Irish Patriotism

Kappar · 04-08-2002 12:14PM #1

This just is just a question to gauge how patriotic the Irish are.

How many people here know the National Anthem, by heart?

How many people here, if the seen someone flying the Irish flag outside their house would say ‘Look at that lunatic’s house, he’s flying the flag and it’s not even the world cup’?

How many people own a copy of the constitution?

How many people know the basics of Irish history, When Ireland became a republic, When Ireland became a free state? Who the first president was, etc?

azezil · 04-08-2002 12:42PM

Originally posted by Kappar

How many people here know the National Anthem, by heart?

I know the first line or two

How many people here, if the seen someone flying the Irish flag outside their house would say ‘Look at that lunatic’s house, he’s flying the flag and it’s not even the world cup’?

Well i wouldn't say that, but personally don't think it necessary to have one flying 24/7/365

How many people own a copy of the constitution?

Nope

How many people know the basics of Irish history, When Ireland became a republic, When Ireland became a free state? Who the first president was, etc?

I know it fairly well.

PyjamaMan · 04-08-2002 12:45PM

i know the anthem by heart in both irish and english

not wise to have a republic flag flying outside your house in the north.

dont have a copy of it

i know it fairly well, though not in great detail.

Stumps · 04-08-2002 01:02PM

does anyone agree it's not appropriate to play the national anthem at the the end of the night in a pub or night club? it's not the time or the place for it and it's forcing people who aren't irish to stand and glorify a song which really means nothing to them.

bugler · 04-08-2002 01:07PM

Hopefully, the answers will indicate that we are not 'patriotic' at all. Patriotism belongs to the past. It has been a terrible cause of war and hate over the centuries, and besides all that nonsense, it's completely pointless. Should I be proud of being born on this island, knowing I could just as easily have been born into a family in France, or Sudan?

It's the same regarding pride in, say, Ireland's literary tradition. Why should I express pride in the achievements of others, with whom I only share the most chance of bonds with? I can respect and admire people for what they have done, but I have no inclination to be proud on someone elses behalf.

Now, the answers to the questions...

1) I know the anthem more or less.

2) I'd say that whoever flies an Irish flag all the time probably needs to shake that chip off their shoulder. Why would you want to do that? I can't think of a healthy reason.

3) I do own a copy of the Irish constitution, but only because I study law.

4) I know my Irish history fairly well, I find it interesting, but I'm infinetly more concerned with Ireland's present and future.

Kappar · 04-08-2002 01:29PM

Here's me in all the rush of posting the questions I didn't give my response:

1) Not very well, However I have downloaded the words and plan on learning them.

2) I do think 'Must be crazy' when I see the Irish flag outside someones house but I do think to myself why should he be crazy for flying it if that is how he feels.

3)I do own and have read and still refer to the constituion and Do not study Law.

4) I know a fair deal about Irish history.

phreak · 04-08-2002 01:52PM

no

no

no

yes

Pigman · 04-08-2002 02:17PM

Yes

No

No

Yes

However, I still don't consider myself patriotic.
Simply being educated on such matters and cool about the flag-wavers doesn't make you a patriot IMHO.

beardedchicken · 04-08-2002 04:20PM

Originally posted by Kappar
How many people here know the National Anthem, by heart?

yes, but only in irish- (i only know the first couple of lines in english)

How many people here, if the seen someone flying the Irish flag outside their house would say ‘Look at that lunatic’s house, he’s flying the flag and it’s not even the world cup’?

i do generally think that flying the flag outside one's house smacks of fanatic republicanism- granted, it is our national flag, but it has taken on a different significance over the last 30 years, and flying it is more of a political statement than an expression of love for one's country

How many people own a copy of the constitution?

yes, but i also need it for college

How many people know the basics of Irish history, When Ireland became a republic, When Ireland became a free state? Who the first president was, etc?

yes, although apparently not even the taoiseach knows fully who the first president was!

