wexford tragedy

sunzz

Just in work there and listening to the Jerry Ryan show, seems the father who killed his wife and children visited a funeral home during the week, reckon this could have been adverted or is hindsight a wonderful thing?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0424/enniscorthy.html

Dun laoire

Really really tragic and makes me sad. It's the kids being murdered that really gets to me. It sounds so dodgy that he organised that and yes something shouldve been done. However when you hear people saying that they were a perfectly normal family how can you see something like this happening. Shocking

sunzz

AApparently the fella who was on the radio this morning said there is in no uncertain terms "**** all" clinics to help people who are depressed and people in the wexford area suffering from suicidal tendencies would have no where to go in order to seek help, hope the general elections might spur a revolt and hopefully more clinics will pop up, btw I would never be able to spot a depressed person. Two of my mates are on anti depressants and if you didn't know they had it you would think they were the most entertaining and up lifting people you could be around.

Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

b3t4

sunzz wrote:

Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

I don't see how they didn't spot this.

Two priests, the gardai and an HSE official was called into this situation. This does not happen in a stable, happy family. Surely someone would of had the cop on to say that there was something definitely up.

I find it shocking that a HSE official basically told the gardai to basically suss out for themselves if they needed to take the kids away or not. Surely a health official would be more capable of determining the situation rather than leaving it up to the gardai.

It's an awful tragedy. I hope that we can learn from this and not have a repeat incident of a similar nature.
A

giddyup

I'm pretty appalled at the whole thing. The incident itself is a huge tragedy but reading about it in the Indo I was getting angry.

The guy went to a funeral home to arrange funerals for the whole family. If this isn't a cry for help what is? The funeral director rang a detective. What does the detective do? Rings a priest to go and have a chat. Only in Ireland. Priest spends 2 hours with family on Friday evening. Priest 1 rings priest 2 on Saturday and asks him to check in but he can't gain access. Meanwhile the Gardai ring the HSE but they only operate Monday to Friday so if you are in dire trouble at the weekend forget about it.

Nobody (repeat) nobody calls again until Monday when the priest (repeat) priest calls, sees the milk piling up and eventually gets the gardai to gain access.

Fair play to the priest(s). Seemed to be the only ones trying to be pro-active. I'm disgusted however at the inaction of the other jobsworths. What will be done? Probably nothing. Pretty depressing vignette of modern Ireland.

dame

I didn't hear the undertaker on the radio but I would hope that when someone tries to arrange a funeral for their family, while they're still alive, that the guards would immediately alert the wife/mother and take the children into care immediately. This would probably not be a popular course of action for the HSE who would rather avoid any controversy, but I would far rather they err on the side of caution and do this rather than go softly softly. When the parents have been seen by professionals and have proved their mental state is back to normal and the are capable of looking after their children, then they can be returned.

It is an absolute tragedy that this could happen. The facilities need to be put in place to help people who feel isolated and unable to cope. How can you get help if there is none available?

Vas_Guy

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

hamsterboy

Being originally from the area where this tragedy happened, I know what a blow it will be to the small community of Monageer.
I knew the man and for all I could make out he was a friendly, happy father of two lovely kids.
I think there are of course questions to be asked of the Gardai and particulary the HSE, but in the end that won't bring back the lives lost.

gyppo

A family relative works for the HSE, and is of the opinion that apathy predominately rules within this organisation. Looks like he's right.

sonners

was'nt there a case like this a few years ago also in Wexford where a young mother seeeked help from the HSE for herself and her two kids only to be told the same thing....come back monday. She then went and drove her car into the sea killing herself and both children. There was public outrage over this incident (quite rightly) and I'm so saddened to see that the same thing has been allowed to happen again.

seamus

Blame seems to be lying at the HSE's door alright.

Although something has been reported to the Gardai, they can't take any action without a reasonable excuse. The main reasonable excuse would have been that a child was in danger, but in order to acertain that a Garda would need a medical/social professional's consultation. And such a person isn't available out of hours because the HSE doesn't provide out of hours social care.

Suicide seems to be quite an issue in small rural communities, particularly in the case of twentysomethings. Has there been any kind of report on the social aspects of this, or otherwise any provision made for services for these people?

