let them go cold turkey. Could be good for a laugh.

very funny NOT

robinph wrote: »

So they picked methadone because the people on that drug are younger and more able to obtain a replacement drug from other sources according to the first person they interviewed. :eek:

people on methadone can live normal lives on methadone, yes it's more addictive then heroin but is it's about harm redution too.

kev_s88 wrote: »

do you really think a lack of methodone is gonna bother these junkbags???

yes those on the maintenance programme and most that I know it will bother them

NO... there just gonna go out and get whacked on something else like paint or white spirits!!! they'll always find a cheap alternative!!![/QUOTE]

not true.

the_syco wrote: »

F**k the junkies. They're on it cos they want to get high. They can come off it, and be ok. Heck, they even GET A F**KING JOB.

people can work on methadone and live normal lives, theres a sever shortage of beds if people wish to detox of methadone.

.[/QUOTE]

T-Boner wrote: »

Alot of times when I'd pick up junkies in my cab they'd be going somewhere to sell their methadone and buy gear.

I hate getting caught out by picking one up form the street, but it happens. They make my skin crawl. But thankfully I've leather seats, which can a wipe down with Dethol wipes when they get out.

shame on you t-bone

Trojan911 · 16-10-2007 03:19PM

KTRIC wrote: »

F*ck the junkies, let them go cold turkey.

My thoughts as well...... Problem is, will muggings & burglaries increase as junkie needs his/her fix whether it be Methadone or Heroin?

TJ911...

patrickc · 16-10-2007 03:31PM

cold turkey, would kill most of them, they need to come off it properly and supervised.

Degsy · 16-10-2007 03:32PM

patrickc2006 wrote: »

cold turkey, would kill most of them, they need to come off it properly and supervised.

It wont kill anybody.Junkies are a bunch of sissies.

Tigger · 16-10-2007 03:39PM

Degsy wrote: »

It wont kill anybody.Junkies are a bunch of sissies.

like in adam and paul?

togster · 16-10-2007 03:41PM

weren't they in wheelchairs.

patrickc · 16-10-2007 03:42PM

Degsy wrote: »

It wont kill anybody.Junkies are a bunch of sissies.

yeh and you know that how?

Degsy · 16-10-2007 03:48PM

patrickc2006 wrote: »

yeh and you know that how?

Oh come on..
Some of us have lived in the real world you know.I used to know loads of junkies,every one of them have gone cold turkey at some point.Its not pleasant but thats the name of the game.They need to get over it and cop themsleves on,i've no sympathy for people who've been banging up for twenty years and saying they cant get off it,they'd have gone cold turkey hundreds of times.

Nevyn · 16-10-2007 03:52PM

Wertz wrote: »

The one thing I don't undertaand in all of this, is after watching interviews with ex-junkies on the news last night, I learned that this country's physeptone programme continues INDEFINITELY....guys in their 40s and 50s were talking about being on meth for 7 and 8 YEARS! I mean what the bloody f*ck?

The government won't pay the money for proper treatment centres and the programs needed to get them through withdrawal and keep them clean it is easier to hand out methadone.

The cycle has to broken to get them off the drugs and going to the same clinc at the same time with those who have been thier junkie mates will not do that.

eth0_ · 16-10-2007 03:58PM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

A good many people develop type 2 diabetes due to being overweight and having poor diets/large alcohol consumption.

Self induced indeed.

Most type 2 diabetics can control their illness with a change of diet and a drug like Metformin - which only costs 5 euro a month on a private prescription, a hell of a lot less than insulin.

Your comparison is flawed as many people develop these illnesses because they are genetically predisposed. I haven't seen any literature that proves late onset diabetes is the result of eating too much sugar.

Also, overeating and drinking too much aren't illegal and don't fund terrorism and gangs, which is what you do when you purchase heroin.

patrickc · 16-10-2007 04:00PM

Degsy wrote: »

Oh come on..
Some of us have lived in the real world you know.I used to know loads of junkies,every one of them have gone cold turkey at some point.Its not pleasant but thats the name of the game.They need to get over it and cop themsleves on,i've no sympathy for people who've been banging up for twenty years and saying they cant get off it,they'd have gone cold turkey hundreds of times.

They need to do it in a safe supervised environment, cold turkey isn't pleasant for any heroin user, i work with alot of addicts and they are homeless, it's very hard for them to get their sh*t together, it's a continious cycle they get emergency accommodation but that's no place to go cold turkey when everyone around them is using. then for those who want to get their sh*t together they are considered not to be in the "right" environment by their counsellors..

Thaedydal wrote: »

The government won't pay the money for proper treatment centres and the programs needed to get them through withdrawal and keep them clean it is easier to hand out methadone.

