Importing ideas on roads / signage etc.

jrar · 06-08-2007 1:55pm #1

Most Irish people are very widely-travelled by now especially with our access to budget airlines etc. At the risk of having this thread try to embrace TOO many aspects of transport, I was wondering what aspects of transport om other countries do you feel we would beefit from here ?

I'm talking about roads/street, urban or rural, public transport in general , street furniture, signage in general, other things that struck you as being god or at least better than what we have etc. ?

Especially in terms of urbanisation, Ireland is playing catch up compared to many other European countries especially, and let's face it, we don't always make the best decisions etc. so just wondering what areas of "best practice" that others have noticed in other places that we would do well to import here ?

godtabh · 06-08-2007 3:23pm

jrar wrote:

Most Irish people are very widely-travelled by now especially with our access to budget airlines etc. At the risk of having this thread try to embrace TOO many aspects of transport, I was wondering what aspects of transport om other countries do you feel we would beefit from here ?

I'm talking about roads/street, urban or rural, public transport in general , street furniture, signage in general, other things that struck you as being god or at least better than what we have etc. ?

Especially in terms of urbanisation, Ireland is playing catch up compared to many other European countries especially, and let's face it, we don't always make the best decisions etc. so just wondering what areas of "best practice" that others have noticed in other places that we would do well to import here ?

First things first. Engineers/contractors/planner and any one involved in roads planning, design and construction needs to understand what they are doing and everything that is done is checked as detailed as possible.

fricatus · 06-08-2007 3:28pm

jrar wrote:

...so just wondering what areas of "best practice" that others have noticed in other places that we would do well to import here ?

Two words: grade separation. Not just on road junctions, but also where metro/tram lines cross major roads.

Del2005 · 06-08-2007 3:56pm

Start with the basics first. Get name plates up on all named roads so we know where we are and then put up proper direction signs so we can figure where we are going. I don't know how visitors manage around here. You have a lovely new road with good signs then next junciton and it's pot luck!!

tampopo · 06-08-2007 5:59pm

Yeah, I know all our cities are old, but I must say, I like the way the Canadian and US cities all have a lampost at each junction, right at the junction with the street name on it. It's so much handier.

Just thinking this today, in Toronto, the TTC puts bus stops AT traffic lights, so when everyone's onboard and the light goes green we're all away together. Many's the time in Ireland, the light goes green and the bus stops across the junction at a bus stop, messing things up for everyone. Also in Toronto, in 1989 every bus stop had a phone number on it and you could call it and it would tell you when the bus would be passing. Imagine that happening here, oh the silliness of that thought!!!

mickoneill30 · 06-08-2007 6:44pm

In Australia if you're parking along the side of the road, you have to face the direction the traffic is going.
I've been stuck behind many cars here as they see a spot across the road that they can get into (as long as they wait 5 mins for the traffic on the other side to clear.

joolsveer · 06-08-2007 6:58pm

Ensure that traffic lights can be seen by all traffic using the road. Fit low level lights aimed towards car drivers as in France and Spain.

ich_verschwinde · 06-08-2007 8:26pm

tampopo wrote:

Yeah, I know all our cities are old, but I must say, I like the way the Canadian and US cities all have a lampost at each junction, right at the junction with the street name on it. It's so much handier.

I firstly agree that this would be a great addition to streets here, (the street name signs here are not very visable) and I have also noticed that in the US cities, for a one way street, there is a sign directly below the street name sign with an arrow pointing in the permitted direction of that street. Here in Ireland, if there's a no entry sign, you don't enter, and if there isn't well then might be allowed through.;)

also, on motorways/DC's, i think the large overhead signs (approaching an exit) are kind of lacking here.. they have them on the M50(below), and the N25 in Cork but i havent really seen them elsewhere.. but they make a clear indication of the next exit etc. Why not make them standard on every DC??

1140006807.47483675.phphFKPPr.jpg

steve-o · 06-08-2007 8:42pm

ich_verschwinde wrote:

they make a clear indication of the next exit etc.

It's a shame the Irish version is so confusing. To many drivers, the pictured sign suggests that someone heading for the N4 needs to be in the right lane. The signs on the N7 between Belgard and Naas are particularly bad.

yayamark · 06-08-2007 8:51pm

good thread.

