Would compulsory military service sort out Ireland's social problems?

PeakOutput · 22-06-2007 02:10AM

hmmmmm interesting.......

ok i dont think there should be an option of sending people forced to serve overseas so if it works like that id be against it............

edited to remove wrong quote

arybvtcw0eolkf · 22-06-2007 02:18AM

PeakOutput wrote:

hmmmmm interesting.......

ok i dont think there should be an option of sending people forced to serve overseas so if it works like that id be against it............

edited to remove wrong quote

So would you trust a concript army to escort cash, prisoner's and explosives around the country?. Or to cover the host of other regimental duties carried out on a daily basis, ie the Mint out in Sandyford, Aras, Government buildings and the EOD team's on call daily?.

People in this country are of the impression that our Defence Forces sit around all day playing cards and sueing for loss of hearing, but in reality we're a very busy organisation.

Zillah · 22-06-2007 02:50AM

irishgeo wrote:

Lets say after the leaving cert and before college and only if you were 18 or over.All people medically unfit would be exempt.

Wow. You do realise that a large amount of people don't even do the leaving cert, and a much larger proportion don't go to college? We want people to go to college. Lets not delay them with mandatory military service.

On one hand I agree with your position. Mandatory military service would do many people a world of good. However, on a fundamental level I utterly protest the notion that my government can dictate what I do with a year or more of my life after basic education. Its a loss of liberty that I can not tolerate.

However, I do believe that freedom is not free. Democracy is not a very natural state of affairs and it takes a lot of diligent effort by a lot of people to maintain it. Happy citizens of western democracies get to live their happy lives because of the military service of other people. In that regard I feel mandatory military service is justifiable. However, given that Ireland is sitting in a very comfortable position where the chances of us being threatened militarily are laughable, I can't codone it. We are shielded by two of the most influential super powers in the world.

bolliwoodi · 22-06-2007 04:12AM

irishgeo wrote:

While sitting here, this thought flew into my head.

What if Ireland was to bring in a law stating that all young people had to do a year of military service before going to college. Lets say after the leaving cert and before college and only if you were 18 or over.All people medically unfit would be exempt. This would be decided by military doctors.

I think this would solve a number of problems

1. Obesity - It would get the the young people off their arses and away from the TV and xboxes and into a fitness regime. Even for a year it would do them the world of good.

2. Discipline - It would teach them some manners and to respect others, which would be useful to some of today's teenagers.

3. Binge Drinking - i think it would cut a lot this out as for the year i would recommend that only 1 weekend a month would be allowed off base.

4. It would give them some skills and perhaps an idea of what they want to do in college. You could have them train in various skills such as vehicle repair, cooking etc..

5. First Aid - Imagine having most of the young people being able to do first aid. It could save so many lives.

6. Driving Skills - They would learn how to drive carefully and with responsibility and perhaps they would not be allowed do their test with having done the military service.

7. Self Defence - they would pick up some self defence training as well as training on firearms, which would i think benefit them later in life.

I am sure their is many more bonuses which you may suggest.

I would put a no buy out clause so rich kids cant skip it.If Prince Harry and William can do it i don't see why our rich kids cant do it.

Its not likely anyone is going to get seriously injured as we are a neutral county and only do peace missions which young people would be exempt.

Just thought i throw this out and see what reaction it gets.

I AGREE 100% TODAYS YOUTH HAVE NO RESPECT

Mahatma coat · 22-06-2007 05:06AM

Mairt wrote:

So would you trust a concript army to escort cash, prisoner's and explosives around the country?. Or to cover the host of other regimental duties carried out on a daily basis, ie the Mint out in Sandyford, Aras, Government buildings and the EOD team's on call daily?.

Well yes I would expect the 'Conscripts' to do these things, obviously I wouldnt let a whole platoon of conscripts loose with guns all by themselves, but at the moment these duties are carried out by the PDF, so if we used the National Servicemen as well we could free up more actual soldiers to do the more difficult and important stuff, say a security escort for a bank delivery takes 15 men, we could send 5 Professional soldiers and 10 Servicemen who had passed a selection process.

the whole point of the exercise is to instill a sense of civic responsibility in the population, therefore if after you've trained and drilled and prepared them you're not willing to use them someone has failed somewhere.

