Need to vent my anger - slow drivers

iblis · 07-08-2007 07:58PM

Darragh29 wrote:

Yeah, or the more likely scenario could be that the driver in front is overtaking at 120KPH another driver to his/her left and has you behind them who see's them as a hinderance to you who wants to continue doing 140KPH, because maybe you're another guy with bigger discs than other road users.

lol, have you ever driven on a motorway? It's quite normal to see people sitting in the overtaking lane when there is nothing in the inside lane. Also to see them moving along at the same speed as the inside lane, regardless of their proximity to the speed limit.

_Kaiser_ · 07-08-2007 07:58PM

Darragh29 wrote:

Yeah, or the more likely scenario could be that the driver in front is overtaking at 120KPH another driver to his/her left and has you behind them who see's them as a hinderance to you who wants to continue doing 140KPH, because maybe you're another guy with bigger discs than other road users.

"Clever" quips aside, first off I don't speed on the motorways myself. My point was that it's not up to you (me, or anyone else except the Gardai) to enforce the road traffic laws.

Incidentially, MarkN does have a legitimate point. Weight, tyres and several other factors have an impact on how a car behaves (and thus how safe it is) at speed.

There's also the fact that 120 km/h on your speedometer may not in fact BE 120 km/h of actual road speed (given there's about a 10% margin of error), nor may it be 120 km/h as displayed in someone else's car.

You keep asking for links and legislation to show that you're wrong to be taking this "vigilante approach" on the roads, however I'd like you to show just one that says you are entitled to do so yourself, because as far as I'm aware, the only ones empowered to do so are the Gardai .

TBH, I'm starting to think you're just trolling now

cyclopath2001 · 07-08-2007 08:08PM

iblis wrote:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a9

9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right.
So if it's safe for them to move over to the left and they do not, then yes. It is against the law.

You missed the bit about the left-hand edge of the roadway being marked by a broken yellow line. Yes, a driver may should move over to the left to facilitate overtaking, if it is safe to do so, but he must remain on the roadway.

MarkN · 07-08-2007 08:20PM

Darragh29 wrote:

I've heard it all now. "My discs are bigger than your wheels so those speed limits don't apply to me, they're for you and other people with small discs!".. :cool:

Maybe I'll head off and come back when my discs are as big as yours!?!?!

Ah so you ARE the 1.1L, 0-06 in 24 seconds, bald tyres with the ignorant attitude of "I'm doing 120 so I'm going nowhere" car owner, the ones that you DO see on the 6.1 news being cut out of their car. Nice.

iblis · 07-08-2007 08:20PM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

You missed the bit about the left-hand edge of the roadway being marked by a broken yellow line. Yes, a driver may should move over to the left to facilitate overtaking, if it is safe to do so, but he must remain on the roadway.

Tough crowd...

The post I was replying to made no mention of hard shoulders, but I shall humour your post regardless.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1186516536&view=ag-view&docrank=3&numhitsfound=4&query_rule=(($query1)<=YEAR<=($query2)) AND (($query3)):legtitle AND (($query4)):number AND (($query5)):sectionno AND (($query0))&query0='hard shoulder'&docid=35105&docdb=Acts&dbname=Acts&dbname=SIs&numresults=100&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1

"public road" means any road, street, lane, footpath, square, count, alley or passage, and any part thereof, the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a road authority, and shall include any bridge, viaduct underpass, subway, tunnel, overbridge, flyover, pipe, arch, gulley, footpath, carriageways (whether single or multiple), pavement railing, fence, wall, barrier, guardrail, margins, lay-by, hard shoulder, cycle track, island, median, central reserve, channelliser, roundabout, pole, bollard, wire, cable, sign, signal or lighting forming part of the road or other similar structure forming part of the road necessary for the Safety, convenience or amenity of road users;

Now that doesn't say move into the hard shoulder, but it says it's part of the public road which leads me to wonder why you are requesting proof that what you say is wrong? Why not provide proof what you say regarding hard shoulders is true? That's what I'm being asked to do... However, it was certainly part of the Rules Of The Road booklet when I did the driving test.

cyclopath2001 · 07-08-2007 09:12PM

iblis wrote:

Tough crowd...The post I was replying to made no mention of hard shoulders, but I shall humour your post regardless.

That's most gracious of you. Of course, the term 'hard shoulder' has no legal meaning and we're talking 'roadway' here, not 'public road'.

iblis wrote:

9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway

Earlier postings insisted that slower drivers should move onto the hard shoulder to allow others to pass.

The ROTR (which has no force of law) does mention this concept and it has often been interpreted as meaning that it's OK to pull over and continue drive along the hard shoulder while allowing others to pass. I was clarifying that the statutes require motorists to drive on the roadway and further clarify that the roadway ends where it's marked with a broken yellow line.