RopeDrink · 04-08-2002 04:54PM

Bugler hit it on the head there.

Last night my best friend played the Irish National Anthem on her mobile (Ringtone) and asked me to name what it was.
Being English, I hadn't the foggiest. Then again, I wouldn't know half of the English National Anthem either and I couldn't give a flying toss about either of them.

Q: Who cares?
(NOTE: If anyone answers then that would indicate a 95% chance of the answerer in being one of those nasty severely 'IRISH' types that hate the English)

Shinji · 04-08-2002 06:40PM

I know the anthem off by heart, in Irish (not a clue of the English words); I don't really care if people choose to fly the flag, it's their own choice and they probably have their own reasons, as long as it's not blind antagnosim in someone elses country. I don't own a copy of the constitution but I can quote fair lumps of it... And I know Irish history very well, or at least I think I do.

I don't see what the hell any of that has to do with patriotism. Most of it is general knowledge and tolerance for the views of others.

I'm remarkably proud of my nationality and my country, for all its many faults, but I don't like this idea of patriotism. I look at what so-called patriotism has done in the North, in Israel, in the United States, and I don't ever want to see that happen where I live.

I'm a human being first, and an Irishman (or a European) second.

Caesar_Bojangle · 04-08-2002 08:44PM

if you fly the tricolour outside of your house you are considered pro sinn fein and for a 32 county republic, thats why its uncommon down south at least to see ppl fly the flag at times other than sporting events or st patricks day.

Kabazzo

][cEMAN** · 04-08-2002 09:05PM

There's nothing wrong with having a love of one's country. Patriotism is though outdated.

I don't think most people with a clue would offer to fight for their country when they disagree with the views of the people who are sending them into battle. Especially when that person may change every few years and they views themselves change along with them.

Yes the Flag flies here all the time....but most of you know where I live so you understand that it IS for the reason most of you are saying it shouldn't be used for.

I don't know the national anthem off by heart. I don't know the English one either but then in the same way that you think it wrong to play it at the end of the night I was forced to sing (more hum along) to it when I was at school because I went to a mixed school and that's what they played on remembrance days. We all had to wear poppies etc and go with the flow.

I didn't agree with it then and I don't much care tbh - cause none of them are a catchy tune and I only remember good songs. Sorry

As for history - well I was never any good at ANY kind of history. Probably why I failed it. I accept that those who forget the past are doomed to relive it.....but I also believe that what's passed should stay in the past. Don't keep stirring something up that has no place now.

And yet I call myself Irish.....and to some that makes them believe patriotism should follow. Well I also call myself by my family's name. And though i'm proud of my family I know that I shouldn't be marked by their actions. I am my own person. So if they had done something really bad I would still call myself by their name but would be myself.

Don't mark yourself on what people have done before you because you didn't do them! Wether good or bad it wasn't you. You can't be judged by the actions of others. And those who would judge you are blind. In the same way don't feel proud of your forefathers - they did what they had to do (Sometimes out of necessesity) and when they are revered that's for them. Not for you. You are neither as good or as bad as they are - you are yourlself. Go live your life!!

Lump · 05-08-2002 12:05AM

Yes

No

No

Yes

I think it is good to play the anthem at the end of the night in the pub..... Fair enough it might mean nothing to foreign people, but TBH it warms my heart to see everyone standing for their country, and I get annoyed when people dont bother. I think it is a sign of togetherness. The anthem is a sign of the people in my opinion, not politics. Also, that comment about people who hang flags out their window been for a 32 county Rebublic is probably true, but its not the only reason, Some people love the country very much. FFS In england, Twats hand union jacks sewn into their cloths, on the pockets, etc. Also some people drive around with cars fully painted in the union jack...... I dont think you'd get a car painted in the Tri-Colour driving around. Or for that matter some woman wearing a top with the Tri-colour as the design. If people dont know what I'm talking about tell me and I'm sure I can find some Photos. I know a girl in England who has a bag with the Union jack in Sequenes (Spelling) on the side. FFS...... It annoys me. Any way, enough of my rant..... Oh I am patriotic.

