wexford tragedy

sunzz · 24-04-2007 10:59AM #1

Just in work there and listening to the Jerry Ryan show, seems the father who killed his wife and children visited a funeral home during the week, reckon this could have been adverted or is hindsight a wonderful thing?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0424/enniscorthy.html

Dun laoire · 24-04-2007 11:04AM

Really really tragic and makes me sad. It's the kids being murdered that really gets to me. It sounds so dodgy that he organised that and yes something shouldve been done. However when you hear people saying that they were a perfectly normal family how can you see something like this happening. Shocking

sunzz · 24-04-2007 11:40AM

AApparently the fella who was on the radio this morning said there is in no uncertain terms "**** all" clinics to help people who are depressed and people in the wexford area suffering from suicidal tendencies would have no where to go in order to seek help, hope the general elections might spur a revolt and hopefully more clinics will pop up, btw I would never be able to spot a depressed person. Two of my mates are on anti depressants and if you didn't know they had it you would think they were the most entertaining and up lifting people you could be around.

Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

b3t4 · 24-04-2007 11:59AM

sunzz wrote:

Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

I don't see how they didn't spot this.

Two priests, the gardai and an HSE official was called into this situation. This does not happen in a stable, happy family. Surely someone would of had the cop on to say that there was something definitely up.

I find it shocking that a HSE official basically told the gardai to basically suss out for themselves if they needed to take the kids away or not. Surely a health official would be more capable of determining the situation rather than leaving it up to the gardai.

It's an awful tragedy. I hope that we can learn from this and not have a repeat incident of a similar nature.
A

giddyup · 24-04-2007 12:08PM

I'm pretty appalled at the whole thing. The incident itself is a huge tragedy but reading about it in the Indo I was getting angry.

The guy went to a funeral home to arrange funerals for the whole family. If this isn't a cry for help what is? The funeral director rang a detective. What does the detective do? Rings a priest to go and have a chat. Only in Ireland. Priest spends 2 hours with family on Friday evening. Priest 1 rings priest 2 on Saturday and asks him to check in but he can't gain access. Meanwhile the Gardai ring the HSE but they only operate Monday to Friday so if you are in dire trouble at the weekend forget about it.

Nobody (repeat) nobody calls again until Monday when the priest (repeat) priest calls, sees the milk piling up and eventually gets the gardai to gain access.

Fair play to the priest(s). Seemed to be the only ones trying to be pro-active. I'm disgusted however at the inaction of the other jobsworths. What will be done? Probably nothing. Pretty depressing vignette of modern Ireland.

dame · 24-04-2007 12:09PM

I didn't hear the undertaker on the radio but I would hope that when someone tries to arrange a funeral for their family, while they're still alive, that the guards would immediately alert the wife/mother and take the children into care immediately. This would probably not be a popular course of action for the HSE who would rather avoid any controversy, but I would far rather they err on the side of caution and do this rather than go softly softly. When the parents have been seen by professionals and have proved their mental state is back to normal and the are capable of looking after their children, then they can be returned.

It is an absolute tragedy that this could happen. The facilities need to be put in place to help people who feel isolated and unable to cope. How can you get help if there is none available?

Vas_Guy · 24-04-2007 12:15PM

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

hamsterboy · 24-04-2007 12:16PM

Being originally from the area where this tragedy happened, I know what a blow it will be to the small community of Monageer.
I knew the man and for all I could make out he was a friendly, happy father of two lovely kids.
I think there are of course questions to be asked of the Gardai and particulary the HSE, but in the end that won't bring back the lives lost.

gyppo · 24-04-2007 12:29PM

A family relative works for the HSE, and is of the opinion that apathy predominately rules within this organisation. Looks like he's right.

sonners · 24-04-2007 12:30PM

was'nt there a case like this a few years ago also in Wexford where a young mother seeeked help from the HSE for herself and her two kids only to be told the same thing....come back monday. She then went and drove her car into the sea killing herself and both children. There was public outrage over this incident (quite rightly) and I'm so saddened to see that the same thing has been allowed to happen again.

seamus · 24-04-2007 12:36PM

Blame seems to be lying at the HSE's door alright.

Although something has been reported to the Gardai, they can't take any action without a reasonable excuse. The main reasonable excuse would have been that a child was in danger, but in order to acertain that a Garda would need a medical/social professional's consultation. And such a person isn't available out of hours because the HSE doesn't provide out of hours social care.

Suicide seems to be quite an issue in small rural communities, particularly in the case of twentysomethings. Has there been any kind of report on the social aspects of this, or otherwise any provision made for services for these people?

Sonners, that's pretty much it. The mother arrived at the local hospital on a Friday evening, looking for a social worker, only to be told that there were no social workers on duty until the following Monday morning.

sonners · 24-04-2007 12:40PM

From what I can gather, the only help available to people outside of mon-fri 9-5 is the CareDoc system. Which in my opinion is'nt enough. For one, it costs money-which not everyone has. And I'm also unsure as to their authority to declare the parents unfit, take the children away, whatever needs to be done.

thebaz · 24-04-2007 12:40PM

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

gazzer · 24-04-2007 12:42PM

It makes me so angry that a tragedy like this can happen. The country is meant to be awash with money yet there are not out of hours care for people with mental illness or in a distressed state..

After that young mother killed herself and her two kids in Wexford 2 years ago (after pleading for help but none fortcoming because it was a weekend) we were told that things would change and that a tragedy like that would never happen again.. and here we are and nothing has been inplemented in all that time to stop the same thing happening again.

Apparantly you can have a breakdown or be in distress from Monday - Friday (9 -5) in this country and be helped but god forbid you want help out of those hours...

Mrs_Doyle · 24-04-2007 12:47PM

The more I read/hear about this story, the more upsetting it gets.

There are so many things that could have, and should have been done differently, but they weren't, and now a young family has been wiped out as a result.

In such a small town I am truly surprised that no one, not the HSE, the Gardai, the Priest, the Undertaker, thought to bring their concerns to any of the extended Dunne family.

Perhaps had their parents, or siblings, been aware of such concerns they could have intervened themselves.

Raiser · 24-04-2007 12:47PM

Vas_Guy wrote:

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

The Irish Independent shed some of its size there not so long ago.....every time the sorry little lump of wasted paper hits the shelves it seems be that bit closer to its goal of clawing its way to the very bottom.

.......At least the rest of the Tabloids admit that they are tasteless rubbish written by knackers with an 8 year olds grasp of the English language.

- Every time they pay Demelza De Burca's salary they are surely commiting themselves to only appealing to the lowest common denominator

p.s I'm not buying this toilet paper - its given out free at work every day :rolleyes:

sonners · 24-04-2007 12:47PM

thebaz wrote:

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

I do agree with you baz, and fair play to the priests in question. I know we might mock but it does appear that they were genuinely concerned about the family in question and actively tried to do whatever they could in their power. Its a terrible shame that this family felt they had no-one to turn to. No friends, family, somebody.

To me, organising funerals before a death is a cry for help, and I dont know why there were'nt serious alarm bells ringing in the authorities heads. I dont want to blame the authorities (I know its very easy to do) but could the priest have taken those children from their parents? No. Could the undertaker have done more than he did? No. But the authorities could have, they are the ones with the power to act and they should have done so.

sunzz · 24-04-2007 12:50PM

sunzz
Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

I wasn't on about the events that unfolded after he went to the funeral home more so about how you can recognise someone's mental state of mind before it gets to out of hand.

Ghost Train · 24-04-2007 12:59PM

Vas_Guy wrote:

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

over the last few years the independent has run a number of stories with out showing much tact for families involved, definitely a paper i avoid buying

as for what happened, i think warning signs were there and if the guardi were called they should have checked out the situation, that being said i dont think anyone could be expected to link visiting a funeral home with murdering the family, strange as it was its hard to imagine before the event that the family were in such great danger

nesf · 24-04-2007 12:59PM

thebaz wrote:

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

I'd disagree with you to an extent. Depression isn't just a social malady it is an issue faced in even the most caring societies.

Out of interest, why do people think he was depressed?

seamus · 24-04-2007 01:12PM

I may be way off here, but did I hear someone on the radio this morning say that the Adrian Dunne's brother had only committed suicide himself recently?

That fact, linked with the need in the first place for the family to have social welfare consultations, should be ringing all sorts of alarm bells.

petes · 24-04-2007 01:14PM

seamus wrote:

I may be way off here, but did I hear someone on the radio this morning say that the Adrian Dunne's brother had only committed suicide himself recently?

That fact, linked with the need in the first place for the family to have social welfare consultations, should be ringing all sorts of alarm bells.

Not sure if it was suicide but his brother died about a month ago.

24-04-2007 01:16PM

Whatever happened, it was a major screw-up for social services. Their service really needs to be reviewed after something that could have been solved.

Ronan|Raven · 24-04-2007 01:19PM

Surely in this day and age in our country of apparent affluence we can afford to pay members of the HSE and other bodies to be available on the weekend?

arseagon · 24-04-2007 01:24PM

petes wrote:

Not sure if it was suicide but his brother died about a month ago.

Yes it was suicide. I've a feeling this is going to turn into a farce of one official body blaming the other for not doing their job and vice versa.

Terrible tragedy, I still can't believe it.

thebaz · 24-04-2007 01:27PM

nesf wrote:

I'd disagree with you to an extent. Depression isn't just a social malady it is an issue faced in even the most caring societies.

Out of interest, why do people think he was depressed?

Well i know from my own personal experince and from being around many parts of Dublin , that many people are not getting the help they need -- and its down to money -- 20 years ago Ireland was a much more caring society and suicide and depression were much less common -- wealthy Westerm cultures seam to allow depression to thrive , with a cost cutting culture, that encourages selfishness and mass materialism -- there are many benefits to the society we live in, but many do get left behind , and feal worthless.

InFront · 24-04-2007 01:49PM

What a sad story. I heard on the News At One on Radio1 that there is going to be an independent investigation of how the authorities reacted. The most disturbing thing from that report is that when the Gardai were alerted by the undertaker, a police-car drove up and down past the house a few times on the Saturday, but nobody called in.

Having said that, it seems that blame for these deaths does not lie squarely on anyone's shoulders outside the house, i.e. it was suicide and murder, and the guilty party (or parties) are gone.
Just because the police and the HSE are next in position as the focus of blame doesn't necessarily mean they deserve 'blame' or the public focus of anger.
But by all accounts, those in charge of suicide prevention and mental health services seem to need to take a long hard look at the service they are providing.

nesf · 24-04-2007 01:52PM

thebaz wrote:

Well i know from my own personal experince and from being around many parts of Dublin , that many people are not getting the help they need -- and its down to money -- 20 years ago Ireland was a much more caring society and suicide and depression were much less common -- wealthy Westerm cultures seam to allow depression to thrive , with a cost cutting culture, that encourages selfishness and mass materialism -- there are many benefits to the society we live in, but many do get left behind , and feal worthless.

I'd disagree again. I'm originally from a rural area and depression and suicide has been a problem for a very long time. The only difference is that deaths are now being reported as suicides where before they were "accidents" and so on. There might be a rise in cases, I don't know for sure, but depression was common 20/30/40 years ago. Speaking from personal experience etc.

thebaz · 24-04-2007 02:08PM

nesf wrote:

I'd disagree again. I'm originally from a rural area and depression and suicide has been a problem for a very long time. The only difference is that deaths are now being reported as suicides where before they were "accidents" and so on. There might be a rise in cases, I don't know for sure, but depression was common 20/30/40 years ago. Speaking from personal experience etc.

I've heard that something like 30% of the supposed civilsed Western World are on anti-depressants -- if were so wealthy why are so many of us unhappy with what we have ?

nesf · 24-04-2007 02:18PM

thebaz wrote:

I've heard that something like 30% of the supposed civilsed Western World are on anti-depressants -- if were so wealthy why are so many of us unhappy with what we have ?

30%? Could you link to stats backing that up? (it just sounds very high to me, yes anti-depressants are over-prescribed but to that level?).

Also, this is taking this thread off topic. If you want we can discuss this in a separate thread, this is an issue that interests me.

24-04-2007 02:24PM

Just following up on the facilities end of it.
I know of a weekend suicide locally last year where the family were desperately trying to get psychiatric help for a 21 yr old and were told to wait untill monday.
He killed himself on saturday night.

Can you imagine if that was applied to A&E...

wexford tragedy

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