So, therefore, it's both unreasonable and illegal for fast drivers to expect slower drivers to move over and drive along the hard shoulder, even partly.

Since the ROTR cannot contradict the law, this means that the intended meaning was to suggest that particularly slow moving vehicles (such as tractors pulling loads) might pull over and stop to allow traffic to pass. Of course, they're under no legal obligation to do so unless instructed by a member of the Gardai at the time.

iblis · 07-08-2007 10:56PM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

That's most gracious of you. Of course, the term 'hard shoulder' has no legal meaning and we're talking 'roadway' here, not 'public road'.

Earlier postings insisted that slower drivers should move onto the hard shoulder to allow others to pass.

The ROTR (which has no force of law) does mention this concept and it has often been interpreted as meaning that it's OK to pull over and continue drive along the hard shoulder while allowing others to pass. I was clarifying that the statutes require motorists to drive on the roadway and further clarify that the roadway ends where it's marked with a broken yellow line.

So, therefore, it's both unreasonable and illegal for fast drivers to expect slower drivers to move over and drive along the hard shoulder, even partly.

Since the ROTR cannot contradict the law, this means that the intended meaning was to suggest that particularly slow moving vehicles (such as tractors pulling loads) might pull over and stop to allow traffic to pass. Of course, they're under no legal obligation to do so unless instructed by a member of the Gardai at the time.

I can't help but notice you have not provided the legal references? This seems to be a requirement in this thread now.

I do not agree with what you say about the Rules Of The Road. I do not believe they were talking about tractors pulling over to stop. I pull in all the time when I can see that there are no junctions or obstructions ahead. I have allowed Garda vehicles to pass many times this way. I would expect I would have been stopped at some point if I was breaking the law?

Furthermore it would introduce an element where if you come to a stop on a hard shoulder, it would be illegal to accelerate to the speed of the traffic in the hard shoulder prior to joining the "roadway". Instead you would, technically, have to pull directly out onto what could be a national primary route, and accelerate in the "roadway". How smart is that on a road with a 100kmh speed limit? (It reminds me of another issue I have with drivers who do not accelerate to a safe speed before joining a motorway. Most seem to join at 70-80kph. This is so incredibly dangerous in the wet. Slower is not always better.)

Anyway, this is veering away from my point. I never once mentioned making use of the hard shoulder except in one post to say something like "it doesn't have to involve hard shoulders". My whole point was that people could have a positive impact on road safety by being more considerate to other users (be they faster or slower) and not simply getting frustrated and making life for people who wish to travel at other speeds (be they faster or slower) more difficult, which causes that second party to have less patience for members of the first group, who in turn have less patience for the second group,... and so the circle turns.

If you've something to say about that, knock yourself out. If you've legal evidence that using a hard shoulder to let someone pass is illegal post it up, I'd be delighted to be corrected if I am wrong. I'm not interested in rambling on about what's a "roadway" when it was never part of my point and you have no evidence whatsoever to support what your saying.

iblis · 07-08-2007 10:59PM

Actually the 2007 rules of the road are available here: http://www.rsa.ie/PUBLICATIONS/upload/File/ROTR_2007.pdf

It clearly states:
A single broken yellow line along the side of the road

This road contains a hard shoulder, which is normally only for pedestrians and cyclists.

If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or entrances are nearby.

So I don't know where you got your information from, but you are misleading people. Either that or the ROTR DO contradict legislation. Hmmm....

It also goes on about how the outside lane is for overtaking only:
Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

I do not understand why there are people on the road that don't know these things.

vector · 08-08-2007 12:44AM

The type of person that drives at 50mph on a 60mph road actually drives at 50mph everywhere, I've seen it so many times, when they reach a 30mph zone they continue driving at 50mph.

A message to all motorists if you must drive slowly for whatever reason then take back back roads where your slowness will be an actually commendable, and if you must take main roads then pull in from time to time and let the built up traffic pass by

cyclopath2001 · 08-08-2007 07:06AM

iblis wrote:

I can't help but notice you have not provided the legal references? ....If you've legal evidence that using a hard shoulder to let someone pass is illegal post it up,

This has been the subject of a long thread elsewhere, but I'm happy to oblige.

If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly

Define 'pull in', do you mean 'pull in and come to a stop' or 'pull in and continue driving'?

So I don't know where you got your information from...and you have no evidence whatsoever to support what your saying.

The Irish Statute Book?

Roads Act, 1993
"roadway" means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;

S.I. No. 181/1997 — Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations, 1997.
28. Traffic sign number RRM 025 shall—
(a) indicate the line of the edge of a roadway, other than a motorway, and
(b) consist of a broken yellow line along the edge of a roadway, consisting of segments not less than 100 millimetres and not more than 150 millimetres wide, approximately 2 metres long and approximately 2 metres apart.

