Need to vent my anger - slow drivers

peasant

esel wrote:

If the car in question was not in front of you previously, then no, you can't reasonably expect that. Such assumptions are dangerous, imo.

Yes, those assumptions are dangerous ...yet we make them every second while we're driving.

We assume that no car will be on the wrong side of the road, over the continuous white line, belting along at twice the speed limit in a blind bend.

We assume that the ca thatr just started indicating left won't turn right.

We assume that the car in front of us won't just do an emergency brake for no reason.

etc, etc....


Sometimes we get proven wrong and accidents may happen.


But if we always and constantly assumed the the worst possible scenario were just about to happen ...we would all have to give up driving and walk instead.

Because driving at current speeds in traffic is not possible without assuming that all others on the road behave according to the rules (or near enough)

wingnut

What really exaserbates the issue of slow progress is tailgating. It took a year of driving in the UK to realise just how bad we Irish are at this. Cars driving at 100 kph with mere meters to seperate. Its absolutely insane! It is however syptomatic of the extrememly selfish driving practices of the people in this country in general. This plays a big factor in the inability to safely overtake.

Driving in Wales for the year was a pleasure with dual carriagways and three lane motorways not a pothole in sight. I've picked up a few grey hairs in the few weeks I've been back driving here!

Dr. Loon

peasant wrote:

Yes, those assumptions are dangerous ...yet we make them every second while we're driving.

We assume that no car will be on the wrong side of the road, over the continuous white line, belting along at twice the speed limit in a blind bend.

We assume that the ca thatr just started indicating left won't turn right.

We assume that the car in front of us won't just do an emergency brake for no reason.

etc, etc....


Sometimes we get proven wrong and accidents may happen.


But if we always and constantly assumed the the worst possible scenario were just about to happen ...we would all have to give up driving and walk instead.

Because driving at current speeds in traffic is not possible without assuming that all others on the road behave according to the rules (or near enough)

Sorry my friend but I "assume" nothing while driving! Your argument just got very weak. I've been reading this thread with bemusement 'til now. Never assume or hope anything while you drive. Which is why people should pay attention to breaking distance and simple slowing down on a blind bend.

astraboy

Pesant is the voice of reason on this thread. Cyclopath, why is it ok for someone, in your opinion, to drive 25Kph below the limit when it is safe to drive at it, not at fault when they are holding up drivers, yet someone 10Kph over the limit, when it is safe to do so, is a hazzard? Your logic is based simply on the letter of the law, a very very very foolish way to base your driving decisions and opinions on resaonable road use. I perfer the use of common sense and judgement. This means someone judges to pull over if they are going slow and holding up others unresaonably.

Vikings

Dr. Loon wrote:

Sorry my friend but I "assume" nothing while driving! Your argument just got very weak. I've been reading this thread with bemusement 'til now. Never assume or hope anything while you drive. Which is why people should pay attention to breaking distance and simple slowing down on a blind bend.

In that case you are the most dangerous driver of them all! You assume nothing? How do you manage to drive in that case?

What do you do when you see the car in front of you indicating to turn? If you assume nothing then you are going to keep on driving and plough into the back of him, right? No. You assume he is going to turn and slow down accordingly.

Peasant is right, you have to assume a lot of things when you are driving and these assumptions are made every second.. if you assume nothing then you need your head checked.

cyclopath2001

astraboy wrote:

Your logic is based simply on the letter of the law, a very very very foolish way to base your driving decisions and opinions on resaonable road use.

You misunderstand.

My argument is that there is no reason to put people off the road, if they have valid licences. It is socially unacceptable (and possibly a criminal offence) to bully or intimidate other law-abiding citizens, because their behaviour is inconvenient.

As to 'reasonable road use', from what I have seen, that's interpreted in a great variety of ways these days.

I'm still waiting for anyone to put forward credible evidence that driving within the speed limit constitutes dangerous driving.

Mitch Connor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

You misunderstand.

My argument is that there is no reason to put people off the road, if they have valid licences. It is socially unacceptable (and possibly a criminal offence) to bully or intimidate other law-abiding citizens, because their behaviour is inconvenient.