Sonners, that's pretty much it. The mother arrived at the local hospital on a Friday evening, looking for a social worker, only to be told that there were no social workers on duty until the following Monday morning.

sonners

From what I can gather, the only help available to people outside of mon-fri 9-5 is the CareDoc system. Which in my opinion is'nt enough. For one, it costs money-which not everyone has. And I'm also unsure as to their authority to declare the parents unfit, take the children away, whatever needs to be done.

thebaz

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

gazzer

It makes me so angry that a tragedy like this can happen. The country is meant to be awash with money yet there are not out of hours care for people with mental illness or in a distressed state..

After that young mother killed herself and her two kids in Wexford 2 years ago (after pleading for help but none fortcoming because it was a weekend) we were told that things would change and that a tragedy like that would never happen again.. and here we are and nothing has been inplemented in all that time to stop the same thing happening again.

Apparantly you can have a breakdown or be in distress from Monday - Friday (9 -5) in this country and be helped but god forbid you want help out of those hours...

Mrs_Doyle

The more I read/hear about this story, the more upsetting it gets.

There are so many things that could have, and should have been done differently, but they weren't, and now a young family has been wiped out as a result.

In such a small town I am truly surprised that no one, not the HSE, the Gardai, the Priest, the Undertaker, thought to bring their concerns to any of the extended Dunne family.

Perhaps had their parents, or siblings, been aware of such concerns they could have intervened themselves.

Raiser

Vas_Guy wrote:

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

The Irish Independent shed some of its size there not so long ago.....every time the sorry little lump of wasted paper hits the shelves it seems be that bit closer to its goal of clawing its way to the very bottom.

.......At least the rest of the Tabloids admit that they are tasteless rubbish written by knackers with an 8 year olds grasp of the English language.

- Every time they pay Demelza De Burca's salary they are surely commiting themselves to only appealing to the lowest common denominator

p.s I'm not buying this toilet paper - its given out free at work every day :rolleyes:

sonners

thebaz wrote:

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

I do agree with you baz, and fair play to the priests in question. I know we might mock but it does appear that they were genuinely concerned about the family in question and actively tried to do whatever they could in their power. Its a terrible shame that this family felt they had no-one to turn to. No friends, family, somebody.

To me, organising funerals before a death is a cry for help, and I dont know why there were'nt serious alarm bells ringing in the authorities heads. I dont want to blame the authorities (I know its very easy to do) but could the priest have taken those children from their parents? No. Could the undertaker have done more than he did? No. But the authorities could have, they are the ones with the power to act and they should have done so.

sunzz

sunzz
Makes you wonder how you could spot something like this

I wasn't on about the events that unfolded after he went to the funeral home more so about how you can recognise someone's mental state of mind before it gets to out of hand.

Ghost Train

Vas_Guy wrote:

A very sad incident, I think the Irish Independent could be a little more sensitive 'Horror at how a tragic father killed his family' has anybody else noticed that this paper has gone very gutter press, also in it had an another article with a chronology such tragic event through out the country.

over the last few years the independent has run a number of stories with out showing much tact for families involved, definitely a paper i avoid buying

as for what happened, i think warning signs were there and if the guardi were called they should have checked out the situation, that being said i dont think anyone could be expected to link visiting a funeral home with murdering the family, strange as it was its hard to imagine before the event that the family were in such great danger

nesf

thebaz wrote:

why do we always seam to solely blame the authorities , i.e HSE , government . I have first hand experience of how awfull the Health services can be , but depression, suicide , are also a by product of the less caring selfish society we live in .

I'd disagree with you to an extent. Depression isn't just a social malady it is an issue faced in even the most caring societies.



Out of interest, why do people think he was depressed?

seamus

I may be way off here, but did I hear someone on the radio this morning say that the Adrian Dunne's brother had only committed suicide himself recently?

That fact, linked with the need in the first place for the family to have social welfare consultations, should be ringing all sorts of alarm bells.

petes

seamus wrote:

I may be way off here, but did I hear someone on the radio this morning say that the Adrian Dunne's brother had only committed suicide himself recently?

That fact, linked with the need in the first place for the family to have social welfare consultations, should be ringing all sorts of alarm bells.

Not sure if it was suicide but his brother died about a month ago.

Whatever happened, it was a major screw-up for social services. Their service really needs to be reviewed after something that could have been solved.