John

mike65 · 05-08-2002 12:14AM

Originally posted by Lump
In england, Twats hand union jacks sewn into their cloths, on the pockets, etc. Also some people drive around with cars fully painted in the union jack...... I dont think you'd get a car painted in the Tri-Colour driving around. Or for that matter some woman wearing a top with the Tri-colour as the design. If people dont know what I'm talking about tell me and I'm sure I can find some Photos. I know a girl in England who has a bag with the Union jack in Sequenes (Spelling) on the side. FFS...... It annoys me. Any way, enough of my rant..... Oh I am patriotic.
John

Lump, you obviously don't understand a certain type of English thinking, when ppl make handbangs or hats with the Union flag on them its as much a jokey thing as its is patriotic. Its the Yanks who are anal about national symbols..as for a car painted in the national colours...some bloke round here has got a green white and gold banger which I presume was done for the world-cup.

Mike.

PyjamaMan · 05-08-2002 12:45AM

Originally posted by RopeDrink
Q: Who cares?
(NOTE: If anyone answers then that would indicate a 95% chance of the answerer in being one of those nasty severely 'IRISH' types that hate the English) [/B]

i have no hate for english people, i hate what the people who love the queen or regard themselves as english and claiming what they do is for the good of the united kingdom did to me family and friends over the years, ive had 2 cousins killed an uncled killed, me da nearly killed and an uncle put in the maze for 2 years, during the time the RUC and UDA just lifted catholics off the street and put them in jail

Lump · 05-08-2002 01:54AM

Originally posted by mike65

Lump, you obviously don't understand a certain type of English thinking, when ppl make handbangs or hats with the Union flag on them its as much a jokey thing as its is patriotic. Mike.

No, they do it cause they're twats.

john

Slutmonkey57b · 05-08-2002 02:53AM

Originally posted by PyjamaMan

i have no hate for english people, i hate what the people who love the queen or regard themselves as english and claiming what they do is for the good of the united kingdom did to me family and friends over the years, ive had 2 cousins killed an uncled killed, me da nearly killed and an uncle put in the maze for 2 years, during the time the RUC and UDA just lifted catholics off the street and put them in jail

The violent bigots of northern Ireland have precisely nothing to do with English people whatsoever. People who live in the mainland UK could not give half of a flying toss about the constituionality, legal ownership or otherwise of northern ireland. The British are as much victims of the bigots of Northern Ireland as the persecuted catholics.

Slutmonkey57b · 05-08-2002 03:10AM

Whoops wrong button.

Patriotism nowadays is such a confused issue - the problems associated with flying of flags and national anthems are mostly ones of perception. Flying the George Cross in england before the last world cup was something that meant you were percieved as an NF hooligan, or at best a football supporter.

There's nothing wrong with being patriotic and being pround ofthe achievements of your country - whatever the morals of the past, single countries, or individuals acting on behalf of a country have wrought dramatic changes in the world. The problem with patriotism is when it is abused to quash the individual - singing the national anthem in the pub is great in theory - but if it means that people who _don't_ sing the anthem are made to feel threatened, then you're not dealing with patriotism, you're dealing with mob mentality and underlying violence.

I tried this once by deliberatly refusing to stand or sing during the national anthem in a pub a few years ago - and I wasn't disappointed by the crowd's reaction. Had I hung around the area, I'm quite sure I would have been on the receiving end of a good mugging. This wouldn't happen everywhere, but it's an example to think about.

DadaKopf · 05-08-2002 03:10AM

In my mind there are two types of patriotism: virulent patriotism, the one that starts wars and healthy patriotism.

Because of our history and the North, we're scared of admitting that it's actually OK to love our country. Sometimes I wonder whether we care about being Irish at all.