As to 'reasonable road use', from what I have seen, that's interpreted in a great variety of ways these days.

I'm still waiting for anyone to put forward credible evidence that driving within the speed limit constitutes dangerous driving.

Well, every action gets a reaction. If you decide to drive at 50kmph, on a road that is perfectly capable of allowing drivers to safely at 80kph, there is a reasonable assumption to be made that you will annoy the people behind you who want to maintain their speed. Annoyed people are more likely to do something that could be deemed stupid. Granted - they SHOULDN'T do something stupid, but that does not alter the fact that the driving style of the 'slow' driver is contributing to the situation.

peasant

cyclopath2001 wrote:

My argument is that there is no reason to put people off the road, if they have valid licences. It is socially unacceptable (and possibly a criminal offence) to bully or intimidate other law-abiding citizens, because their behaviour is inconvenient.

Well I dare you then ...get yourself a car (and valid licence) and drive up and down a motorway at 20 km/h.

Tell us how far you get before you either are involved in an accident or get a talking to by the guards.

As far as I am aware there is no law that stipulates a minimum speed for motorways ...so you'd be perfectly "legal"

Vikings

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I'm still waiting for anyone to put forward credible evidence that driving within the speed limit constitutes dangerous driving.

Have you ever even driven a car before?

Why would you even need 'evidence' of such a fact? If I was to drive at 40km/h on an 80km/h road, you can bet that there would be a tail back miles long of cars itching to get past me - by any means necessary.

Stuff like that you can't see from your saddle.

cpoh1

astraboy wrote:

This means someone judges to pull over if they are going slow and holding up others unresaonably.

And on this note i reckon the thread should finish. Even the people argueing on behalf of slow drivers know that the above is the reasonable and considerate thing to do. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a dose of driving in another country where they'd be blown off the road for their ignorance.

GTC

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Utter tosh. Drivers who allow their tempers to affect their driving are dangerous. The sooner they accumulate enough points to be be put off the road, the better.

That's a very fascist view. Perhaps these people don't live near a taxi or bus service and depend on a motor car for mobility? Is there no room in your world for people whose driving ability is, although not dangerous, inferior to your masterly control of what is, no doubt a splendid piece, of engineering?

You can take it from me that slow drivers are almost as dangerous as outright speeders. They hold up traffic and add to the danger by aggravating other drivers.

If you must drive slow because of your ability, then drive courteously and don't be afraid to let other cars past where you have room.

You seem to ignore posts which directly disprove your nonsense. Due care and consideration is demanded from all drivers. Yielding to drivers wishing to progress faster than you is essential. Can we close the thread?

richie_rvf

I believe that most times a driver who is going slowly is not totally in control - they most likely have not even noticed the cars behind them.

How many times have you seen slow drivers with the door mirrors folded in???

I think that a lot of these drivers are unsafe - because of this anytime I get caught behind one I either overtake if it is safe to do so, otherwise I slow down and drop back, tune into a good radio station and wait it out, it is just not worth risking an accident because of these people.

I completely agree that a bit of courtesy would go a long way but as I said these drivers are most likely not even aware they are causing others grief.

Richie.

cyclopath2001

Mustangs wrote:

Have you ever even driven a car before?

Many times. Indeed, after many years of cycling, I passed by driving test first time. I was surprised how easy it was. That said, I much prefer cycling to driving.

You seem to ignore posts which directly disprove your nonsense. Due care and consideration is demanded from all drivers. Yielding to drivers wishing to progress faster than you is essential. Can we close the thread?

I have ignored posts which put forward arguments which are not based on any facts.

Let me clarify: I have not said that slow drivers should not pull over and let others pass. I have stated that:

1: They should not be bullied into doing this.
2: They should not break the law by driving along the hard shoulder, even partly.
3: That others show also show due care and consideration to slow drivers.

In this thread I've seen a constant argument from drivers who think it's OK to break safety laws that other drivers who do not break any safety laws are 'dangerous' because they cause inconvenience to other drivers who are unable to control their tempers.

Maybe now would be a good time to lock the thread.

peasant

Naaahhh ...not yet.

Not while YOU have the last word

MrPudding

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Maybe now would be a good time to lock the thread.