Ronan|Raven

Surely in this day and age in our country of apparent affluence we can afford to pay members of the HSE and other bodies to be available on the weekend?

arseagon

petes wrote:

Not sure if it was suicide but his brother died about a month ago.

Yes it was suicide. I've a feeling this is going to turn into a farce of one official body blaming the other for not doing their job and vice versa.

Terrible tragedy, I still can't believe it.

thebaz

nesf wrote:

I'd disagree with you to an extent. Depression isn't just a social malady it is an issue faced in even the most caring societies.



Out of interest, why do people think he was depressed?

Well i know from my own personal experince and from being around many parts of Dublin , that many people are not getting the help they need -- and its down to money -- 20 years ago Ireland was a much more caring society and suicide and depression were much less common -- wealthy Westerm cultures seam to allow depression to thrive , with a cost cutting culture, that encourages selfishness and mass materialism -- there are many benefits to the society we live in, but many do get left behind , and feal worthless.

InFront

What a sad story. I heard on the News At One on Radio1 that there is going to be an independent investigation of how the authorities reacted. The most disturbing thing from that report is that when the Gardai were alerted by the undertaker, a police-car drove up and down past the house a few times on the Saturday, but nobody called in.

Having said that, it seems that blame for these deaths does not lie squarely on anyone's shoulders outside the house, i.e. it was suicide and murder, and the guilty party (or parties) are gone.
Just because the police and the HSE are next in position as the focus of blame doesn't necessarily mean they deserve 'blame' or the public focus of anger.
But by all accounts, those in charge of suicide prevention and mental health services seem to need to take a long hard look at the service they are providing.

nesf

thebaz wrote:

Well i know from my own personal experince and from being around many parts of Dublin , that many people are not getting the help they need -- and its down to money -- 20 years ago Ireland was a much more caring society and suicide and depression were much less common -- wealthy Westerm cultures seam to allow depression to thrive , with a cost cutting culture, that encourages selfishness and mass materialism -- there are many benefits to the society we live in, but many do get left behind , and feal worthless.

I'd disagree again. I'm originally from a rural area and depression and suicide has been a problem for a very long time. The only difference is that deaths are now being reported as suicides where before they were "accidents" and so on. There might be a rise in cases, I don't know for sure, but depression was common 20/30/40 years ago. Speaking from personal experience etc.

thebaz

nesf wrote:

I'd disagree again. I'm originally from a rural area and depression and suicide has been a problem for a very long time. The only difference is that deaths are now being reported as suicides where before they were "accidents" and so on. There might be a rise in cases, I don't know for sure, but depression was common 20/30/40 years ago. Speaking from personal experience etc.

I've heard that something like 30% of the supposed civilsed Western World are on anti-depressants -- if were so wealthy why are so many of us unhappy with what we have ?

nesf

thebaz wrote:

I've heard that something like 30% of the supposed civilsed Western World are on anti-depressants -- if were so wealthy why are so many of us unhappy with what we have ?

30%? Could you link to stats backing that up? (it just sounds very high to me, yes anti-depressants are over-prescribed but to that level?).

Also, this is taking this thread off topic. If you want we can discuss this in a separate thread, this is an issue that interests me.

Just following up on the facilities end of it.
I know of a weekend suicide locally last year where the family were desperately trying to get psychiatric help for a 21 yr old and were told to wait untill monday.
He killed himself on saturday night.

Can you imagine if that was applied to A&E...

thebaz

Someone working in the field told me the 30% figure, i think it related to the UK, in a report conducted by English Independent -- back to topic , and to Tistrame's point , it always seemd bizarre to me that psychiatric facilities were run on a 9-5, mon -fri basis , and that is the reality , unless physical self harm is actually inflicted .. its like people are only going to suffer acute depression between mans pre -defined working hours -- people will be content at the weekend , and after 5 pm -- this needs to get adressed quickly, as a proper weekend service needs to be provided urgently, as suicide becomes more prevalent in Irish society , and is effecting more and more families.

Marksie

Tristrame wrote:

Just following up on the facilities end of it.
I know of a weekend suicide locally last year where the family were desperately trying to get psychiatric help for a 21 yr old and were told to wait untill monday.
He killed himself on saturday night.

Can you imagine if that was applied to A&E...

Wasn't there something similar in wexford again. the mother came in asking for an out of hours social worker. The nurse said no and she drowned herself and her two kids.

It is blood awful whats happening while the rich get richer

mickd

This is indeed a tragic but avoidable incident. It is also a classic example an Irish trait taken to an extreme. To some its easy going/laid back attitude, to others with a greater awareness its inertia. Alarm bells ring nothing gets done and then the usual 'hand-wringing' nonsense follows. Its not just a question of resources its a societal problem.

xebec

Mods: move to Wexford forum?

Ghupta Yahd

It a very sad affair. The more I hear the stranger the story gets. It may be wise to get all facts before apportioning blame.

thebaz

xebec wrote:

Mods: move to Wexford forum?

Why ?? is it not a national issue !

nesf

xebec wrote:

Mods: move to Wexford forum?

In fairness it's national news and it isn't only relevant to people in Wexford. Versus someone asking about pubs in Wexford which isn't either of the above.

The Queen

TV3 news reported that the father went to the care takers WITH his wife and kids... Apparently he was blind and she had vision impairment. Maybe they had a pact agreed or something... I mean, wouldn't you be wondering why you were at a caretakers, with your husband,arranging your funeral? Obviously, you would tell someone otherwise,try and get the kids away, get your husband locked up?
Awful tragedy. Those poor little girls.... It's disgusting

seamus

thebaz wrote:

I've heard that something like 30% of the supposed civilsed Western World are on anti-depressants -- if were so wealthy why are so many of us unhappy with what we have ?

Certainly anti depressant consumption has skyrocketed in the western world in recent times. I'm not sure if it's anything approaching what you quote, but the main reason why more people are on anti-depressants is easy: Marketing. The drugs companies push their drugs as being catch-all solutions, and consumer and medical professionals alike lap it up. Many patients go into doctors' surgeries basically demanding antidepressants, any most doctors would give in and prescribe them.

Ritalin is a good example of good marketing. In 1990, just over 900,000 US Children were on Ritalin as treatment for ADHD. By 2001, this number was at 6,000,000. Now, do you think that suddenly children started developing ADHD? Or perhaps it was that the company who make Ritalin pumped medical professionals full of benefits and cash bonusses, and the general consumer so full of FUD that ritalin became the wonder drug that would solve all of their problems?

A rise in consumption of antidepressants does not mean a rise in depression, any more than a increase in petrol usage means that people are driving longer distances

gyppo

Just heard the tail end of the news headlines a few minutes ago.
The mother of the dead man asked why their family was not contacted by the guards/priest/HSE when they became alarmed? Fair point, imo.

nlgbbbblth

seamus wrote:

I may be way off here, but did I hear someone on the radio this morning say that the Adrian Dunne's brother had only committed suicide himself recently?

Yes.
I was down visiting my parents a few weeks ago and caught up with back issues of the local paper, The New Ross Standard.

A recent issue had a headline on the front along the lines of 'Three tragic deaths' - with photographs of three people who had died in the previous week in unconnected circumstances. As far as I know, one of these was a brother of Mr Dunne.

At no stage in any of the newspaper reports was the cause of death given - aside from 'died tragically at home'.

My father was able to confirm that all three people had taken their own lives by a variety of means. No doubt about it.

If somebody dies in a road accident, the cause of death is reported as such.

In another edition of the newspaper, probably a couple of weeks beforehand, there was a notice about a health board public meeting on the youth suicide problem.

What suicide problem?

If we're to go by the media's highly selective, irresponsible, misleading and inaccurate reporting, there is little or no suicide in Ireland.

People can sweep it under the carpet all the like and not report the facts for fear of upsetting the families. That won't make the problem go away.

Judt

Second time something like this has happened on the HSE's watch. The Gardai are also in a major arse-covering exercise, all their spokesman could do was say "That's a matter for the HSE..." Playing musical chairs with people's lives in one of the richest countries in the world.

"Incompetence on the part of some of Ireland's most important institutions," as somebody put it to me today. "Who'd have ever heard the like?"

InFront

nlgbbbblth wrote:

People can sweep it under the carpet all the like and not report the facts for fear of upsetting the families. That won't make the problem go away.

Agreed. There was a really interesting article published in The Irish Times a few weeks ago about reporting suicide in the media. The reason why we hear so much about road traffic crashes is that the media give it a lot of airtime.