S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997
9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway...

Since the ROTR is not a legal document, let's exclude it from a discussion of the law.

iblis wrote:

If you've something to say about that, knock yourself out. If you've legal evidence that using a hard shoulder to let someone pass is illegal post it up, I'd be delighted to be corrected if I am wrong. I'm not interested in rambling on about what's a "roadway" when it was never part of my point

I agree with you that people should drive considerately, but they must also observe the law when attempting to do so. This means that they can only drive on the roadway. The reason why the law does not state it is illegal to drive on a hard shoulder is because the term 'hard shoulder' does not exist in the law. It is only legal to drive on a roadway and that is why the definition of a roadway is important.

Heinrich · 08-08-2007 07:31AM

Mortmain wrote:

i ... wonder ... if ... i ... sit... in ... the ... typing ... lane and ... type ... really ... really ... slowly ... will ... it ... annoy ... the ... pedants ... or ... make ... them ... more ... impatient ...;)

Off...topic...I...know...but...the...pendant...who...wants...to...type...with...three...full...stops...instead...of...a...space...between...words...can...do...this...automatically...with...a...decent...word...processor....Now...if...the...impatient...reader...of...pedantic...text...is...prone...to...annoyance...he...can...remove...the...three...full...stops...automatically...with...a...decent...word...processor!

Patience...is...a...virtue....

iblis · 08-08-2007 07:41AM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Define 'pull in', do you mean 'pull in and come to a stop' or 'pull in and continue driving'?

That is an exact quote from the ROTR, I mean nothing by it. However, I think it is clear what is intended to be understood from that paragraph. Not trying to be smart here, you have made a valid point (the first if I'm not mistaken), but it is not in the section on agricultural vehicles.

I'm also curious as to what you make of the pulling out on to national primary routes I mentioned. As I said, your point is well made, but it does introduce that, which I described above. I, as an experienced road user, consider it a massively more dangerous procedure than making use of the hard shoulder briefly to allow someone pass.

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The Irish Statute Book?

Roads Act, 1993
"roadway" means that portion of a road which is provided primarily for the use of vehicles;

S.I. No. 181/1997 — Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations, 1997.
28. Traffic sign number RRM 025 shall—
(a) indicate the line of the edge of a roadway, other than a motorway, and
(b) consist of a broken yellow line along the edge of a roadway, consisting of segments not less than 100 millimetres and not more than 150 millimetres wide, approximately 2 metres long and approximately 2 metres apart.

S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997
9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway...

Since the ROTR is not a legal document, let's exclude it from a discussion of the law.

I don't think we should exclude it. Purely because what you have demonstrated is that the Road Safety Authority is publishing a document, on which the driving test is based, which advises drivers to do what is apparently against the law. I think this is a huge issue, if seperate to my original point.

I'm sure you will agree it is not simple to find things in there [statutebook], and that is not, as such, what drivers are likely to use to define their driving practices. This is something that needs to be raised immediately with both the road safety authority and our government as this leads to immense confusion over not what people should do on the road, but even to what is legal for them to do. This could easily be considered a factor in road safety itself.

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I agree with you that people should drive considerately, but they must also observe the law when attempting to do so. This means that they can only drive on the roadway. The reason why the law does not state it is illegal to drive on a hard shoulder is because the term 'hard shoulder' does not exist in the law. It is only legal to drive on a roadway and that is why the definition of a roadway is important.

The ROTR states that a broken yellow line indicates a hard shoulder that can be used as I quoted above. Not the edge of the roadway. That is what concerns me. They contradict eachother dramatically. One says "you should do this" the other says "doing this is illegal". That is absolutely ridiculous!

MrPudding · 08-08-2007 07:56AM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Since the ROTR is not a legal document, let's exclude it from a discussion of the law.

Are you, or is anyone, aware of a single person that has been prosecuted, successfully or otherwise, for following the rules of the road? Something tells me that would be a hard sell in court.

Police: So you see you honor, he is obviously as guilty as sin....
Judge: But he appears to have been following the rules of the road.
Police: Ah your honor, rookie mistake, you see, the rules of the road are not a legal document.
Judge: Then why do we insist learners learn it and use it as a basis for driving?
Police: Hmmm, oh. Ok, how about this the actual thing that he did might not be in the rules of the road, per se....
Judge: What do you mean?
Police: Well some of the rules are open to interpretation..
Judge: Did the defendent make a reasonable effort to interpret the rule?
Police: Well yes, but, in our opinion he picked the wrong way...
Judge: But was it reasonable?
Police: Well I suppose.
Judge: Case dismissed.