I was kind of hoping the thread would stay open until you gave me deatils of someone who was prosecuted or even charged with a road traffic offense when they had taken a reasonable interpretation of the rules of the road.

For example. As you keep saying over and over and over and over again, you believe it is illegal to drive on the hard shoulder, even just a little bit to allow someone to pass. I am not questioning your interpretation of the relevent section of the RTA so please don't start that. As has been pointed out to you the rules of the road is quite woolly on this point and it seems to imply that you can drive on the hard shoulder to allow cars to pass.

MrP

Mitch Connor

was our member who claims to be a member of the traffic corps, GTC, on here a while back saying they would encourage people to move over into the hard shoulder (obviously where safe to do so) to allow faster moving traffic by.

Cionád

I remember seeing an irish learning to drive dvd thingy, and in the advanced driving section (i dont know how this is advanced!!) they say it is reasonable to drive on the hard shoulder temporarily to allow others to pass providing that it is bright enough and you can see the route ahead to be clear.

On a side note, what really annoys me about these slow drivers is that for the main they drive say 70km/h in an 80 zone, then when they enter a village or built up area, they DONT SLOW DOWN!!! Its crazy, I end up being right behind them if i cant safely pass until we get to the next village, we go through that, with the 'slow' driver getting a good bit away from me, then on the other side of the village I get a few mins of regular driving until im right behind the slow one again!!! so frustrating, especially if another few cars join the queue in the village, so i've to wait even longer to try to pass.

</rant>

GTC

Tauren wrote:

was our member who claims to be a member of the traffic corps, GTC, on here a while back saying they would encourage people to move over into the hard shoulder (obviously where safe to do so) to allow faster moving traffic by.

Indeed, while the law is somewhat unclear as regards driving in the hard shoulder, it would be illegal to drive in it permanently or for a period of time outside that which would be deemed necessary to allow a vehicle to pass. Driving in the hard shoulder approaching a junction where you do not intend to turn left into that junction would also be deemed fairly hazardous.

Letting a car pass you by moving into the hard shoulder is not an offence as such, and wouldn't be viewed as such by any Guard I know. If anything, it would heighten our opinion of the driver immensely.

I think it shows that there are still some really good courteous drivers out there with some decent skill.

Cappo

GTC wrote:

Indeed, while the law is somewhat unclear as regards driving in the hard shoulder, it would be illegal to drive in it permanently or for a period of time outside that which would be deemed necessary to allow a vehicle to pass. Driving in the hard shoulder approaching a junction where you do not intend to turn left into that junction would also be deemed fairly hazardous.

Letting a car pass you by moving into the hard shoulder is not an offence as such, and wouldn't be viewed as such by any Guard I know. If anything, it would heighten our opinion of the driver immensely.

I think it shows that there are still some really good courteous drivers out there with some decent skill.

Why is this answer the most sensible? Close the tread now

cyclopath2001

GTC wrote:

Indeed, while the law is somewhat unclear as regards driving in the hard shoulder,

What is unclear about 'drive on the roadway'?

You'd think I'd just gone into the Vatican to argue about transubstantiation.

MrPudding

cyclopath2001 wrote:

What is unclear about 'drive on the roadway'?

You'd think I'd just gone into the Vatican to argue about transubstantiation.

So you have an example then of someone presecuted or charged?

MrP

cyclopath2001

MrPudding wrote:

So you have an example then of someone presecuted or charged?MrP

No I do not, but the absence of this information does not make driving along the hard shoulder legal. It just indicates that maybe a blind eye is being turned to it, at least until something goes wrong that is. Then, the fact would feature in the blame game.

gyppo

Another thread developing into whether the use of the hard shoulder is ok or not - dejavu:D

My 0.02 cents worth goes as follows.
By all means, slower drivers should not impede the progress of those who want to go quicker, and should pull into the extreme left of their lane to let others go.
However - driving within the hard shoulder to facilitate others is a risky affair. Hard shoulders are often littered with tyre rims, exhaust sections, and other debris.
There are many sections of primary routes where private entrances come out on hard shoulders, and I've witnessed a very nasty accident outside Athlone, where a car emerged from a private entrance onto the hard shoulder, and straight out into the path of an oncoming car (which had pulled into the hard shoulder to allow another car to overtake him). The guy driving on the hard shoulder had nowhere to go, as there was a stone wall to his left, and the overtaking car on his right. So, should he have been there??