The cycle has to broken to get them off the drugs and going to the same clinc at the same time with those who have been thier junkie mates will not do that.

well said Thaed, that's exactly it.

Degsy · 16-10-2007 04:08PM

patrickc2006 wrote: »

They need to do it in a safe supervised environment, cold turkey isn't pleasant for any heroin user, i work with alot of addicts and they are homeless, it's very hard for them to get their sh*t together, it's a continious cycle they get emergency accommodation but that's no place to go cold turkey when everyone around them is using. then for those who want to get their sh*t together they are considered not to be in the "right" environment by their counsellors.

And can i ask who's fault is all this exactly?

Wertz · 16-10-2007 04:14PM

Alright I stand corrected on the "carry out" meth...didn't know that was a policy.
I'm not going to argue this much further, because we all have different and probably ingrained views on it and I'm unlikely to alter anyone's opinion.
Joe Duffy made for an interesting listen earlier...some of the callers (addicts) had some very valid points to make, whether you'd agree with them or not and unlike me and most of the rest of us on here, they were speaking from experience instead of poorly formed opinions...

bleg · 16-10-2007 05:14PM

Right, let's get some clarity on the issue.

The matter at hand is quite complicated so I will explain it as best I can. Many people here have been going on about "greedy money grabbing pharmacists etc..." when they couldn't be further from the truth.

The HSE have a contract with pharmacists to pay for all medicines they get from wholesalers plus a €3 fee for every GMS prescription they dispense. The wholesalers in Ireland operate at about 17% markup, give or take. The European average is 8%, but hey, it's Ireland, it's always going to be higher.

The HSE wants to reduce the amount of money it pays out to pharmacists for drugs in the hope of saving around €100 million. This is in breach of the current contract. The HSE have not consulted with the IPU because they don't acknowledge them as a union:rolleyes:. They therefore expect pharmacists to continue the GMS scheme, in breach of contract, at a loss.

Naturally the pharmacists are not standing for this and have decided to highlight the issue by cutting off methadone treatment from their pharmacies.

Methadone was chosen for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is not (contrary to what some of you have said) a great money spinner for pharmacists so they won't be further out of pocket. Secondly, the people on methadone treatment are generally young people who are able to cope with what has happened. This can be seen as all around the country at the methadone clinics there has been minimal disruption and the worst thing that has happened is that some recovering addicts have had to wait until the afternoon/ evening to recieve their treatment. This isn't ideal however it is far better than pharmacists refusing to treat other schemes. Finally, there is a risk factor in dealing with people on methadone. Today, the HSE increased it's security in it's clinics because of the extra amount of people that would be present. They provide NO such security to the people they contracted the methadone treatment scheme to i.e. pharmacists.

The GMS isn't even that profitable to pharmacists and a lot of rural pharmacies have had to rely on wholesalers giving them free stock in return for bulk orders. This latest measure has exacerbated the situation. December 2nd has been earmarked for pharmacists to withdraw from the GMS entirely if something is not done to rectify the situation. This will result in people having to pay for the drugs that the government was previously paying for.

Some of you may think it is a bit rash but isn't a business entitled to discontinue part of it's service if that part is making a loss?

connundrum · 16-10-2007 06:10PM

T-Boner wrote: »

Alot of times when I'd pick up junkies in my cab they'd be going somewhere to sell their methadone and buy gear.

I hate getting caught out by picking one up form the street, but it happens. They make my skin crawl. But thankfully I've leather seats, which can a wipe down with Dethol wipes when they get out.

patrickc2006 wrote: »

shame on you t-bone

I fail to see how Mr. Boner should feel any shame for his comments. I would do the same, as its my property and I can wipe it down when I want. I'd do the same having picked up students too mind you.

In my line of work I unfortunately have to deal with a number of junkies a week. On most occassions they are ok, in that they'll admit to having done wrong and will move on i.e. they will have broken into a building to get warm etc. But I shortly will start wearing my stab vest into work for a genuine fear of what may happen if I were to come across a less obliging junkie.

Pharmacists have genuine fear and a genuine case for stopping service. You have to look after number one, and they weren't getting much support from the govt re: security.

DublinWriter · 16-10-2007 08:07PM

To be honest, this argument symbolises all that is wrong with modern Ireland, and here's why:

A number of my friends are pharmacists. Those with their own shops make about 120K a year, those working for chains do so on a contract basis and make €500 daily.

Thanks to the lobbying power of the IPU, foreign pharmacists are only allowed to come to this country as employees and not allowed set up their own shops.

You will never meet a hard-up Irish pharmacist in this country. Pharmacists in Ireland have the highest mark-ups in Europe, fact.

Cast your mind back five years when multiples like Tesco were granted the right to sell 'mild' analgesics like Anadin. The IPU were up in arms and threatened that the sky would fall in. It did not.

The IPU are the biggest foe of the Irish consumer, bar none. They make the Vintner's Association of Ireland look like a knitting circle in comparison.

Their action is reprehensible. They have chosen to pick on the weakest element in society to make their point.

It's easy to pick on the HSE, but pharmacists are equally as complicit.

Personally, I feel that the pharmacists that have chosen to break their contract with the state should be penalised harshly, not excluding the threat of prison sentences.

It's easy for the middle-class petty-bourgeoisie among you to cry "well, it's only affecting the junkies", but mark my words, you and your immediate family will be next to suffer when this self-serving autonomous body are allowed to ramp up their so-called 'protests' to the next level.

Robbo · 16-10-2007 08:28PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

Thanks to the lobbying power of the IPU, foreign pharmacists are only allowed to come to this country as employees and not allowed set up their own shops.

They have to work as an employee for three years, and then they can set up on their own.

Dudess · 16-10-2007 08:57PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

those working for chains do so on a contract basis and make €500 daily.

:eek:

/bursts into tears with regret for doing arts and not pharmacy...

bleg · 16-10-2007 09:15PM

DublinWriter wrote: »

To be honest, this argument symbolises all that is wrong with modern Ireland, and here's why:

A number of my friends are pharmacists. Those with their own shops make about 120K a year, those working for chains do so on a contract basis and make €500 daily.

one of the hardest courses in the country, pharmacists are experts at drugs and know more about them and their action in the body than doctors. pharmacists have to make a living, they have a huge responsibility to patients and suffer very very serious consequences if they make a mistake. it is a very stressful job where perfection is required. they deserve every penny they earn

this argument is not about whether you think pharmacists are paid well or not, it is about whether the HSE is right in trying to bully the pharmacists. the pharmacists say no and are taking action.

DublinWriter wrote: »

Thanks to the lobbying power of the IPU, foreign pharmacists are only allowed to come to this country as employees and not allowed set up their own shops.

absolute bull****, was appealed earlier in the year, we are the only country in Europe where foreign nationals can own their own pharmacy or be the supervising pharmacist.

DublinWriter wrote: »

You will never meet a hard-up Irish pharmacist in this country.

so? i have never met a hard up doctor, should we try to reduce the pay consultants are getting.. oh wait, we already had that disaster...

DublinWriter wrote: »

Pharmacists in Ireland have the highest mark-ups in Europe, fact.

so do irish supermarkets, shops, plumbers, electricians etc... you live in ireland, it's expensive

DublinWriter wrote: »

Cast your mind back five years when multiples like Tesco were granted the right to sell 'mild' analgesics like Anadin. The IPU were up in arms and threatened that the sky would fall in. It did not.

never had a problem with non ethical medicines being sold in shops/petrol stations, only ethical medicines.

DublinWriter wrote: »

The IPU are the biggest foe of the Irish consumer, bar none. They make the Vintner's Association of Ireland look like a knitting circle in comparison.

anything to back up that statement? want to show me some studies that show the IPU are sucking the country dry and robbing us blind?

DublinWriter wrote: »

Their action is reprehensible. They have chosen to pick on the weakest element in society to make their point.

i have dealt with this in my previous post. there are methadone clinics all over the country that were more than capable to deal with the recovering addicts. you should read it

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's easy to pick on the HSE, but pharmacists are equally as complicit.

Personally, I feel that the pharmacists that have chosen to break their contract with the state should be penalised harshly, not excluding the threat of prison sentences.

will we put the people in the HSE that decided to break the contract with the pharmacists over GMS prescriptions is prison as well? should we have put the nurses in prison when they worked to rule

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's easy for the middle-class petty-bourgeoisie among you to cry "well, it's only affecting the junkies", but mark my words, you and your immediate family will be next to suffer when this self-serving autonomous body are allowed to ramp up their so-called 'protests' to the next level.

the protest you allude to is the one on december 2nd? the one i referred to in my previous post? i.e. pharmacists pulling out of the GMS completely. they would be completely justified in doing so. in the same way any private business that was providing a service that is no longer profitable would be entitled to do so.

frankly i think you should have read my post before you embarassed yourself like this. in future i suggest you take the time to read what has been posted before you embark on a ridiculous rant.

patrickc · 16-10-2007 09:30PM

Degsy wrote: »

And can i ask who's fault is all this exactly?

it's the government's fault for not having enough services, everyone here has dabbled in something be it alcohol, cannabis, whatever some people where just unlucky enough to dabble in gear and they got hooked, the government needs to provide services for these affected people, it's part of society and every other country in the EU has services in place for drug addicts, the UK has brilliant services. somebody can get on a clinic in the UK after a week or less, in Ireland it can take months if not even a year in some cases.

slipss · 16-10-2007 09:40PM

heh I heard this story on the radio a couple of days ago there and the first thing I thought was "I wonder if that Degsy fella from Boards has a thread up about this yet", I think I must be spending too much time on here.

Is it your responsibility to pay for a junkies methadone through your taxes? No. You didn't make them take heroin, why would it be. Is it your responsibility to pay for the physio and surgery for someone that was out absailing and fell, crushing thier spine? No. You didn't make them climb over the edge of a cliff, why would it be. Is it your........etc etc. No. But were supposed to be a compasionate race and society and what good can come from the "**** you you silly bastard, its your own fault" attitude.

I knew a girl since we were both kids in the same playschool, she died two years ago. She was a junkie. She died going through withdrawal from heroin. She went cold turkey and it caused severe dehydration and cardiac arrythmia. It's not the normal result of going cold turkey but its by no means unheard of.

Was her heroin addiction self inflicted? Well yes, no one held her down and stuck a needle in her arm, but its not like she woke up one morning, looked around at the junkies on the street and thought "me too". She had a hard life, her father was a paedofile that abused her and her sister, when she told her mother, her mother accused her of lying and said if she ever told anyone she'd be kicked out of the house. When she was 14 she started a "relationship" with a 24 year old pimp and heroin dealer and moved in with him to get away from her family. After a few months she was on heroin. She treid to come off it several times, but like a large proportion of junkies she was using it to self medicate her depression and became suicidle when she came off it. She was constantly surrounded by other junkies and didn't really know any better life than the one she was living. I lost contact with her when she moved away from her family and only got to know her again and learned most of this about 3 years ago. Maybe if she had been able to get into a residential treatment programme, for which she was constantly on waiting lists for, or if she had have been on methadone earlier in her addiction things would have been different.

Now I'm not trying to say "ahhh pity the poor junkies" but I have worked in community addiction programmes and a massively disproportionate ammount of heroin addicts have somewhat similar stories. The point I'm trying to make is that not all junkies just don't give a **** about anyone and love leading the "easy" junkie lifestyle. For alot of them, heroin addiction is as much a symptom of underlying problems which were absalutely not self inflicted.

To try and add a little balance to this post I have also had a blood filled syringe pressed into my throat by a junkie that wanted my watch and phone and had to be screened for hepatitis and hiv ect, and that was the worst period of my life, waiting to get the results back. Now that particualar junkie can slowley burn from his feet up for all I care. But they are not all the same.

bleg · 16-10-2007 09:45PM

slipss, you're kind of missing the point. it's not about whether we should be paying for recovering addicts. that is a separate issue.

the title of this thread should be "In response to HSE breaking contract pharmacists pull out of methadone treatment scheme." It's very misleading.

Dudess · 16-10-2007 09:54PM

Did I hear a few weeks ago that pharmacists were also going to withdraw methadone due to fears for their safety?

patrickc · 16-10-2007 09:59PM

Dudess wrote: »

Did I hear a few weeks ago that pharmacists were also going to withdraw methadone due to fears for their safety?

as far as i gather that's some part of it from the letter the HSE sent out today, but also pharmacists feel they might be in danger for not giving out the methadone, as people could get aggravated over having to go to clinics again. anyone on a pharmacy take out is very stable though and is giving continuous clean urine's.

Odysseus · 16-10-2007 10:11PM

patrickc2006 wrote: »

as far as i gather that's some part of it from the letter the HSE sent out today, but also pharmacists feel they might be in danger for not giving out the methadone, as people could get aggravated over having to go to clinics again. anyone on a pharmacy take out is very stable though and is giving continuous clean urine's.

In theory your spot on, but that is not always the case. I having been working in this area for over ten years. Those on with GPs as oppossed to clinics should be stable but there are a large number slipping though the net, GPs not being strict about urines, alcohol is a hugh problem to. However, it is important to note that a large number additionally are stable, holding down good jobs, looking after families and contributing to society in general.

patrickc · 16-10-2007 10:15PM

Odysseus wrote: »

In theory your spot on, but that is not always the case. I having been working in this area for over ten years. Those on with GPs as oppossed to clinics should be stable but there are a large number slipping though the net, GPs not being strict about urines, alcohol is a hugh problem to. However, it is important to note that a large number additionally are stable, holding down good jobs, looking after families and contributing to society in general.

yeh i made that point earlier about many being stable working etc, but your right there are laxadaisy gp's out there who don't bother about the urine checking. the majority do AFAIK.

Dudess · 16-10-2007 10:17PM

If there's no methadone though, they'll probably get intimidated for something else.

Pharmacists not dispensing methadone to junkies.

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