That is how it should and I hope would go.

MrP

Andrewf20 · 08-08-2007 09:43AM

iblis wrote:

So what's your point now? Irish traffic law is stupid? If that's your opinion how could you possibly criticise people who exceed the speed limit as defined by Irish traffic law?

Why not start thinking before typing in anger?

I think that the tussle betweens yourselfs is to do with the fact that an objective/fixed speed limit clashes with the subjective question: What is dangerous driving?, and the notion that speeds exceeding the speed limit may not be considered dangerous driving, while driving at 60mph in black ice on the M50 would be.

A clamp down on dangerous driving needs to be the focus, and looking at speed alone is not looking at the bigger picture.

craichoe · 08-08-2007 11:16AM

Jaysus, would ye chill out.

I've seen too much dangerous overtaking because someone becomes frustrated, people should relax, driving is not like a train, these are delays because you are using a shared transport network. You have to accept these delays and accept you may be 10 - 15 minutes late. If your unhappy with your arrival time, then leave earlier to compensate for this possible delay.

Also, driving in the hard shoulder is extremely dangerous, fallen trees / debris are usually pushed in here and are hard to spot at night, since theres no reflective material etc. I have seen a car drive straight into a fallen tree, pulling in for someone to overtake.

Overtaking is fine as long as its safe, although in my own personal experience I have not seen much safe overtaking on our roads, except perhaps on a motorway/dual carriageway. An unbelievable amount of undertaking occurs on these also though.

Basically what i'm saying is, It doesn't matter who is right or wrong with regard to the rules of the road etc. People should work more on keeping their cool.

For example, Your on 2 way street thats wide enough for 1 car to pass, do you:

A. Reverse up and give him space to get past you using about 2 minutes of your time.
or
B. Sit there for 20 minutes while cars start to stack up behind you and him eventually causing an altercation whereby one guy goes to get a baseball bat from his boot and the other then drives up on the kerb hitting someone and ramming the cars out of his way.

Which seems better ?

MrPudding · 08-08-2007 12:26PM

craichoe wrote:

Jaysus, would ye chill out.

I've seen too much dangerous overtaking because someone becomes frustrated, people should relax, driving is not like a train, these are delays because you are using a shared transport network. You have to accept these delays and accept you may be 10 - 15 minutes late. If your unhappy with your arrival time, then leave earlier to compensate for this possible delay.

This is a bit of a crap argument. I am sure most people have left in plenty of time to get somewhere but have found the delays to be even more than planned for. I have travelled in Ireland and allowed a extra hour for a trip only to be late or just in time.

A lot of drivers may be able to accept being 10 or 15 minutes late. Unfortunately their boss or customer may not be so accommodating.

craichoe wrote:

Also, driving in the hard shoulder is extremely dangerous, fallen trees / debris are usually pushed in here and are hard to spot at night, since theres no reflective material etc. I have seen a car drive straight into a fallen tree, pulling in for someone to overtake.

Yes, if only we had some kind of organ in our head which would allow us to check the hardshoulder before pulling into it slightly to allow someone to pass. Boy that would be handy. I will pull in to let a faster traveller past, but only when I believe there is no risk to me or other road users when I do. For example, I would not pull in if there was a fallen tree, I believe that would make me at least mildly retarded. Additionally, I will not fully pull into the HS, just enough to let the car past.

craichoe wrote:

Overtaking is fine as long as its safe, although in my own personal experience I have not seen much safe overtaking on our roads, except perhaps on a motorway/dual carriageway. An unbelievable amount of undertaking occurs on these also though.

I find I do not do a lot of overtaking when I am in the car. I am pretty conservative in my overtaking and I am quite happy, for the most part, to wait until I am sure it is a safe option. I do get annoyed when someone is driving well below the limit and allows cars to back up behind them. On the bike it is slightly different and overtaking is so much easier.

craichoe wrote:

Basically what i'm saying is, It doesn't matter who is right or wrong with regard to the rules of the road etc. People should work more on keeping their cool.

How does it not matter? It is pretty much all that matters. The rules of the road are there for a reason. If people drove as per the rules, with a sprinkling of consideration for other road users, the roads would be a road safer and less frustrating place to be.

craichoe wrote:

For example, Your on 2 way street thats wide enough for 1 car to pass, do you:

A. Reverse up and give him space to get past you using about 2 minutes of your time.
or
B. Sit there for 20 minutes while cars start to stack up behind you and him eventually causing an altercation whereby one guy goes to get a baseball bat from his boot and the other then drives up on the kerb hitting someone and ramming the cars out of his way.

Which seems better ?

Pretty simplistic example when you consider what we are talking about, but, for me the person that can most easily and safely get out of the way should. In an ideal world you would not be in this position.

MrP

Darragh29 · 08-08-2007 01:16PM

MarkN wrote:

Ah so you ARE the 1.1L, 0-06 in 24 seconds, bald tyres with the ignorant attitude of "I'm doing 120 so I'm going nowhere" car owner, the ones that you DO see on the 6.1 news being cut out of their car. Nice.

Don't think so mate. But I wouldn't have the neck to come on here and say that because I drive a particular car that I'm immune from speed limits on motorways or any other road(s). I don't think I've ever heard a more childish remark on these boards than the one you made about the size of your discs, I literally cringed when I read that. The worst kind of driver you can hope to meet on the roads in this country is the one who thinks he is indestructable or invinsible by virtue of the car that he drives, that sounds like you tbh.

MarkN · 08-08-2007 01:22PM

Darragh29 wrote:

Don't think so mate. But I wouldn't have the neck to come on here and say that because I drive a particular car that I'm immune from speed limits on motorways or any other road(s). I don't think I've ever heard a more childish remark on these boards than the one you made about the size of your discs, I literally cringed when I read that. The worst kind of driver you can hope to meet on the roads in this country is the one who thinks he is indestructable or invinsible by virtue of the car that he drives, that sounds like you tbh.

Firstly, I didn't say I speed or was above any laws.

And secondly, you seem to be the only one "cringing", as the other experienced drivers here, took my point for exactly what it was - showing you not all cars can be judged the same and what might not be safe for one car would be perfectly safe for another. You were basing your own experience and your own car's performance and telling everyone they are in the same boat. I think even you will agree that brakes and their performance is fairly important and the fact that you took issue with that point says you don't know the first thing about driving a high performance car and how much safer they are then your typical Irish car that you see involved in crashes. :rolleyes:

Now before you think up your next reply, just ACCEPT that most people here disagreed with you, most thought you were trying to impose your own little 'Darragh laws' and be done with it.

craichoe · 08-08-2007 01:38PM

MrPudding wrote:

This is a bit of a crap argument. I am sure most people have left in plenty of time to get somewhere but have found the delays to be even more than planned for. I have travelled in Ireland and allowed a extra hour for a trip only to be late or just in time.

A lot of drivers may be able to accept being 10 or 15 minutes late. Unfortunately their boss or customer may not be so accommodating.

I have traveled from Dublin to Cork and it took on some occasions 6-7 hours .. and I do travel that road on a regular basis. I don't understand how you can argue with this ? If a person overtakes because they are frustrated/pissed off/impatient shouldn't they work on not feeling that way and accept that they'll just have to wait. Or is it some type of ego thing ?

If a walkway is crowded, i don't go pushing people out of the way or shouting at them, i'll wait and get through when theres a convenient time.

If theres someone ahead of you in a queue in a shop fumbling to get money out of their pocket, should they get out of your way too, because your in such a rush ?

The speed limit is a limit, if the guy in front is driving at a speed at which he feels safe then so be it, you'll just have to wait, then overtake if you get a chance.

Yes, if only we had some kind of organ in our head which would allow us to check the hardshoulder before pulling into it slightly to allow someone to pass. Boy that would be handy. I will pull in to let a faster traveller past, but only when I believe there is no risk to me or other road users when I do. For example, I would not pull in if there was a fallen tree, I believe that would make me at least mildly retarded. Additionally, I will not fully pull into the HS, just enough to let the car past.

If you read the post i made i said "At Night". People need to wear reflective gear at night and cars have rear reflectors. How exactly are you going to see an obstruction maybe 300 metres up the road and avoid it if the driver behind you is overtaking ? Excuse me, but theres no way you can see a tree or log or something non reflective at night 300 metres away while your travelling at 80-100kph

Pretty simplistic example when you consider what we are talking about, but, for me the person that can most easily and safely get out of the way should. In an ideal world you would not be in this position.

I mean come on.... a "SAFELY GET OUT OF MY WAY" attitude is a great attitude to have i'm sure. Hope that works out well for you

Work on your frustration and dealing with your own feelings, this is the way it is, so deal with it or you'll end up with an ulcer.

vector · 08-08-2007 01:50PM

>If a walkway is crowded, i don't go pushing people out of the way or shouting >at them, i'll wait and get through when theres a convenient time.

incorrect, if a footpath in corkcity has a pedestrian traffic jame because someone at the front is walking slowly window shopping then people will "pass" them by walking onto the street, no one physically "pushes" anyone

but alas this is not a perfect comparison, as a window shopper will keep into the buildings whereas a slow driver often hugs the centre white line stopping others from passing

iblis · 08-08-2007 02:04PM

craichoe wrote:

Also, driving in the hard shoulder is extremely dangerous, fallen trees / debris are usually pushed in here and are hard to spot at night, since theres no reflective material etc. I have seen a car drive straight into a fallen tree, pulling in for someone to overtake.

I agree about the at night thing outside of streetlit areas. My point, and I'm not suggesting you are arguing with me, is as I have said many times already, that if it is safe to do so, why not let people past? I think I've made a fair point that it could positively affect road safety, but I won't bore everyone by repeating myself again.

craichoe wrote:

Basically what i'm saying is, It doesn't matter who is right or wrong with regard to the rules of the road etc. People should work more on keeping their cool.

This actually is part of my point too. I've been going on and on about frustration and how it helps nothing. If someone behind you is annoying you and you can let them by safely, then do. And you've no reason to be frustrated anymore. Sometimes just making it clear you are aware of the other driver is enough to make it safe for them to pass.

MrPudding · 08-08-2007 02:41PM

craichoe wrote:

I have traveled from Dublin to Cork and it took on some occasions 6-7 hours .. and I do travel that road on a regular basis. I don't understand how you can argue with this ? If a person overtakes because they are frustrated/pissed off/impatient shouldn't they work on not feeling that way and accept that they'll just have to wait. Or is it some type of ego thing ?

So now we are looking at leaving the day before to get there on time? Can you not see why people get frustrated. And please read my post, I clearly said I will sit behind someone until I think it is safe to overtake. If I am not in a hurry I will pull in somewhere and wait for a gap to open.

craichoe wrote:

The speed limit is a limit, if the guy in front is driving at a speed at which he feels safe then so be it, you'll just have to wait, then overtake if you get a chance.

Yes. Where have I said anything different. At the same time, it does no harm for a slower driver to let a faster one past, assuming it is safe to do so.

craichoe wrote:

If you read the post i made i said "At Night". People need to wear reflective gear at night and cars have rear reflectors. How exactly are you going to see an obstruction maybe 300 metres up the road and avoid it if the driver behind you is overtaking ? Excuse me, but theres no way you can see a tree or log or something non reflective at night 300 metres away while your travelling at 80-100kph

You see it wouldn’t then be a problem. You should always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I would not move to a part of the road / hardshoulder, unless I thought it was safe to do so. If I could only see 150 metres and did not think the guy behind me could not complete his manoeuvre in that distance, I would not pull in.[/quote]

craichoe wrote:

I mean come on.... a "SAFELY GET OUT OF MY WAY" attitude is a great attitude to have i'm sure. Hope that works out well for you

Work on your frustration and dealing with your own feelings, this is the way it is, so deal with it or you'll end up with an ulcer.

I don’t get frustrated. If I can get past safely I will, if I can’t I don’t really care. If someone moves over and lets me past they will get a wave.

All I was trying to say in my post is that it can be frustrating when a driver is driving below the speed limit.

See, here is how I see it, my attitude is very different to yours, personally I think mine is better.

When I am on the road, either in a car or on the bike, I like to make as little impact on other road users experience as possible. If I am travelling faster I will try to pass if it is safe to do so. I will not aggressively try to bully people out of the way, but if they do move I will take advantage and give them an acknowledgement.

If I am driving along and someone gains on me, it is obvious that they are travelling faster than me. I will, assuming it is safe to do so, let them past at my earliest convenience. I will do this irrespective of what speed I am doing. I don’t care if they are speeding or not, it is none of my business. I don’t know what their story is, they might have an emergency, most likely they don’t but it is still none of my business and I don’t really care. And besides, if there is a super aggressive driver hell bent on speeding, I don’t want to be in his way. The safer option for me is to let him past. Eventually nature will take its course and he will find himself wrapped around a tree. For me this is a better outcome than his frustration building to a point where he tries a stupid overtake that goes horribly wrong and takes me out with him.

A lot of the problems with driving in Ireland come down to attitude. A lot of drivers have a really stinking attitude. They think their time is more important than other peoples and they think they are a better driver than they are and they think they know better than the road engineers and the people that decide on speed limits. Sometimes they are right, but mostly they are wrong.

Until there is a huge change in attitude the roads will be filled with people like this. What is the point in irritating them? I am sure craichoe & Darragh get great satisfaction from pretending they are doing society a favour by stopping the evil speeder but seriously, what is the point?

Get out on the road, have as little impact as you can on other users, and get home safe.

MrP

GTC · 08-08-2007 03:10PM

alanmurphy83 wrote:

At least they aren't breaking the law. People like you who cause road accidents by speeding and over-taking dangerously. No matter how pissed off you get you shouldn't endanger your life and the lives of everyone else on the roads because you are in a hurry.

As a Garda, I don't prosecute those who stray over the limit to overtake. If you slow back to a reasonable speed after the overtake, its fine by me and most other guards.

Advanced driving demands that you overtake as quickly and efficiently as possible to minimise your time across the centre of the road.

I am fond of issuing penalty points for the "Failure to Yield" offence to cars who stay in the overtaking lane where they are not overtaking any vehicles. This is also applied to truck drivers, who are banned from overtaking on motorways, unless the speed limit is below 65 kph.

If a patrol car sees you on a single lane road with a good hard shoulder, and you refuse to let other cars behind you (we're talking a few cars here) they very well might pull you over to have a chat about due care and consideration. That is an offence, do it a few times and you will be prosecuted. TBH, its one of my pet hates, these slow pokes policing the roads.

One of my colleagues had an interesting parallel.

If you went into Starbucks and ordered a coffee, you don't block the door until you're finished. Other people drink faster and have places to go. Driving is the same, be courteous and considerate. Let other drivers by where you have room and space to do so.

craichoe · 08-08-2007 03:12PM

MrPudding wrote:

So now we are looking at leaving the day before to get there on time? Can you not see why people get frustrated. And please read my post, I clearly said I will sit behind someone until I think it is safe to overtake. If I am not in a hurry I will pull in somewhere and wait for a gap to open.

Yes. Where have I said anything different. At the same time, it does no harm for a slower driver to let a faster one past, assuming it is safe to do so.

You see it wouldn’t then be a problem. You should always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I would not move to a part of the road / hardshoulder, unless I thought it was safe to do so. If I could only see 150 metres and did not think the guy behind me could not complete his manoeuvre in that distance, I would not pull in.

I don’t get frustrated. If I can get past safely I will, if I can’t I don’t really care. If someone moves over and lets me past they will get a wave.

All I was trying to say in my post is that it can be frustrating when a driver is driving below the speed limit.

See, here is how I see it, my attitude is very different to yours, personally I think mine is better.

When I am on the road, either in a car or on the bike, I like to make as little impact on other road users experience as possible. If I am travelling faster I will try to pass if it is safe to do so. I will not aggressively try to bully people out of the way, but if they do move I will take advantage and give them an acknowledgement.

If I am driving along and someone gains on me, it is obvious that they are travelling faster than me. I will, assuming it is safe to do so, let them past at my earliest convenience. I will do this irrespective of what speed I am doing. I don’t care if they are speeding or not, it is none of my business. I don’t know what their story is, they might have an emergency, most likely they don’t but it is still none of my business and I don’t really care. And besides, if there is a super aggressive driver hell bent on speeding, I don’t want to be in his way. The safer option for me is to let him past. Eventually nature will take its course and he will find himself wrapped around a tree. For me this is a better outcome than his frustration building to a point where he tries a stupid overtake that goes horribly wrong and takes me out with him.

A lot of the problems with driving in Ireland come down to attitude. A lot of drivers have a really stinking attitude. They think their time is more important than other peoples and they think they are a better driver than they are and they think they know better than the road engineers and the people that decide on speed limits. Sometimes they are right, but mostly they are wrong.

Until there is a huge change in attitude the roads will be filled with people like this. What is the point in irritating them? I am sure craichoe & Darragh get great satisfaction from pretending they are doing society a favour by stopping the evil speeder but seriously, what is the point?

Get out on the road, have as little impact as you can on other users, and get home safe.

Indeed, but what I am saying is that there is not really any safe time to drive in the hard shoulder. Regardless of the law:

A. You do not know the capabilities of the guy overtaking you, he might be hesitant or just have a car with really poor acceleration

B. You are restricting your ability to get out of an unexpected situation, such as someone pulling out of their house, pedestrians walking on the road, metal shards / nails or some other stuff on the hard shoulder. Every second the car in front of you takes to overtake you is putting you in a situation where you have no where to go in the event you need to pull back out to avoid hitting something.

C. A less experienced driver may feel that he HAS to overtake you if your pulled in to the hard shoulder.

GTC · 08-08-2007 03:19PM

craichoe wrote:

Indeed, but what I am saying is that there is not really any safe time to drive in the hard shoulder. Regardless of the law:

A. You do not know the capabilities of the guy overtaking you, he might be hesitant or just have a car with really poor acceleration

B. You are restricting your ability to get out of an unexpected situation, such as someone pulling out of their house, pedestrians walking on the road, metal shards / nails or some other stuff on the hard shoulder. Every second the car in front of you takes to overtake you is putting you in a situation where you have no where to go in the event you need to pull back out to avoid hitting something.

C. A less experienced driver may feel that he HAS to overtake you if your pulled in to the hard shoulder.

None of those arguments fit. If you can let a car by, its your decision. Its the other driver's decision to overtake or not.

No excuse for pig-headed selfishness in driving. Period

And who in the name of God would use the hard shoulder to let traffic by if there was a junction or entrance ahead. Use your judgement.

And yes, Gardaí can prosecute where you fail to yield where you have sufficient space to do so.

iblis · 08-08-2007 03:29PM

GTC wrote:

As a Garda, I don't prosecute those who stray over the limit to overtake. If you slow back to a reasonable speed after the overtake, its fine by me and most other guards.

Advanced driving demands that you overtake as quickly and efficiently as possible to minimise your time across the centre of the road.

I often wondered about this as to me it doesn't make sense to hang about when overtaking. Personally, I think it's far more pressing to get out of the opposite traffic lane than to stick rigidly to the speed limit.

I'd actually also be very interested to hear your opinion of people joining motorways, say for example where there is a double slip road, one long entry one short entry (if that makes sense) in the right hand shorter on ramp at less than lets say for arguments sake < 100kph.

It's something that frustrates me a lot because these people seem to believe they are doing something good by driving slower. However, I think in this situation it puts them and everyone behind them in danger when they try and join the faster moving traffic. They may can run out of onramp very quickly, and people behind them end up in a very awkward situation through no fault of their own.

MrPudding · 08-08-2007 03:31PM

GTC wrote:

And who in the name of God would use the hard shoulder to let traffic by if there was a junction or entrance ahead. Use your judgement.

I have been trying to explain the concept of checking before carrying out a manouvre but it seems to be beyond a few on this board. Some of the posters also seem to ignore the "if it is safe to do so.." comment which gets used. Both very worrying IMHO.

MrP

craichoe · 08-08-2007 03:32PM

GTC wrote:

None of those arguments fit. If you can let a car by, its your decision. Its the other driver's decision to overtake or not.

No excuse for pig-headed selfishness in driving. Period

And who in the name of God would use the hard shoulder to let traffic by if there was a junction or entrance ahead. Use your judgement.

And yes, Gardaí can prosecute where you fail to yield where you have sufficient space to do so.

Its not pig headed selfishness at all, i've seen it happen. A guy pulls in to let someone pass, the car begins to overtake, you end up with 3 lines of traffic, the guy in the hard shoulder has nowhere to go

In one instance, he had to brake hard as there was a car pulling out of a house so they could get a look at the road.

In the second instance the guy rolled straight over a tree, because it was at night and he couldn't move to avoid it.

Why is a Cyclist and Motorcyclist encouraged to ride more toward the center of the road and not the kerb ? Because it encourages people to overtake them, leaving them noplace to go when the unexpected happens.

And imho, a Garda can write you a ticket for whatever the hell he likes, you just have to find an offence in that big sheet on the back of the book.

Err .Parking .. too close .. or too far .. next to a traffic light, while there was an eclipse .. and she was wearing a pink .. hat .. argh .. damn it was a blue hat !

MrPudding · 08-08-2007 03:36PM

iblis wrote:

I often wondered about this as to me it doesn't make sense to hang about when overtaking. Personally, I think it's far more pressing to get out of the opposite traffic lane than to stick rigidly to the speed limit.

I'd actually also be very interested to hear your opinion of people joining motorways, say for example where there is a double slip road, one long entry one short entry (if that makes sense) in the right hand shorter on ramp at less than lets say for arguments sake < 100kph.

It's something that frustrates me a lot because these people seem to believe they are doing something good by driving slower. However, I think in this situation it puts them and everyone behind them in danger when they try and join the faster moving traffic. They may can run out of onramp very quickly, and people behind them end up in a very awkward situation through no fault of their own.

The police motorcyclist that took me for my advanced test had a great attitude. In the briefing before the test started he said "when you are overtaking I will follow you if it is safe to do so (see?there is that line again...) so I will not be looking at my speedo, I will be looking at the road, where you should be looking when you overtake. Don't take the piss." Great attitude I thought.

MrP

iblis · 08-08-2007 03:38PM

craichoe wrote:

Its not pig headed selfishness at all, i've seen it happen. A guy pulls in to let someone pass, the car begins to overtake, you end up with 3 lines of traffic, the guy in the hard shoulder has nowhere to go

In one instance, he had to brake hard as there was a car pulling out of a house so they could get a look at the road.

This was stupidity on the part of the overtaking driver. I, personally, always watch for any obstacles or hazards ahead. If a guy pulls in to a hard shoulder to let me by and there is a corner up ahead I will NOT pass him. No matter how much I want to get where I'm going. If he has to swerve out to avoid something, I'm in just as much danger as he is.

craichoe wrote:

In the second instance the guy rolled straight over a tree, because it was at night and he couldn't move to avoid it.

Well, then it wasn't safe to pull in. Was it? That should not mean never give way to faster traffic.

Need to vent my anger - slow drivers

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