So, pull in as far on your left lane as you can to let others pass, but don't put yourself or others in danger to facilitate someone who's in a rush.

astraboy

cyclopath2001 wrote:

No I do not, but the absence of this information does not make driving along the hard shoulder legal. It just indicates that maybe a blind eye is being turned to it, at least until something goes wrong that is. Then, the fact would feature in the blame game.

O will you stop nit picking? If someone safety moves over to a wide hard shoulder for a few moments to allow faster traffic to pass, surely that is decent driving. You make it out to be a massive crime, you are taking the law literally, a very bad way to be when you are on the road. I prefer people to use decent judgement. Are you one of those people that blows through red lights on their bike, then demands to be treated the same as a car? Get over yourself and live in the real world please.

I often travel the Route between West Cork and Cork city and at Halfway village there is a wide road. Slower drivers often move into part of the shoulder to allow others to pass, a very corteous move on their part and not in the least dangerous.

cyclopath2001

astraboy wrote:

O will you stop nit picking? If someone safety moves over to a wide hard shoulder for a few moments to allow faster traffic to pass, ...You make it out to be a massive crime, you are taking the law literally,

No I do not, I am merely clarifying that it's illegal. It may also be dangerous depending on the circumstances and that anyone who does it should be aware of the implications before they do so. They should also understand, when attempting to overtake, why another road-user might decide not to drive on the hard shoulder.

There has been a persistent and unrelenting attempt by posters here to make out that it's legal when it is not. I will accept that it may not always be dangerous, but that does not change the illegality.

Are you one of those people that blows through red lights on their bike,

Certainly not. Normally, I stop on amber. Just as it's illegal to drive on the hard shoulder, it's also illegal to run red lights, even if it's 'safe to do so'.

cpoh1

cyclopath I would suggest you go out there and get a real life, studying the rules of the road book just to prove a point on an internet board is not half as cool as you'd like to think.

GreeBo

cpoh1 wrote:

cyclopath I would suggest you go out there and get a real life, studying the rules of the road book just to prove a point on an internet board is not half as cool as you'd like to think.

indeed.
Not half as cool as your "oh yeah?" response.

astraboy wrote:

you are taking the law literally

as for thinking that this is a derogatory comment:rolleyes:

"ohh so when you said it was illegal to kill someone you really meant it?"
"common sense told me it was ok because I am a freaking nut job"

You cant let common sense rule the world because not everyone thinks the same thing is sensible. Thats why we have laws.

cyclopath2001

cpoh1 wrote:

cyclopath I would suggest you go out there and get a real life, studying the rules of the road book just to prove a point on an internet board is not half as cool as you'd like to think.

Playing by the rules is never cool, but it's what responsible citizens do. And, yes, I do value life, that's why I spend some time here trying to reason with the unreasonable.

peasant

Playing by ze rulez ...

Wouldn't you be at all (atallatall?) willing to admit that there is an unwritten rule that everybody should try and drive as fast as the limit / the conditions allow?

Pleeeeease?

pretty please?

astraboy

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Playing by the rules is never cool, but it's what responsible citizens do. And, yes, I do value life, that's why I spend some time here trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Your the one being unreasonable, as many people on the board will judge. Greebo is another one on the High horse band wagon, holier then tho, never breaks a law but flinches it when someone mentions something as complex as using common sense on the road instead of having to consult the ROTR before doing any manouver. Many things are illegal that are perfectly safe to do so. OOOOOOOOOO, its so dangerous to pull over to a part of the hard shoulder for a few moments, far better to hold up half the country behind me because I can't seem to drive at a reasonable pace.:rolleyes: People like you destroy what could be a decent motoring forum. It should be a place where people discuss overhead cams and such, you turn it into a mindnumbing political debate over the wording of the law. As someone said, get a life. Now I'm out the gap for the weekend, enjoy holding everyone up for the weekend on whatever road you drive on...........:rolleyes: