The Nurses.

ExoduS 18.11 · 09-04-2007 08:39PM

Seanies32 wrote:

Actually, I think the PNA have done their members a disservice by going with the INO on the demands.

Pschy. Nursing is a dangerous job but I think they are paid more than General Nurses to compensate. But off course, there is the argument that if you didn't realise working in the Pschy. sector wasn't going to be dangerous well then you shouldn't really be there.

Also, I'm sure she got paid extra for doing more than 35 hours.

Also, I've heard Pschy. nurses laughing about going on training days to hotels and getting paid for them. Free lunches as well.

Well in my opinion everyone has the right to safe enviroment to live and work, standards which are not meant to be kept by the employees, but the employer. Yes but the argument of nurses "skiving" off on 35 hours a week is ridiculous! Well if training days could be held in the hospital , i.e. proper facilities were in place, then im sure hotels could be cut from the equation. Free lunches? even nurses have to eat too

FlutterinBantam · 09-04-2007 08:47PM

Nurses are losing the PR battle hands down. yesterdays papers sowed it into them and imo rightly so.

Doran had led them up a cul-de-sac and hopefully Harney and Ahearn will have the balls to shout stop before the Public service pay bill bankrupts the country.

they have my vote if the stand up to greed and selfishness.

ucd_guy · 09-04-2007 09:34PM

Judt wrote:

How would you suggest nurses put their point across when other means fail, pray tell?

I agree a strike is the next step but think it shouldn't affect theatre, A&E, ICU and other essential areas.

hobbes wrote:

10% isn't unreasonable if your making minimum wage in a job that requires formal training and certification. It is unreasonable if they were making 50K already.

35 Hour week is a reasonable request as well.

As it stands now Nurses do their own work, clerical work and some Doctors work as well (where approved to), yet are expected to work for crap wages?

35 hour working week is grand. Let them off, why not. 10% pay hike seems a bit much, but whatever. The two of them together is a bit Irish though.

And as for the whole bull**** of not answering phones, this is the most annoying crap of all. Phones are an essential tool for doing a job. Doctors do clerical work, pharmacists, physios, radiographers - even the cleaners have to fill out a form here and there for ****s sake. As it is the nurses are refusing to answer any phones, except for critical matters directly related to patient care, which begs the question, how do they know if it's a critical phone call or not? What'd happen if a doctor refused to use pens and papers because they aren't covered in their job description?!

(There's a big problem with this mentality in the health service in my opinion - people refusing to do tasks like wheel a patient down the hall or pick a bloody tissue up off the floor because of the old mantra of "it's not my job". But that's a whole other issue.)

K-9 · 09-04-2007 10:10PM

ExoduS 18.11 wrote:

Well in my opinion everyone has the right to safe enviroment to live and work, standards which are not meant to be kept by the employees, but the employer. Yes but the argument of nurses "skiving" off on 35 hours a week is ridiculous! Well if training days could be held in the hospital , i.e. proper facilities were in place, then im sure hotels could be cut from the equation. Free lunches? even nurses have to eat too

But how can you guarentee employees safety in a high security, lock down Pyschiatric ward. Bye it's nature it isn't safe. They are dealing with dangerous people, often pyschotic or people on suicide watch. Again, if you don't think you aren't going to come across these type of people in your job/training as a Pyschiatric Nurse well then you are in the wrong job. What next, we have to guarentee Guards/Prison wards safety.

On the training I didn't say it was for 35 hours. Whether you hold them in hotels or Hospitals doesn't really stop some nurses laughing about how a training day is so cushy.

ucd_guy · 09-04-2007 10:45PM

Seanies32 wrote:

Also, I've heard Pschy. nurses laughing about going on training days to hotels and getting paid for them. Free lunches as well.

Nothing wrong with that - everyone I know is in good form if they get a cushy training day!

SimpleSam06 · 09-04-2007 11:42PM

Judt wrote:

I'm suggesting that perhaps the gap between a successful person in the professional business world and a professional nurse should be closed.

Absoloutely. Private sector wages should be increased to match the wages of nurses, especially directly out of college, then increased by another 30% so that the equivalent in pension benefits can be earned by private sector workers. Also it should be made impossible to fire private sector workers, no matter how lazy or incompetent they are. That should even the scales.

Oh no wait, we can't do that, all employers would vacate Ireland so fast you wouldn't see them for dust, and those precious taxes that pay for those public service benefits and wages would dry up, and then the nurses would all leave because we can't pay them, and we'd have to import nurses from places like the Philippines, as we did in the 80s.

Hmmm...

K-9 · 10-04-2007 12:10AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Absoloutely. Private sector wages should be increased to match the wages of nurses, especially directly out of college, then increased by another 30% so that the equivalent in pension benefits can be earned by private sector workers. Also it should be made impossible to fire private sector workers, no matter how lazy or incompetent they are. That should even the scales.

Oh no wait, we can't do that, all employers would vacate Ireland so fast you wouldn't see them for dust, and those precious taxes that pay for those public service benefits and wages would dry up, and then the nurses would all leave because we can't pay them, and we'd have to import nurses from places like the Philippines, as we did in the 80s.

Hmmm...

Couldn't have put it better myself

There seems to be no grasp of economic realites with public sector pay and nurses demands.

The Public sector is paid on average 43% more than the private sector. Lets pay the nurses more to increase that difference.

That seems to suggest that public sector pay isn't the issue here. Give Nurses there 35 hour week and 10% increase. Then wait for all those other public sector unions to say, wait a minute we're undervalued and underpaid to. We want 10% as well.

Interesting link on public sector pay:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006397.shtml

These suggests that the last thing we should be considering is increasing some public sector pay rates but actually reforming some of the overpaid workers first and then considering wage increases.

41% of the Public sector pay bill is on health already. What do we think maybe 45 or 50% is fair. You are talking those sort of figures if the Nurses get their demands and we have to employ something like 4,000 extra nurses to cover the loss in job hours.

If the nurses get their demands, the next thing from the INO will be, we need more nurses to cover our shorter week and extra responsibilities and work practices that we agreed to.

FlutterinBantam · 10-04-2007 09:45AM

Excellent post there Seanies...all points covered.

Give in to this and as sure as eggs is eggs Doran will be on with the never ending mantra of his,more this ,more that, never a Maxi mentch about actually producing more productivity from the nurses,reducing absenteeism,weeding out the malingerers and generally putting the Health sector on a sound efficient footing.

thebitterpill · 10-04-2007 10:08AM

Hobbes wrote:

I hate percentages. I really hate percentages.

10% isn't unreasonable if your making minimum wage in a job that requires formal training and certification. It is unreasonable if they were making 50K already.

Right. Everyone wants more money. Have yet to meet someone who wants their pay reduced rather than increased. The real question is, are there salaries so severely dire and out of sync with the rest of the Irish population that it justifies a strike?

35 Hour week is a reasonable request as well.

Sure it's reasonable. But 39 hours a week is not a crippling stint by any means. If you really want to worry about working hours then maybe you should consider that many junior doctors are doing in excess of 100 hours per week often with little rest. Now that is a critically dangerous situation that MIGHT justify a strike. BUt going from 39 to 35 hours is more of a want, that while reasonable, cannot be used to justify a strike.

As it stands now Nurses do their own work, clerical work and some Doctors work as well (where approved to), yet are expected to work for crap wages?

Nurses are not exclusive in this regard. Junior doctors for example do the work of a phlebotomist, sometimes the work of nurses, the work of porters as well as clerical work in addition to their own duties as trained medical doctors. It's a sucky situation and needs to be fixed all around, but how is their wage 'crap?' That part is demonstrably false. 55k average a year is not crap by any means. (junior doctors have the same basic pay as that of nurses)

What is nursing after all? The word itself implies to me to provide aid to those who are ill and to 'nurse,' them back to health. I would say that providing a communication link between a sick individual and their family would be a vital part of that process. Maybe the definitions need to be established more clearly, but they aren't as blurred as some might think.

What is interesting is the government worked the average Nurse wage at €56,000. That is an average, considering most nurses are poorly paid I'd very much like to see the spread of the wages.

How do you knowthat most nurses are poorly paid? From what I've seen, most nurses' basic pay is around the same as th basic pay of non-consultant doctors with similar experience. I'd say the pay even scales to the top level, with senior most nurses being paid around 120-150k per year, which again is the same basic pay as a consultant.

But the one thing to realise in this is that most of the time demands are not what they actually want. Anyone who goes into a negotiation with a fixed demand is not going to get anything. Better to ask for more then you want and you can compromise later.

We can't read there minds and debate about what they might be thinking they really want. All we can see is the demands they make and judge them according to the current situation.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-04-2007 10:47AM

PeakOutput wrote:

no because apparentyl they do get paid less than the unqualified health care assistants that they work beside which is not fair imo thats why i think they should get the money

shorter week.....its laughable

Is that so?.

Well its pretty much the same the Guards and the Army.

I'm a member of the Defence Forces and sometimes have to work alongside civilian's in the army who are getting paid more than me, without the hassle's of 24hr duties, oversea's service, exercises etc etc etc... The Guard's operate with pretty much the same BS where some guards get paid more for working less etc... But to get to the point I'm going to make..

If the Defence Forces & the Police are considered essential services, and the nurse's paint themselves in the same light, then they (the nurse's) like the Army & Guards shouldn't be allowed to strike.

Simple as!. Legally I'm not allowed to strike because I'm considered to provide an essential service to the state.

Oh, and 35hr week and the money the nurse's are earning!. Wouldn't that be a nice one for us all?.

thebitterpill · 10-04-2007 11:17AM

Well a reduction of 4 hours in their work week with even the same wage as now is already more than a 10% increase in their wages, and that's in addition to whatever benchmarking throws out.

tinner777 · 10-04-2007 11:47AM

Seanies32 wrote:

Actually, I think the PNA have done their members a disservice by going with the INO on the demands.

Pschy. Nursing is a dangerous job but I think they are paid more than General Nurses to compensate. But off course, there is the argument that if you didn't realise working in the Pschy. sector wasn't going to be dangerous well then you shouldn't really be there.

Also, I'm sure she got paid extra for doing more than 35 hours.

Also, I've heard Pschy. nurses laughing about going on training days to hotels and getting paid for them. Free lunches as well.

your having a laugh the only training days most psych nurses in cork get are on their days off, no pay and the joke that is time due in return, and i doubt a couple of stale sandwiches should be a reason against a pay rise!!!

ExoduS 18.11 · 10-04-2007 01:26PM

ucd_guy wrote:

And as for the whole bull**** of not answering phones, this is the most annoying crap of all. Phones are an essential tool for doing a job. Doctors do clerical work, pharmacists, physios, radiographers - even the cleaners have to fill out a form here and there for ****s sake. As it is the nurses are refusing to answer any phones, except for critical matters directly related to patient care, which begs the question, how do they know if it's a critical phone call or not? What'd happen if a doctor refused to use pens and papers because they aren't covered in their job description?!

Well frankly, if its a work to rule, they have to not answer the phones to let the point of the whole thing get through. They have to not do something to do something, (thats makes sense right ??

). Not that they dont answer the phones anyways before this industrial action? A ward clark is meant to be responsible for answering the phones and other such work.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

they have my vote if the stand up to greed and selfishness.

Heil FlutterinBantam!! *duckmarches*

ucd_guy wrote:

(There's a big problem with this mentality in the health service in my opinion - people refusing to do tasks like wheel a patient down the hall or pick a bloody tissue up off the floor because of the old mantra of "it's not my job". But that's a whole other issue.)

I agree with this, but dont only tie it to the health service, in fact its fair to say this can be applied to nearly all areas of work in this country. Provided different examples are used. i.e shop worker refusing to pick up a paper off the floor, as it is the janitors job.

K-9 · 10-04-2007 01:28PM

tinner777 wrote:

your having a laugh the only training days most psych nurses in cork get are on their days off, no pay and the joke that is time due in return, and i doubt a couple of stale sandwiches should be a reason against a pay rise!!!

Well you should get on to your union then.:)

They must be treated better in Donegal.

thebitterpill wrote:

Well a reduction of 4 hours in their work week with even the same wage as now is already more than a 10% increase in their wages, and that's in addition to whatever benchmarking throws out.

Same wage for a shorter wage wouldn't be good enough. They need 10% extra as well. Though probably for the nurses that work less than 39 hours. The Unions have to give them something to.

10-04-2007 01:47PM

Doctors are not allowed to strike in public hospitals, why should nurses?

Why should they get 10% wage increase without mentioning the generous above inflation pay increase in benchmarking. And without any linking to increased productivity?

Fighting Irish · 10-04-2007 03:08PM

I say give them they're 10% rise and have them keep their 39 hour week.

Isn't this like the teacher strike where teachers were not getting paid for lunch hours etc

Fighting Irish · 10-04-2007 04:11PM

Anyone know how much nurses start on?

PeakOutput · 10-04-2007 04:26PM

Fighting Irish wrote:

Anyone know how much nurses start on?

around 30-32k

SimpleSam06 · 10-04-2007 04:40PM

Fighting Irish wrote:

Anyone know how much nurses start on?

Jesus Christ man read the discussion. Third person to ask this since I posted the exact wage. It just occurred to me, the nurses can keep working their current 39 hour week with no changes, business as usual, except they get paid overtime for the last four hours.

Plus a 10% pay rise!

PeakOutput · 10-04-2007 04:44PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Jesus Christ man read the discussion. Third person to ask this since I posted the exact wage. It just occurred to me, the nurses can keep working their current 39 hour week with no changes, business as usual, except they get paid overtime for the last four hours.

Plus a 10% pay rise!

if they agree to this it kinda flies in the face that there claim is anything other than money driven

tinner777 · 10-04-2007 04:50PM

Fighting Irish wrote:

Anyone know how much nurses start on?