Dunno what EOD is but I'd guess its probably one of the jobs you'd want to free up more real soldiers for.

People in this country are of the impression that our Defence Forces sit around all day playing cards and sueing for loss of hearing, but in reality we're a very busy organisation.

Oh I know I've seen it firsthand, that said tho theres a lot of 'hurryupandwait' too

watsgone · 22-06-2007 08:00AM

irishgeo wrote:

While sitting here, this thought flew into my head.

What if Ireland was to bring in a law stating that all young people had to do a year of military service before going to college. Lets say after the leaving cert and before college and only if you were 18 or over.All people medically unfit would be exempt. This would be decided by military doctors.

I think this would solve a number of problems

1. Obesity - It would get the the young people off their arses and away from the TV and xboxes and into a fitness regime. Even for a year it would do them the world of good.

2. Discipline - It would teach them some manners and to respect others, which would be useful to some of today's teenagers.

3. Binge Drinking - i think it would cut a lot this out as for the year i would recommend that only 1 weekend a month would be allowed off base.

4. It would give them some skills and perhaps an idea of what they want to do in college. You could have them train in various skills such as vehicle repair, cooking etc..

5. First Aid - Imagine having most of the young people being able to do first aid. It could save so many lives.

6. Driving Skills - They would learn how to drive carefully and with responsibility and perhaps they would not be allowed do their test with having done the military service.

7. Self Defence - they would pick up some self defence training as well as training on firearms, which would i think benefit them later in life.

If you make any one do anything I think they apprecaite it less.
100% of youth do not have respect- is wrong, false and feads the sterotypes.

RDA is often known for its drinking parties with alcohol being cheaper to purchase on camp.
While self defence is a good idea , putting guns into some peoples hands even for training is a bad idea.

First Aid can be learn in many other organisation, this should be taught to a proper standard in schools. As teachers often have no idea what to do, anyway there is not may medical units through ireland in the RDA or army.

Archeron · 22-06-2007 08:35AM

PeakOutput wrote:

my point is that at 18 alot of people are not mature enough to handle their new found freedom and that is where the problem comes from.........

The background I came from meant the vast majority of people who finished their leaving cert did not go on to college, but went straight into employment. Of the app 50 people who done their leaving at the same time as me, over 40 of them had full time jobs within 5/6 months of leaving school. These people, while some were dossers in school, became mature responsible members of society as soon as the need arose. Most of these people have now progressed well within their chosen professions or careers and now have families, mortgages and normal everyday adult lives.
I dont underdstand what this "new found freedom" you refer to is, as for most people (who follow the non college path) this progression means moving from being a kid in school with the life of Reilly, to being an adult with a job, sometimes a family, and responsibility. In the working class area I come from, this has always been the way it is, so I fail to see why people should be forced to join an armed force.
In particular, I take issue with the comment from someone that people should join the military if they dont go to college, because I can tell you for a fact, that just because someone doesnt go to college after the leaving, does NOT mean that they instantly become a scumbag who's out thieving and stealing all the time or a dosser, or a scrounger of any sort. In fact, I could go on to say that the people who start working at 17 or 18 years old are actually the people who need to mature quicker in order to keep the job they've secured and to support themselves in the world. Despite what sometimes appears to be popular belief, there are not many people who actually want to be on the dole.

SimpleSam06 · 22-06-2007 08:43AM

irishgeo wrote:

What if Ireland was to bring in a law stating that all young people had to do a year of military service before going to college.

What, a draft? Ireland doesn't even need an army. The entire institution should be abolished. Its not like its worth a toss to us in this day and age.

pclancy · 22-06-2007 08:56AM

Yeah. Let other countries waste billions on their defence forces and train up their kids to kill others, be killed themselves and get involved in someone elses war. I dont want any part of it and id much rather see our money go towards something usefull. Its annoying enough to see the massive use of money to equip our fabulous army with shiny new helicopters and APCs without deciding EVERYONE has to join for at least a year and be brainwashed and shot at.

Theres much better ways to help youths that have had a bad start in life, shat on by society and labelled as a danger to society then throw them into an army.

digitally-yours · 22-06-2007 09:32AM

Here is an Idea !

what can be done with all the criminals

Link

arybvtcw0eolkf · 22-06-2007 10:23AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

What, a draft? Ireland doesn't even need an army. The entire institution should be abolished. Its not like its worth a toss to us in this day and age.

Yea, damn right :rolleyes:

Crucifix · 22-06-2007 10:33AM

irishgeo wrote:

6. Driving Skills - They would learn how to drive carefully and with responsibility and perhaps they would not be allowed do their test with having done the military service.

Would you give back your licence until you'd completed your service?

When I was twenty (6 months ago), I wasn't on the streets ****ing about, I was (and still am) getting an education. I know what I want to do with my life, and I've set about doing it. I don't think I should have to give up a year of my life because a bunch of my peers don't have any respect or discipline.

Caliden · 22-06-2007 10:33AM

If this was in operation, I just wouldn't bother going to college.

Slow Motion · 22-06-2007 10:40AM

Had this very conversation with a mate over a pint in the pub a while ago, we both agreed that now that we were too old for it, it was a good idea ! I think I'm turning into me da

0ubliette · 22-06-2007 11:02AM

i actually think it might do some good for little knacker bastards to get some discipline forced into them. Might teach them the basic concept of respect for other people.

SimpleSam06 · 22-06-2007 11:06AM

Mairt wrote:

Yea, damn right :rolleyes:

Well for a start, who's going to invade us? The UK on one side, the US on the other (and half the entire east coast is Irish by this stage). And even if someone did, what could our current defence forces do against even a half hearted effort by an invader? If recent events have taught us anything, its that asymmetrical warfare is the only chance a weaker nation has against a stronger nation, so our defence policy should reflect that.

Of course, in the unpleasant scenario of a genocidal invader, really a few nukes are the only insurance policy you need. And they would certainly be cheaper than our current military force.

The security guard work being carried out by the army should be replaced with a small, dedicated group of heavy weapons and tactics trained gardaí, and the navy and air force should be folded into the same group, and beefed up considerably. We are, after all, an island.

Mawg · 22-06-2007 11:21AM

Interesting idea, I think it's worth a try.

PeakOutput · 22-06-2007 11:27AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Well for a start, who's going to invade us? The UK on one side, the US on the other (and half the entire east coast is Irish by this stage). And even if someone did, what could our current defence forces do against even a half hearted effort by an invader? If recent events have taught us anything, its that asymmetrical warfare is the only chance a weaker nation has against a stronger nation, so our defence policy should reflect that.

Of course, in the unpleasant scenario of a genocidal invader, really a few nukes are the only insurance policy you need. And they would certainly be cheaper than our current military force.

The security guard work being carried out by the army should be replaced with a small, dedicated group of heavy weapons and tactics trained gardaí, and the navy and air force should be folded into the same group, and beefed up considerably. We are, after all, an island.

besides everything else we need an army to fulfill our obligations to the international agreements we have signed up to.......like peacekeeping for example.............if the army do nothing else besides peacekeeping it is a worthwhile investment imo

muletide · 22-06-2007 11:27AM

Mairt wrote:

We don't need 'the draft'. We don't have an external or internal security threat. Internally gangland is a greater threat than anything else at the moment, soldiers can't deal with gangland.

Irish soldiers can, and are 'detailed' for oversea's service, both peacekeeping (old UNIFIL mandate) and peace enforcement (All missions since 2001).

'Peakout'Put', we already have a large officer cadre in the Defence Forces. We don't need more. In fact our officer number's are at 'emergency' strenght since a large officer recruitment drive between 1971-73.

Tell me you are joking about our strength at the moment beng comparable to the Emergency. Do you have a full compliment in Galway? (I already know the answer)

PeakOutput · 22-06-2007 11:30AM

muletide wrote:

Tell me you are joking about our strength at the moment beng comparable to the Emergency. Do you have a full compliment in Galway? (I already know the answer)

i think he meant the amount of officers only not the general number of the defence forces

red_ice · 22-06-2007 11:39AM

i read the first 3 replies and decided to get to the meat and veg of my argument.

I think its an excellent idea. People need direction in life, and for a good 50% of youths (lets face it) in Ireland it will give them something productive to do. You cant deny it, stuff like what the op has said works and anyone who doesn't agree is talking sh1te. Its blatant that the scumbags who love their cars, but cant be arsed to work for one, would get into the mechanical side of things in the army. Kids who play computer games or play paint ball would LOVE The firearms lark - i mean cmon, styer augs are a serious piece of kit.

Other than that, they would get dicipline and noone can deny that our country is in desperate need of it with all the scum thats going around the streets here.

Im all for it, im 23, and if they brought it in for the 18 year olds i would take a year out after college and take part if i could - provided it means i don't have to sign up for anything afterwards and its just for some sort of training and a feel for different areas of trade/work - without a doubt i would. I would have said 'no chance' when i was 18, but looking back i can see myself benefiting from it.

SimpleSam06 · 22-06-2007 11:44AM

PeakOutput wrote:

besides everything else we need an army to fulfill our obligations to the international agreements we have signed up to.......like peacekeeping for example.............if the army do nothing else besides peacekeeping it is a worthwhile investment imo

International agreements can and have changed many times in the past, and there wouldn't be a great deal of repercussions if we were to pull out of "peacekeeping", which is largely toothless in any case. If you want to build a global police force, build a global police force, not part time volunteers who can be withdrawn any time their parent government feels like it.

PeakOutput · 22-06-2007 12:00PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

International agreements can and have changed many times in the past, and there wouldn't be a great deal of repercussions if we were to pull out of "peacekeeping", which is largely toothless in any case.

well im sure mairt will give you the specific reasons why but im sure the people of the lebanon and congo would disagree with you

i know for a fact the people of the lebanon would as i worked with a few of them and they all knew how beneficial peacekeeping was particularly the irish peacekeepers

muletide · 22-06-2007 12:04PM

PeakOutput wrote:

i think he meant the amount of officers only not the general number of the defence forces

I understood his post perfectly. I too am talking about the amount of officers

SimpleSam06 · 22-06-2007 12:04PM

PeakOutput wrote:

i know for a fact the people of the lebanon would as i worked with a few of them and they all knew how beneficial peacekeeping was particularly the irish peacekeepers

I'm not saying peacekeeping is completely useless, just that its a bit of a half assed effort. I know there are lots of people in Rwanda who would agree with me.

muletide · 22-06-2007 12:07PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I'm not saying peacekeeping is completely useless, just that its a bit of a half assed effort. I know there are lots of people in Rwanda who would agree with me.

Lets try and stick to Irish involvement and I know alot of people in Liberia who would disagree with you. Funny how no one ever speaks of the successful missions

Jumpy · 22-06-2007 12:17PM

Im ex army reserve. It sorted me out.
Although primarily the antisocial situation in Ireland is under 18's. So I cant see it helping too much.

SimpleSam06 · 22-06-2007 12:38PM

muletide wrote:

Lets try and stick to Irish involvement and I know alot of people in Liberia who would disagree with you. Funny how no one ever speaks of the successful missions

There was no mission in Rwanda, although there should have been. My point in any case is we don't need an army, its an outdated burden on the country and should be replaced with a more modern approach. In fact the Rwandan situation underlines the need for a detached global police force more than anything else, and fairly proves my point.

Despite specific warnings and requests from UNAMIR's commanding officers in Rwanda, before and during the genocide, the UN Security Council refused to send additional support, declined UNAMIR's request for authorization to intervene, and even scaled back UNAMIR's forces and authority. The only foreign entity to directly intervene was the French government, which sent troops not to stop the genocide, but rather to protect the genocidal Rwandan armed forces from the invading rebels that ultimately ended the bloodshed.

22-06-2007 12:44PM

Alot of teenagers might move to Canada!

theTinker · 22-06-2007 12:47PM

I do believe that a large part of the anti social problems we have in Ireland/Dublin are from youths below 18 years of age, however I think they would be less likely to start trouble and also far less likely to get away with it - if most of the young men/women around them have been disicplined/trained in the army. They would get thier asses kicked fairly fast. People would be alot more likely to stand up to a bunch of sh*tf*cks.

I also think it would be alot more beneficial to general society. I think a year of hard work would stop alot of lazy fecks who don't do anything.
It should also be implemented that long term users of the dole have to sign up to it to recieve training.
They could also be put to work tackling some problems in the city.

Would compulsory military service sort out Ireland's social problems?

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