Few small things.

I'm a motorbike user i know a small miniorty but ive travelled accross Europe and have seen some impressive roads and infrastructure. So when traversing accross Scandanavia you have to travel on a lot of bridges which can be up high, but the difference with bridges over there is that they have wind breakers. Wind breakers are exactly what it says on the tin.On a bike you are most vulnerable to winds so wind breaker on a bridge or on any open space saves u from been suddenly thrown accross the road into oncoming traffic.Handy.

Another one which ive seen slowly coming in here is that extra grip on road surfaces at the junction to roundabouts and is also at traffic lights. Again as a biker we need all he grip on the road that we can get. I think it should be on all bends here on irelan. it shows drivers that a bend is ahead and on bad weather it assists in braking

When i was in scotland i used to see signage on the side of roads that said something like 2 this road is privately maintained by murphy ltd. If u see some defect with this road please contact 086-44----.

I know that might be a bit far fetched for Ireland but i think we should strive for it anyway.

I have a few more but cant think of them.

Roads in ireland are improving but i think too slowly

murphaph · 06-08-2007 9:33pm

steve-o wrote:

It's a shame the Irish version is so confusing. To many drivers, the pictured sign suggests that someone heading for the N4 needs to be in the right lane. The signs on the N7 between Belgard and Naas are particularly bad.

The NRA has realised the error of their ways and are currently replacing the misleading gantry signs with proper ones that don't deceive!

Before:

After:

mike65 · 06-08-2007 10:04pm

Such a simple thing too.

Mike.

jrar · 06-08-2007 11:01pm

As I suspected, a lot of dissatisfaction with the Irish "model" !! Keep them coming and I'll try to collate the particular pet hates etc.

My own suggestions for improvements would include :

A simple uniform sign indicating a village or town, meaning start of built-up 50 kph limit, and rid the countryside of the plethora of signs on approaches to villages on N-roads especially !
A simple uniform sign at the other end of the village/town preferably with a line through it indicating that the restricted speed limit area has ended etc. While we're at it, is there any way that town and village boundaries could be meaningful i.e. Mounthrath southbound on the N7 has the town sign almost 2 miles out from the actual town area !

All roadside signs (and traffic lights) to be a sensible height with unrestricted views, preferably on non-round poles to prevent weather conditions (or human hands) from re-directing them !

If approach signs for most roundabouts carry a distance advance warning plate underneath, why can't we do likewise for Yield and Stop signs especially on smaller country roads ? How many times have you rounded a bend in this country only to find yourself almost on top of a T-junction with no prior warning ?

As much as possible, at crossroads and major T-juncs, the use of traffic islands (low-level French-style ones with reflective trim are superb) and separator lanes

The payment of a reward to whoever can track down the culprits for why every traffic island that DOES exist has a sea of gravel and litter around it. Whilst we're waiting to catch the perpetrators, is there any chance that our army of council workers across the country could perhaps tidy up ?

Understanding that it is perfectly acceptable to show distances which are not exact km amounts e.g 4.6 kms is a valid distance if that's how far it is to somewhere from where the signpost is mounted !

All direction/warning signs made of proper grade reflective material

On the section of N7 recently between Newlands X and Naas in a thunderstorm - road just wasn't draining off and spray was everywhere. Same experience on other stretches of motorway in the recent past - now that we have the makings of a m-way network, is it time to introduce a lower wet weather speed limit so that we limit the possibility of pile-ups etc. ?

The issuance of glasses to all workers in the roads section of our co. cos. - it may not be a pre-requisite to be blind to work there but judging by the number of badly-placed and obscured signs on our roads, it certainly would appear to give you a headstart on the other candidates !!

Needless to say, I have loads more but I just wanted to get some idea of the depth of frustration out there at our inability to implement or execute some of the simpler things which would make life easier for all road (and rail) users

jmkennedyie · 07-08-2007 12:10am

murphaph wrote:

The NRA has realised the error of their ways and are currently replacing the misleading gantry signs with proper ones that don't deceive!

Hallelujah. That really bugged me. Hope they refit the Naas Road too, might help move traffic out of the middle lane.