Patriotism, in my mind, is not being able to sing the national anthem, or to put Ireland flags in your windows and superficial things like that. It's about admitting that you are part of a whole culture, one vital element in what should be a national community - an identity. There's nothing dangerous about this. In fact, it's necessary. How else are we going to develop a healthy image of ourselves and develop the kind of society and country we want?

We're subject to the same history, the same customs, the same laws - why can't we just admit our past and present commonalities and work to build a decent national identity?

What worries me most is that this allergy to national pride is diminishing the possibility for social justice, equality, public/democratic participation that this country so sorely needs. There's no civic spirit, no civic 'friendship' and sometimes I feel we're just dragging ourselves down because we're not patriotic enough.

DadaKopf · 05-08-2002 03:10AM

In my mind there are two types of patriotism: virulent patriotism, the one that starts wars and healthy patriotism.

Because of our history and the North, we're scared of admitting that it's actually OK to love our country. Sometimes I wonder whether we care about being Irish at all.

Patriotism, in my mind, is not being able to sing the national anthem, or to put Ireland flags in your windows and superficial things like that. It's about admitting that you are part of a whole culture, one vital element in what should be a national community - an identity. There's nothing dangerous about this. In fact, it's necessary. How else are we going to develop a healthy image of ourselves and develop the kind of society and country we want?

We're subject to the same history, the same customs, the same laws - why can't we just admit our past and present commonalities and work to build a decent national identity?

What worries me most is that this allergy to national pride is diminishing the possibility for social justice, equality, public/democratic participation that this country so sorely needs. There's no civic spirit, no civic 'friendship' and sometimes I feel we're just dragging ourselves down because we're not patriotic enough.

][cEMAN** · 05-08-2002 12:35PM

Originally posted by Slutmonkey57b

The violent bigots of northern Ireland have precisely nothing to do with English people whatsoever. People who live in the mainland UK could not give half of a flying toss about the constituionality, legal ownership or otherwise of northern ireland. The British are as much victims of the bigots of Northern Ireland as the persecuted catholics.

He didn't say he h8ed English people in the mainland. He actually said

i have no hate for english people

What he's going on about are the loyalist/unionist members of N.I. including the police force, who under the pretence of love of england AND the queen etc etc Carry out outrageous acts of violence. Such as some paramilitary organisations recent threat that they are going to start a rampage of killing Catholics.

Point being - being a catholic doesn't necessarily make you a republican or a nationalist but it does make you a victim.

When stones are thrown by kids at houses of people in a highly unionist area it gets blasted all over the news and that it must be a republican plot and that the ceasefire is over. When a pipebomb gets thrown into the house of a catholic with no political links, it gets classed as probably kids having fun. And that is that. I mean seriously - a pipe bomb. That's not fun. And yet the general public accept that it had no political links (a bomb) and go about their daily business.

You accept what you're told when you don't live amongst it. I and PJ live amongst it. And then we have people in the south complaining about us just cause we complain that we're getting shot day in day out. Well sorry for speaking. Guess we'll just lay down like good little catholics and take a bullet for bigotry?!?!

You'd easily give your hearts to all the victims of other countries - funny how you're blind to the victims in your own country. And I don't accept that you see N.I. as another country because it's not. It's one island!! Yes it has a border and it is split into a republic but it's 1 island. Deal with the problems on your own front door (Or even if you want to call us your neighbours) before you throw your hearts out to the poor victims in other countries!!!

mike65 · 05-08-2002 03:00PM

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Patriotism, in my mind, is not being able to sing the national anthem, or to put Ireland flags in your windows and superficial things like that. It's about admitting that you are part of a whole culture, one vital element in what should be a national community - an identity. There's nothing dangerous about this. In fact, it's necessary. How else are we going to develop a healthy image of ourselves and develop the kind of society and country we want?

What worries me most is that this allergy to national pride is diminishing the possibility for social justice, equality, public/democratic participation that this country so sorely needs. There's no civic spirit, no civic 'friendship' and sometimes I feel we're just dragging ourselves down because we're not patriotic enough.

Never a truer word. Irish Patriotism is sadly versed in negative terms, being patriotic should be about paying ones due taxes, not polluting your envionment, helping build a vaible society and
other dull but nessecary matters, but for many Irish being a true
patriot is about hating the English. Its no wonder this country is
full of tax-dodging chancers and low-lifes in high places.

Mike.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 05-08-2002 08:28PM

Yes

No

No

Yes

I will always stand for the anthem, whether it be at the end of the night in a pub/club or at home when a match is on the telly. I would not make other people do it though, not really my business. I do love my country but that is tempered a bit by an English-ish dad & Gf.

I don't think it is right to hate a race of people because of the actions of a few and I don't think that patriotism is a valid excuse to use when harming other people.

Mossy Monk · 05-08-2002 10:31PM

How many people here know the National Anthem, by heart?

not me. only the first few lines, but i have d/l the words and plan on learning them at some stage

How many people here, if the seen someone flying the Irish flag outside their house would say ‘Look at that lunatic’s house, he’s flying the flag and it’s not even the world cup’?

i can't say i've ever seen a house that does this. there's plenty of blue and white flags around though

How many people own a copy of the constitution?

can't say i do

How many people know the basics of Irish history, When Ireland became a republic, When Ireland became a free state? Who the first president was, etc?

i know quite a bit of it

PyjamaMan · 05-08-2002 10:37PM

Originally posted by Slutmonkey57b

The violent bigots of northern Ireland have precisely nothing to do with English people whatsoever. People who live in the mainland UK could not give half of a flying toss about the constituionality, legal ownership or otherwise of northern ireland. The British are as much victims of the bigots of Northern Ireland as the persecuted catholics.

exactly my point

sally.ie · 05-08-2002 10:49PM

darling to all your questions it's yes yes yes...i have all of the things you require of in my house...plus i have an irish flag all year round in my car ,as i drive on the motor way ...just incase i see another irish person .i.e truck driver or holiday maker ..and the responce i get from them is just lovely:))

plastic membrane · 05-08-2002 11:11PM

I consider myself a patrot, however when patriotism is used as am excuse for violence and bigotty, i get really p issed off..

cujimmy · 06-08-2002 12:13AM

Re: Irish Patriotism

quote:

Originally posted by Kappar

How many people here know the National Anthem, by heart?

Hav'nt got a bulls notion. Maybe its time for a change or upgrade

quote:

How many people here, if the seen someone flying the Irish flag outside their house would say ‘Look at that lunatic’s house, he’s flying the flag and it’s not even the world cup’?

Well i wouldn't say that, more like wan*er, and if it was outside a house here in Glasgow the windaes would be panned

quote:

How many people own a copy of the constitution?

Had one when I was doing public admin in college, not much need of it these days

quote:

How many people know the basics of Irish history, When Ireland became a republic, When Ireland became a free state? Who the first president was, etc?

Know it well

However my answers dont make me any more or less of a patriot

D-Generate · 06-08-2002 01:08AM

I consider myself patriotic however I do not hang the tri-colour outside my window. What really annoys me is how our flag was stolen by thugs, a prime example being in the recent General Election. Whenever a Sinn Féin member was elected a bunch of thugs in the constituency started waving about the Irish flag. To me they do not represent what Ireland is about. They have been connected with years of murder and destruction against innocents.

BTW I have great respect for those who took part in our fight for freedom from the years 1890 - 1926. Their cause was just due to the oppression that we suffered

stevoslice · 06-08-2002 11:36AM

1.) Know it off by heart, plus a few of the verses of the longer version.

2.) I would say, "Oh, I must be home already"

3.) Have got one but its pretty old.

4.) Yes i would say i have a good knowledge, though i still have much to learn.

Irish Patriotism

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