Immigration - have we overlooked the Island next door in the debate?

thelordofcheese · 23-07-2007 08:22PM

kelle wrote:

Only for Britain I wouldn't have the qualifications I have, and my good job. I could not get a place on that particular course in Ireland. My tuition expenses were all paid for by the British government, and I only had to fork out £9 per week for accommodation (mind you, that was 1989-1993).
It annoys me to hear anybody slag off the British...

I'm sure he was referencing the "what have the romans ever done for us" scene from Monty Pythons life of brian.

purple'n'gold · 23-07-2007 08:23PM

Let nobody forget, it’s only a mere 85 years since we were part of the United Kingdom. And not everyone in this part of Ireland was happy to see us leave it. And I don’t only mean the Anglo Irish.

Mr.Nice Guy · 23-07-2007 08:24PM

boreds wrote:

There isn't a language barrier to deal with. Plus when we were colonised, we got engulfed in their culture, so they aren't really seen as being 'different' from us.

If we'd been "engulfed" in their culture then we wouldn't have desired to separate from them.

I don't mind the British though. They're not likely to be the ones who'll beg on the streets or try to rob you. Scousers being the exception of course (joke).

purple'n'gold · 23-07-2007 08:33PM

boreds wrote:

There isn't a language barrier to deal with. Plus when we were colonised, we got engulfed in their culture, so they aren't really seen as being 'different' from us.

We were not colonised, we were conquered by the English, just like Scotland and Wales. And we became part of the United Kingdom in 1801. England being the dominant country in these islands that was the natural order of things.

Terry · 23-07-2007 08:36PM

thelordofcheese wrote:

I'm sure he was referencing the "what have the romans ever done for us" scene from Monty Pythons life of brian.

Yeah, I think a couple of people missed that one.

Zebra3 · 23-07-2007 08:37PM

purplengold wrote:

England being the dominant country in these islands that was the natural order of things.

If you see genocide, and cultural rape and pillage as natural... :rolleyes:

Would that be how you'd describe Germany's behaviour from 1933-1945?

purple'n'gold · 23-07-2007 08:42PM

Zebra3 wrote:

If you see genocide, and cultural rape and pillage as natural... :rolleyes:

Would that be how you'd describe Germany's behaviour from 1933-1945?

What I see doesn’t really matter, but if you have a group of islands, the dominant tribe will prevail. That’s the way it works, and that’s why the English conquered the Irish, Scots and Welsh.

Terry · 23-07-2007 08:43PM

Zebra3 wrote:

If you see genocide, and cultural rape and pillage as natural... :rolleyes:

Would that be how you'd describe Germany's behaviour from 1933-1945?

Shh!
You can't say anything wrong about the British.
The apologists will get you.

fly_agaric · 23-07-2007 09:04PM

Zebra3 wrote:

If you see genocide, and cultural rape and pillage as natural... :rolleyes:

These things can be called "natural" in the sense of not being abnormal/unusual rather than "right" or "good" or "moral" can't they?

mike65 · 23-07-2007 09:39PM

Jasus here we go applying 2007 values to events centuries earlier. Tis the road to philosophical ruin I tell ya.

Mike.

Steyr · 24-07-2007 12:48AM

It infuriates me when people slag the Brits we have a shared history, if it wasmt for them we would have alot of what we have now, they are our biggest trading partner in Europe, those who insist on digging up the past should hang their heads in shame, The British are very very welcome here indeed, god knows if a terrorist incident took place in Irish skys we couldnt do FA about it we would have to call on them, same goes for countless Irish people on the islands, when we didnt have Helicopter SAR the Brits would do it.

An Citeog · 24-07-2007 01:44AM

Zebra3 wrote:

If you see genocide, and cultural rape and pillage as natural... :rolleyes:

Would that be how you'd describe Germany's behaviour from 1933-1945?

Germany between 1933 & 1945, whatever do you mean?

Clicky

2 stroke · 24-07-2007 08:22AM

Steyr wrote:

we have a shared history

We have an imposed english history, we have a rich history and culture of our own that the english tried to wipe out. Our country was raped and plundered as were our people.
Yet we are a forgiving bunch, but don't try to change history.
What happened happened and if Irelands resources hadn't been plundered for centuries we would not be reliant on the english for anything now.

Terry · 24-07-2007 08:48AM

2 stroke wrote:

What happened happened and if Irelands resources hadn't been plundered for centuries we would not be AS reliant on the english for anything now.

Fixed that for ya.

We would not be entirely self reliant.

gurramok · 24-07-2007 08:55AM

As said, the figure is really 250,000 from the cso stats page.

Some are of Irish descent(including some of my relatives), how many of that 250,000 are of Irish descent we do not know unless we ask them!

Some have inter-married with Irish people(i know 2 personally) plus they integrate unlike other types that have been mentioned.

EDIT: Instead of looking at place of birth, take a look at nationality.
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/nationalityagegroup.htm
112,000 classified as British nationality, about half the total born in UK living here, rest have Irish nationality, now that tells ya something

Fratton Fred · 24-07-2007 09:12AM

2 stroke wrote:

We have an imposed english history, we have a rich history and culture of our own that the english tried to wipe out. Our country was raped and plundered as were our people.
Yet we are a forgiving bunch, but don't try to change history.
What happened happened and if Irelands resources hadn't been plundered for centuries we would not be reliant on the english for anything now.

damn those English for stealing Irelands oil and coal reserves and leaving nothing behind except roads, hospitals, schools and universities.:rolleyes:

Terry · 24-07-2007 09:31AM

Fratton Fred wrote:

damn those English for stealing Irelands oil and coal reserves and leaving nothing behind except roads, hospitals, schools and universities.:rolleyes:

This one always makes me laugh.

Is it too hard to believe that these things would have been built without the British presence here?
I'm sure that whatever town you live in has some ruin dating back several hundreds of years, before any british invasion.

But of course, the Irish in those days were too thick to build anyhing for themselves. God only knows how it came to be that we even reproduced.

2 stroke · 24-07-2007 09:37AM

We would not be entirely self reliant.

Terry I don't agree. england would not be so powerful today if they hadn't plundered the world. Ireland was not only the Island of saints and scholars we also had a fine tradition of metalwork and jewelry making. Had we been left alone we could have had our own industrial revolution. Ok we might have needed to plunder some iron and coal but who knows.

damn those English for stealing Irelands oil and coal reserves and leaving nothing behind except roads, hospitals, schools and universities

Fred I thinkyou need to read some irish history.We had roads before the english and irish labour built many of the roads and railways in england
The english didn't build schools and universities for the irish they built them for their own. What you call hospitals were mostly workhouses which the irish were driven into after their land was taken. The number of new people that could be taken in by a workhouse each day was limited by the number of people that had died inside the night before.

Terry · 24-07-2007 10:01AM

2 stroke wrote:

Terry I don't agree.

Fair enough, but I'm always right. Just as long as we have that straight.

england would not be so powerful today if they hadn't plundered the world.

True, but we wouldn't have had the potato for many more years.

Ireland was not only the Island of saints and scholars we also had a fine tradition of metalwork and jewelry making.

Jewellery making does not a good economy make.
We were sorted agriculturally and trade would have brought new ideas, but copies of the Tara brooch just wouldn't have sustained us.

Had we been left alone we could have had our own industrial revolution. Ok we might have needed to plunder some iron and coal but who knows.

Now you see here is where you really go wrong (in my eyes).
We may have had an industrial revolution, had we traded with britain.
As for the plundering of iron and coal, wouldn't that have made us as bad as the peple we are decrying?

Fratton Fred · 24-07-2007 10:13AM

Terry wrote:

This one always makes me laugh.

Is it too hard to believe that these things would have been built without the British presence here?
I'm sure that whatever town you live in has some ruin dating back several hundreds of years, before any british invasion.

Of course not, these things would have been built and Ireland would have prospered, more or less than it did is anyones guess. My point was more around the fact that people only talk about the "Raping" and "Plundering".

It's a two way thing, many Irish people did (and still do) very nicely out of the English yet that is conveniently forgotten.

Fratton Fred · 24-07-2007 02:40PM

2 stroke wrote:

Fred I thinkyou need to read some irish history.We had roads before the english and irish labour built many of the roads and railways in england
The english didn't build schools and universities for the irish they built them for their own. What you call hospitals were mostly workhouses which the irish were driven into after their land was taken. The number of new people that could be taken in by a workhouse each day was limited by the number of people that had died inside the night before.

I've read a load of Irish history thanks and it's not that different to English History really. Wealthy ruling classes making a fortune off the back of the working classes. In Ireland it was an English/Irish issue in England it was called a class struggle.

Terry · 24-07-2007 02:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

Of course not, these things would have been built and Ireland would have prospered, more or less than it did is anyones guess. My point was more around the fact that people only talk about the "Raping" and "Plundering".

It's a two way thing, many Irish people did (and still do) very nicely out of the English yet that is conveniently forgotten.

I'm not disputing that for one second.
It's just that some people seem to focus more on that part and not on the fact that we were a self sufficient nation* before the British invaded.

*Yes, I know there were 5 provinces, but I'm fairly certain that some sort of agreement would have eventually been reached. I'm sure many wars would have been fought, but no more than were fought against any invaders.

Zebra3 · 24-07-2007 04:07PM

mike65 wrote:

Jasus here we go applying 2007 values to events centuries earlier. Tis the road to philosophical ruin I tell ya.

Or 2007 values to events in the 1930s and 1940s.

Of course back then it was ok to occupy countries in Aisa and Africa, but not Europe.

mike65 · 24-07-2007 04:37PM

Well if you tried in Europe you'd get your ass kicked - ask Hitler.

Mike.

mountainyman · 24-07-2007 04:40PM

Steyr wrote:

ItThe British are very very welcome here indeed, god knows if a terrorist incident took place in Irish skys ....

Not so far as I am concerned and if a terrorist incident took place in Irish skies MI 5 would probably be behind it.

MI5 still deals with Irish issues.

MM

Fratton Fred · 24-07-2007 04:44PM

oh oh, I know where this is going to end up:eek:

no one mention 800 years doh!!:o

mike65 · 24-07-2007 04:48PM

Its going to end up where all these threads end up. With the Irish indulging themselves.

Mike.

thelordofcheese · 24-07-2007 04:53PM

It's a thread in AH with "The Brits" in the the opening post.

It's fate was sealed before darkman2 pressed the submit button

Steyr · 24-07-2007 05:04PM

You never hear the English complain about the Irish who invaded England centuries ago they seem to have forgotten about that then again this was before the Vikings, im trying to dig up where i heard this.

Fratton Fred · 24-07-2007 05:10PM

Steyr wrote:

You never hear the English complain about the Irish who invaded England centuries ago they seem to have forgotten about that then again this was before the Vikings, im trying to dig up where i heard this.

Inishmore is (I think) the old name for the Isle of Anglesey, given to it by the Irish who took control of it.

I also doubt very much that St Patrick came here and offered to become a slave of his own free will.

But it's ok, we forgive you. What we can't forgive you for though are the following attrocities:

The Nolans
The Furys
Boyzone
Westlife
Bewitched:D
Spoiral!
Dana

And lastly, Terry Wogan is ours. We won him fair and square.

Immigration - have we overlooked the Island next door in the debate?

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