Regarding other potential imports, I would like to see a bit more discipline when it comes to marking the centre line. Road markings in Spain for one seem much more engineered. If it is not safe to overtake (taking curvature, sightlines, speed limits etc. into account) then why don't we spend the few euro extra for a solid white line? Here I have also seen examples of "No Overtaking" signs both sides of the roads with a dashed line in the middle.

BrianD · 07-08-2007 1:19am

murphaph wrote:

The NRA has realised the error of their ways and are currently replacing the misleading gantry signs with proper ones that don't deceive!

Before:

After:

Isn't there a DoE "manual" on the design of these overhead fantry signs and why don't the NRA implement it?

The only problem with the revised signage is that the route number and the junction number isn't as clear as the old signage,

RadioCity · 07-08-2007 1:36am

This is the normal way for an upcoming off slip to be signed in the UK (borrowed from Highway Code online) :

jrar · 07-08-2007 9:36am

jmkennedyie wrote:

Hallelujah. Here I have also seen examples of "No Overtaking" signs both sides of the roads with a dashed line in the middle.

Ah yes, the old Irish contradictory road markings situation.

Laziness or incompetence ? - take your pick

murphaph · 07-08-2007 10:02am

This is actually the same as our standard apart from different font/bilingual. We copied ours straight from theirs but I've never seen it implemented 100% correctly. In actual fact, I think there's a lot to be said for the N31 exit sign pictured above, but if it's a better design then it should be in our signs manual.

Zoney · 07-08-2007 11:51am

Well, there are certainly far more solid lines these days than there used to be - lots more country roads with markings down the middle at all at all for one thing!

However, a complete survey and analysis of some kind would be very good, combined with setting proper speed limits related to the road condition. But that would cost a fortune - I'd rather see decent water and sewage treatment.

mike65 · 07-08-2007 4:32pm

"Ah yes but how many people are killed by bad water in Ireland"?

Mike.

Terrontress · 07-08-2007 4:48pm

One thing I saw in Mainz in Germany that was good was that all bus stops had an integrated bin on them. It was part of the design of the stops.

jrar · 08-08-2007 9:56am

Ah yes, the best things are usually the simple little things !

Mind you, there was a time in Dublin when every bus-stop seemed to have a bin attached but then the move towards free-standing bins became the norm and you don't see it much anymore.

Terrontress · 08-08-2007 10:28am

These bins were actually integrated into the design of the bus stop structure. There were two poles in the ground which widened out to accomodate the bin.

They weren't too big so I suppose they'd need regular emptying which DCC most likely wouldn't do. I walked past two massive public bins along the Dodder in Ballsbridge this morning, both of them overflowing.

dulpit · 08-08-2007 3:34pm

Something simple, when traffic lights are about to change to green, do what they do in the UK (and probably everywhere else too), have the lights switch from red to red & amber, then green... Gives people a chance to get ready to take off...

Is it me or are people ridiculously slow taking off from traffic lights, especially where the lights are only green for a very short while...

RadioCity · 08-08-2007 5:39pm

Is it me or are people ridiculously slow taking off from traffic lights, especially where the lights are only green for a very short while...

eg : leaving Dublin Airport at the Airport rounabout? I'd guarantee no more than 8 vehicles can legally get through these lights in each of the 3 lanes.

I think that the amber light "wakes" motorists up as it is the brightest light of the 3 colours used-and that has nothing to do with how powerful the bulb is...
But then not many places has traffic light sequences as complicated as some in the Republic of Ireland. At "short" green lights ones concentration does tend to slip away.

Terrontress · 08-08-2007 5:49pm

As I understand it, Ireland follows an American model with traffic instruction and the UK follows the European. In the States the lights go directly to green, most of Europe it is red amber then green. Other instances of this are the yellow diamond warning signs where the rest of Europe has the white triangles with red edges.

cooperguy · 08-08-2007 11:02pm

What about being able to turn left at a red light if the way is clear? Thats something else that could be handy to start over here

murphaph · 08-08-2007 11:29pm

cooperguy wrote:

What about being able to turn left at a red light if the way is clear? Thats something else that could be handy to start over here

Yeah, the states allows "right on red" at most junctions. Germany has adopted a system that was prevalent across the DDR before unification. It's called the Gruenpfeil or 'green arrow' and is dead simple: At junctions where it's safe to do so, a small green arrow is tacked onto the side of the red light and indicates right turning is allowed.

The above pic also shows a clever addition in the event of the lights failing-a yield sign. A trip up north also reveals simple things like 'part time signals' which only switch on when traffic is heavy enough to warrant it.

Zoney · 09-08-2007 12:40am

I think the recent method here of doing that is better, a flashing amber arrow for left-turn (incidentally these usually also have a yield sign). That also allows orange and red as well if left-turns have to be stopped just for the pedestrian sequence.

Admittedly it means that motorists turning left are *always* given a
"proceed with caution" type signal, even when there's no traffic on the cross-road approaching from right, but sure that's no harm - there might well be pedestrians crossing on red man.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-08-2007 2:55am

Red & amber wouldn't work here - or, at least, there'd be a rather nasty period of adaptation when drivers would have to learn to actually stop on red not red+x seconds. Problem is that the ones offending often aren't the ones who get hurt.

Wet weather speed limit - the danger of knocking the speed limit down by say 20km/h, French style, on main roads in the wet is that it implies that the reduced speed limit is safe, it may not be. Better to properly educate/train drivers and have strict enforcement of tailgating and improper use of lights.

Last year I drove from Sydney to Cairns and every 2+1 / 2+2 stretch had very prominent signs:

KEEP LEFT
UNLESS OVERTAKING

Can I order about 50,000 of those for over here please?

Terrontress · 09-08-2007 11:13am

murphaph wrote:

Yeah, the states allows "right on red" at most junctions. Germany has adopted a system that was prevalent across the DDR before unification. It's called the Gruenpfeil or 'green arrow' and is dead simple: At junctions where it's safe to do so, a small green arrow is tacked onto the side of the red light and indicates right turning is allowed.

The above pic also shows a clever addition in the event of the lights failing-a yield sign. A trip up north also reveals simple things like 'part time signals' which only switch on when traffic is heavy enough to warrant it.

I was in Germany when that was being introduced, around 2000 IIRC. There were loads of posters up on billboards about the introduction of it.

I know people in Ireland who watch the lights in the other direction so they can go when it turns red, instead of waiting untill their light goes green. I have also seen many people blatantly running lights after they turn red.

It's a wonder they don't meet each other.

tampopo · 09-08-2007 3:22pm

One other thing I noticed in the US was that for every white line on a freeway there are about half a dozen cats eyes. So, it's less easy to drift out of your lane by accident. You get the big rumple rumple sound to warn you and get you back on track.

Maskhadov · 09-08-2007 5:10pm

murphaph wrote:

The NRA has realised the error of their ways and are currently replacing the misleading gantry signs with proper ones that don't deceive!

Before:

After:

They really should use as much of the canvas as possible and make the signs as big as possible.

murphaph · 09-08-2007 8:13pm

I'd like to imprt the german way of operating ppedestrian crossings at junctions-they just go green at the same time as traffic heading in that direction and traffic MUST yield to peds. It means traffic flows more often and so the junction is much more efficient-however-it requires driver education and discipline to work! won't be seeing that anytime soon then.

dRNk SAnTA · 11-08-2007 1:07am

I am living in Vancouver at the moment and its just a different class over here. I'd like to see a couple of changes to improve our urban landscapes.

I'd like to see the street names on a pole at every junction, as they have here in Vancouver.

But most of all, I can't stand they way in Ireland every single meaningless road sign and traffic light sits on its own galvanised steel pole. In vancouver they manage to attach almost everything to the street lamppost. traffic lights, road signs, street names, and even the power lines for the trolley buses hang from the lampposts. and all the lampposts are green rather than ugly grey!

i think in ireland when it comes to signage, we need to just tear everything up and start again.

BrianD · 11-08-2007 3:04pm

Maskhadov wrote:

They really should use as much of the canvas as possible and make the signs as big as possible.

just looking at the picrure (few posts above) I wonder how many of our trained drivers will take to driving in the hard shoulder in advance of their turn off??

Have the overhead signs on the N7 and N2 been changed? It is amazing the amount of metal work used to hold up a small sign!!

Also has these overheads are not lit at night it is going to be hard to see the junction number. Would be better if it was included on the signage as well.

_Kaiser_ · 11-08-2007 4:27pm

Maskhadov wrote:

They really should use as much of the canvas as possible and make the signs as big as possible.

Good point. I'm not sure why they erected massive gantries and then only use half of the space - the new signs are definitely an improvement though.

murphaph · 11-08-2007 6:47pm

the gantries were built wide enough for D3M carriageways.

BrianD · 11-08-2007 9:30pm

I was driving on the M50 today, it seems that very few of the overhead signs have actually changed. Is the example in the photo a one-off?

murphaph · 11-08-2007 9:44pm

No, the sh!tty 3 panel ones on the M11 southbound before the R somethingorother exit for Bray North and both northbound ones on the M11 approaching M50 diverge have also been changed to 2 panel designs which accurately reflects the lane drops and don't duplicate information across both mainline lanes. They're rather neat actually.

jrar · 11-08-2007 10:03pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

I
But most of all, I can't stand they way in Ireland every single meaningless road sign and traffic light sits on its own galvanised steel pole. In vancouver they manage to attach almost everything to the street lamppost. traffic lights, road signs, street names, and even the power lines for the trolley buses hang from the lampposts. and all the lampposts are green rather than ugly grey!

i think in ireland when it comes to signage, we need to just tear everything up and start again.

I whole-heartedly agree - for example, there's approx. 4 x traffic islands on the N3-Clonee junction flyover, and I recall being so amazed at the sheer volume of grey/steel poles across the junction supporting the various different signs (mostly badly-placed or obscured !) that I counted them one morning and reckoned that there were over 40 !!

My other bugbear is sticking signs on poles and having lots of pole protruding from the top - either stick the sign at the top of the pole to maximise visibility, or if the sign is designed to be set lower, then order shorter poles. It all just looks so sloppy the way they do it at present !

luckat · 11-08-2007 10:17pm

Harold's Cross Bridge (Emmet Bridge to be correct) going into town: there's a sign place where logically you'd expect a no-right-turn sign, and it has a big red stroke across it like a no-right-turn sign.

So you see it from 100 metres back and, intending to go straight ahead, glide into the right-hand lane.

It's only when you become baffled at the fact that all the cars ahead of you are signalling right that you realise that it's actually a no-5-axles sign.

*Why on earth* did they place it there? Why didn't they place it on the left, on the way up towards the bridge but 10 metres back?

Once again I reiterate: the signage, the design and the placement are a project for homes for the bewildered. Occupational therapy, with a dash of sadism.

Carawaystick · 11-08-2007 11:06pm

murphaph wrote:

I'd like to imprt the german way of operating ppedestrian crossings at junctions-they just go green at the same time as traffic heading in that direction and traffic MUST yield to peds. It means traffic flows more often and so the junction is much more efficient-however-it requires driver education and discipline to work! won't be seeing that anytime soon then.

This is the way in France too. you've got to be a bit confident to walk out in front of some cars though. a bit of Gallic indifference to the drivers is needed.

A change in the law to make the onus on drivers to be responsible for all person car collisions would be needed first.

Carawaystick · 11-08-2007 11:20pm

Terrontress wrote:

As I understand it, Ireland follows an American model with traffic instruction and the UK follows the European. In the States the lights go directly to green, most of Europe it is red amber then green. Other instances of this are the yellow diamond warning signs where the rest of Europe has the white triangles with red edges.

I've only seen the red/amber before green up North and in Britain.
Most other places I've been are same as here. The lights at the far side of a junction sometimes give an indication to go here but it's a bit dangerous in anything above zero traffic to go right at the change here.

In Karnataka in India, a few of the lights have countdown timers for motor traffic, similar to the system at some pedestrian crossings in Dublin city. If you're not bigger than everything else or a bovine, you'ld want to be out of the way 3 or 4 seconds before lift off...

The Irish signs are bigger though, you can fit more on the diamond than a triangle, I think this is a good thing.

One thing that might be worth a try is in Spain most one horse towns have a set of traffic lights. these are on a sensor so they go red as a car approaches but if you stay below the speed limit they go green before you reach them.
Obviously not good for heavy trafficed routes, but very effective, you figure it out easily enough in Spain so with a bit of advertising here it'd be a good idea.

BrianD · 12-08-2007 11:43am

murphaph wrote:

No, the sh!tty 3 panel ones on the M11 southbound before the R somethingorother exit for Bray North and both northbound ones on the M11 approaching M50 diverge have also been changed to 2 panel designs which accurately reflects the lane drops and don't duplicate information across both mainline lanes. They're rather neat actually.

I see the still have that daft 2 panel design at what AA roadwatch like to call the "M50/M11 merge". BTW shoule this junction be called 17 when it is still on the M11? It odd seems that when you are on the route that you have to exit the M11 to stay on it? Surely Exit 17 should be changed to the correct exit number for the M11 (even if you have to technically exit it)?

I also notice that the M11 now has junction numbers as well.

luckat · 12-08-2007 12:02pm

May I offer a paranoid (but not serious) suggestion? Perhaps the companies that make satnavs have bribed the road signage designers and workmen to make the signs as awful as posible so people will have to buy satnavs? Hmmm, and of course they'd have to bribe all the guys putting street names up - or rather, not putting them up - too.

jrar · 12-08-2007 12:37pm

Carawaystick wrote:

This is the way in France too. you've got to be a bit confident to walk out in front of some cars though. a bit of Gallic indifference to the drivers is needed.

A change in the law to make the onus on drivers to be responsible for all person car collisions would be needed first.

Plus can you imagine the amount of rear-ending that would go on here as driver number 2 ploughs into the back of driver 1 who as s/he turned left, had to brake sharply to aloow a pedestrian to cross over in fromt of them !

steve-o · 12-08-2007 1:30pm

luckat wrote:

Harold's Cross Bridge (Emmet Bridge to be correct) going into town

That's also an example of the terrible lane layouts at many Dublin junctions. The left lane approaching the junction is a bus lane. The right lane is the traffic lane. The bus lane ends just before the junction. There is a lot of right turning traffic so unless traffic is very light and there are no right-turners all traffic going straight ahead has to change lane at the end of the bus lane. If the lights are red, no-one is quite sure if they should line up in the bus lane or push in to the left lane at the end of the bus lane (annoying the drivers who've chosen to line up in the bus lane). There are many other examples exactly the same.

murphaph · 12-08-2007 1:57pm

steve-o wrote:

That's also an example of the terrible lane layouts at many Dublin junctions. The left lane approaching the junction is a bus lane. The right lane is the traffic lane. The bus lane ends just before the junction. There is a lot of right turning traffic so unless traffic is very light and there are no right-turners all traffic going straight ahead has to change lane at the end of the bus lane. If the lights are red, no-one is quite sure if they should line up in the bus lane or push in to the left lane at the end of the bus lane (annoying the drivers who've chosen to line up in the bus lane). There are many other examples exactly the same.

The driver's who've lined up in the bus lane are in breach of the law and will be inconveniencing bus users who don't take up anywhere near as much roadspace. The layout may be bad but irish drivers are worse!

axer · 12-08-2007 2:12pm

I have just started driving here in Germany and have noticed the amount of little things whilst reading the rules of the road. They have alot of laws when it comes to driving.

One of the things that sticks out most is the right of way system they use. In most towns traffic coming from your right will ALWAYS have right of way even if you think you are on the main road unless there is a sign telling you otherwise. They use it as a way to slow down motorists because since you have to make sure that no traffic is coming from the next road when you pass it then you have to drive slowly.

Their autobahn signage is so well thought out. They have permanent diversion signs at all the exits so that if a piece of autobahn is shut down it is very easy to take a diversion as the signs will guide you all the way around the stretch of autobahn you wish to avoid.

spacetweek · 12-08-2007 6:11pm

RadioCity wrote:

This is the normal way for an upcoming off slip to be signed in the UK (borrowed from Highway Code online) :

This image is an example of why British motorway signage is very poor compared to other countries (though not us).

murphaph wrote:

The NRA has realised the error of their ways and are currently replacing the misleading gantry signs with proper ones that don't deceive!

I've also noticed that new signage configuration. It's a huge improvement. Now they need to go over the new N7, and the rest of the M50, and roll it out.

Importing ideas on roads / signage etc.

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