Salary Scales Applicable from 1st June 2006
(Following application of 2.5% cost of living increase as provided for under Sustaining Progress)

Student Nurse III
22901
Student Nurse(Degree Student 12 month rostered placement)
23102
Student Nurse Mental Handicap (Degree student 12 month rostered placement)
23102
Post Registered Student Nurse
24771 26248
Student Midwife
28878
Student Paediatric Nurse
28878
Staff Nurse (including...Registered Midwife Registered Sick Children's Nurse Registered Mental Handicap Nurse)
28878 30323 31772 33218 34659 35904 37152 38395 39639 40861

you start on 28872 and move up each year

mountainyman · 10-04-2007 06:09PM

Seanies32 wrote:

Then how come Public sector wages are higher than private sector.
...
Of course 43% is a generalisation and there are anomalies but overall this would show that Public sector wages are a serious problem, not private sector wages.

If you are a wage earner in the private sector then your attitude is self defeating. If private sector wages are not rising in a period of rapid inflation then that is a serious problem.

MM

mountainyman · 10-04-2007 06:14PM

The simple fact is that people have to die for this strike to work. If the nurses won't let people die then they will lose.

I support the nurses and I will support them when a few smelly coffin dodgers stop dodging the coffin. With the grossly inflated state pension these days they will be doing us all a favour.

MM

mountainyman · 10-04-2007 06:19PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Absoloutely. Private sector wages should be increased to match the wages of nurses, especially directly out of college, then increased by another 30% so that the equivalent in pension benefits can be earned by private sector workers. Also it should be made impossible to fire private sector workers, no matter how lazy or incompetent they are. That should even the scales.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

irrelevant babble

I agree.

35 hour week and 10% pay rise across the boards and if empolyers don't liek it kill them and nationalise the business.

MM

PeakOutput · 10-04-2007 10:10PM

mountainyman wrote:

The simple fact is that people have to die for this strike to work. If the nurses won't let people die then they will lose.

I support the nurses and I will support them when a few smelly coffin dodgers stop dodging the coffin. With the grossly inflated state pension these days they will be doing us all a favour.

MM

its the public center pensions that are the real money sinks but clearly you dont really care about balancing the books if your willing to give them a 25% hourly wage increase that will necessitate the hiring of one more nurse for every 7 currently employed..

no1 has told me how this can possibly work you seem to conveniently ignore my points.............a cynic(spelling) would say thats because they are infallible

PeakOutput · 10-04-2007 10:14PM

if you are stupid enough to think privatisation(not nationalisation) would solve the nurses problem you really need to wake up and smell the disinfectant.............lets see what would happen

pension drastically reduced if not removed to stay inline with other private/profit seeking companies

no pay rise without measurable performance increase..........director laughing in the face of the unions at a shorter working week

increase in the cost of the health service bill

only advantage would be the removal of the dead weight administrators

edited coz i misread the quote completely

SimpleSam06 · 10-04-2007 10:53PM

tinner777 wrote:

Salary Scales Applicable from 1st June 2006
(Following application of 2.5% cost of living increase as provided for under Sustaining Progress)

Oh yes and of course nurses get paid to go to college, forgot that one. Hmmm. So starting, out of college, its over €31,000 per annum. Really, until everyone starts getting paid 25 grand a year to go to college, your comment is hardly applicable.

mountainyman wrote:

The simple fact is that people have to die for this strike to work. If the nurses won't let people die then they will lose. I support the nurses and I will support them when a few smelly coffin dodgers stop dodging the coffin.

So let me get this straight, you support the murder of senior citizens through negligence, and the nationalisation of all businesses in some sort of a communist gulag state.

How have you not gotten banned for trolling yet?

K-9 · 11-04-2007 12:30AM

mountainyman wrote:

If you are a wage earner in the private sector then your attitude is self defeating. If private sector wages are not rising in a period of rapid inflation then that is a serious problem.

MM

Exactly, private wages aren't going up as much. Which begs the question how can the state afford the nurses demands now and another round of public sector pay benchmaking.

The tax revenues will run out eventually with high inflation and low private sector wages leaving just high paid public sector workers.

K-9 · 11-04-2007 12:35AM

mountainyman wrote:

The simple fact is that people have to die for this strike to work. If the nurses won't let people die then they will lose.

I support the nurses and I will support them when a few smelly coffin dodgers stop dodging the coffin. With the grossly inflated state pension these days they will be doing us all a favour.

MM

Oh yeah and less money for pensions to.

Fighting Irish · 11-04-2007 01:30AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Jesus Christ man read the discussion. Third person to ask this since I posted the exact wage. It just occurred to me, the nurses can keep working their current 39 hour week with no changes, business as usual, except they get paid overtime for the last four hours.

Plus a 10% pay rise!

i want to read through 18 pages of gay?

:rolleyes:

The Nurses.

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