Suicide gets far less coverage, why? If we know the stigma is undeserved, why do we invest in it?
There was a Consultant Psychiatrist on Drivetime this evening who quoted a figure that 38% of Irish men have little to no understanding of depression, recognizing danger signs, or how to go about going about getting professional help.

thebaz

seamus wrote:

A rise in consumption of antidepressants does not mean a rise in depression, any more than a increase in petrol usage means that people are driving longer distances

OK then , if we are so happy , why then is binge drinking and cocaine consumtion rocketing , along with legal anti-depressants ? why can't the health service cope with the number of people with mental health issues ? why are all drug treatment centres full ? why are there so many reports of suicide ? -- it strikes me that those getting left behind by the Celtic tiger , the more vulnerable, are not getting the treatment needed , and us "normal" folks arn't too happy with our busy materialistic lifestyles either .

DublinWriter

zippy28 wrote:

Yes it was suicide. I've a feeling this is going to turn into a farce of one official body blaming the other for not doing their job and vice versa.

Indeed. Queue the inevitable tribunal that will cost zillions and in five years time will tell us that someone, somewhere fucked up and that a 'root and branch' reorganisation of the various agencies needs to be carried out 'going forward'.

Basically, nothing will be done.

The state of the mental health system in this country is a disgrace. More people die of suicide per year than on the roads. The only reason nothing is done about this is because it's damn near impossible to slap penalty points on someone for having suicidal tendencies.

nlgbbbblth

People are very reluctant to discuss or confront the reasons for suicides.

Depression is frequently dismissed as 'he suffers from his nerves' (likewise for women).

I'll bet that while people will tut-tut in sympathy and horror, very few will discuss / broach the topic of suicide with the bereaved families.

Newspapers reporting that 'Mr x died tragically at home' is an insult to the readers' intelligence.

Mrs. MacGyver

People should be more open when talking of depression instead of dismissing it as a 'minor malady' or a 'state of nerves' . I come from a family where there was a double suicide of two brothers (a few years apart). If there wasnt such a view in society maby people would be encouraged to get help. People should talk more at home and not make light of small things that could actually be a huge deal for the person concerned (i.e. use tact but dont treat them like they are in a glass case either). There is definately a need for counselling/advice centres to be open at weekends for people to turn to as people can be at a low point say when thay dont have acess to their kids etc. at a weekend or worried over finances. The Wexford incident was a great tragedy that may have been prevented if persons were more proactive instead of passing the buck. If the police were concerned they should have acted not passed the matter on to the clergy (whom i agree did the best they could). The greatest tradgedy in our society is the passivity of others.

Tom Dunne

nlgbbbblth wrote:

If we're to go by the media's highly selective, irresponsible, misleading and inaccurate reporting, there is little or no suicide in Ireland.

People can sweep it under the carpet all the like and not report the facts for fear of upsetting the families. That won't make the problem go away.

Excellent point.

Is it getting to the stage that a certain percentage of rural males see no option other than suicide? Not for a minute ignoring the fact that it happens in cities too, but does it appear to be more prevalent in rural areas?

As appears to be the case in this unfortunate family's case, what support is available for those with such tendancies outside of the major population areas? Are priests now the stand-in for a proper mental-health services? Hind sight is a wonderful thing, but what about common sense? Surely a young man who brings his family in to organise coffins for them has problems? What kind of spluttering gob****e of a Garda sits around twiddling his thumbs knowning a man has made enquiries about burying himself, his wife and his two young kids? What kind of health-care worker gets a call out of hours about a situtation of this gravity and says "sorry, we don't do weekends"?

Heads have to roll for this.

Nevyn

How many of the boy racer deaths are autosucides ?

nlgbbbblth

Thaedydal wrote:

How many of the boy racer deaths are autosucides ?

Some of them are but once again are not reported as such.

Media reporting on road accidents leaves a lot to be desired too.

Each report should contain details of
- Speed at impact of collision
- Seatbelt status
- Blood alcohol level
- Likely cause of accident
- If the driver is underage / does not have a full licence or has taken the car without permission then this should be highlighted

If this information is not immediately available it should be reported when it does come to light.

Something all the lines of

'That fatal crash we reported one month ago. Results have shown that the driver, Mr X of [address] was four times over the limit.'

That might help prevent subsequent accidents.

But it won't happen.

Why?

Because once again, we are afraid of 'upsetting the families'. :rolleyes: