The Nurses.

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:38PM

Look mate..( I hate that expression by the way) sounds like you have a set of tats on your arm.

Bottom line.... nurses are on a solo run and for the Govt to concede would leave the way open for major knock on claims, at major expense to the taxpayer.

Public sector pay bill would rocket,and I for one,do not think that scenario is justified.Not by a long long shot.

So nurse ,you can bang away to your hearts content,even thought I un derstand you are not in Ireland,you will never convince this poster that the current industrial action is justified.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:50PM

Bottom line.... nurses are on a solo run and for the Govt to concede would leave the way open for major knock on claims, at major expense to the taxpayer.

of which I'm one........

Public sector pay bill would rocket,and I for one,do not think that scenario is justified.Not by a long long shot.

so are you saying that this is your only objection the the claims? and that you agree that the essence of the claims is justified? just the the mechanism to fix the issues doesn't exist?

So nurse ,you can bang away to your hearts content,even thought I understand you are not in Ireland,

not in Ireland? what do you mean? I'm in Dublin.

you will never convince this poster that the current industrial action is justified.

i'm not trying to convince you really. but i have asked 2 questions of you, which again you have dodged, and looks like you've decided to take yourself out of the debate, so i guess i'll not get any answers to them.

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:53PM

Sorry mate... what questions ,direct questions ,did you ask,and I am not taking myself out of the debate much as you might like it.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 07:56PM

nurse_baz wrote:

not in Ireland? what do you mean? I'm in Dublin.

Perhaps the confusion was caused by.......

nurse_baz wrote:

Meanwhile, me and all my mates have pissed of to OZ/USA where condtions are better and i feel much more valued

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:59PM

nurse_baz wrote:

so do you conceed that nurses are delivering the fabled productivity that you speak of?

and then what would your advice be when the benchmarking process that we've already tried twice to get to solve things, doesn't solve anything?

here

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 08:03PM

So nurse ,you can bang away to your hearts content,even thought I un derstand you are not in Ireland,you will never convince this poster that the current industrial action is justified.

it was just the use of this phrase that made me think you were leaving. and I've no issue at all with you discussing the issues, sure its a open forum for that kind of thing, isn't it? Really if i had a problem with that kind of thing wouldn't that just show that I'm not being convinced by my own arguments? You disagreeing with everything is actually a good thing IMO, gives some of the rest of us, with different views to refute what you say and maybe make our point of view more well understood

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 08:33PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

take your claim through the benchmarking process like everyone else...thats all;)

here

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 08:36PM

nurse_baz wrote:

it was just the use of this phrase that made me think you were leaving. and I've no issue at all with you discussing the issues, sure its a open forum for that kind of thing, isn't it? Really if i had a problem with that kind of thing wouldn't that just show that I'm not being convinced by my own arguments? You disagreeing with everything is actually a good thing IMO, gives some of the rest of us, with different views to refute what you say and maybe make our point of view more well understood

yeah ..sure it does indeed .

And it give the rest of us a chance to voice our opinion ,which on the last viewing of the poll is not in your favour nurse.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 08:36PM

and your thoughts on the productivity issue that you were writing about?

and you'd still recommend benchmarking? taking into account that it has both failed to even discuss nurses issues within the health service and also that it has been broken by several other groups of employees, proving that it is not the only mechanism availible to resolve issues

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 08:44PM

I presume there is a mechanism to measure productivity in the benchmarking process??

Surely you are not suggesting that nursing is so complicated that processes for measuring productivity cannot be be put in place.

Then the measurements are taken and if the pay rise can be paid for by the productivity increase,then Bob's yer uncle.

hopefully there are none of these paper productivity exercises in the nursing profession surely not!!;)

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 08:55PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I presume there is a mechanism to measure productivity in the benchmarking process??

Surely you are not suggesting that nursing is so complicated that processes for measuring productivity cannot be be put in place.

Then the measurements are taken and if the pay rise can be paid for by the productivity increase,then Bob's yer uncle.

hopefully there are none of these paper productivity exercises in the nursing profession surely not!!;)

but you see there's the thing, nurses have already repeatly said that they were totally open to reform and expanding their job roles, thats been part of this whole campaign. see my previous post on how nurses have pretty much been leading the healthcare sector when it comes to reform and gettng more out of the nurses we already have.

productivity measurement has to be relevant to the role in question. I've no idea how you suggest we measure this in a nurses case or for that matter a teacher or a doctor. certain jobs lend themselves to this obviously, eg sales. the problem with healthcare is that if you start to introduce things like targets into it then people can focus solely on this, and not on the patient care. that I'm sure you'd agree is dangerous.

kizzyr · 04-04-2007 09:30PM

nurse_baz wrote:

but you see there's the thing, nurses have already repeatly said that they were totally open to reform and expanding their job roles, thats been part of this whole campaign. see my previous post on how nurses have pretty much been leading the healthcare sector when it comes to reform and gettng more out of the nurses we already have.

productivity measurement has to be relevant to the role in question. I've no idea how you suggest we measure this in a nurses case or for that matter a teacher or a doctor. certain jobs lend themselves to this obviously, eg sales. the problem with healthcare is that if you start to introduce things like targets into it then people can focus solely on this, and not on the patient care. that I'm sure you'd agree is dangerous.

Exactly.........I have no idea how on earth the government ever intended to use the benchmarking process for nursing staff as there isn't an equivalent type of job in the private sector unlike most of the clerical and admin grades. The closest thing they could go for as far as I can see is the physiotherapists but as they are earning more money than nurses they sure as hell aren't going to opt for that are they.
For all those who are objecting to nurses getting more money and a shorter week because of the extra cost to the health service would it make it better and therefore acceptable if all members of the Service were subject to a performance rating? This is something I think should be in place anyway as there are so many people who take the pi$$ on a daily basis with coming into work late, taking extra long lunch times, using their sick leave as additional annual leave (for some reason my boss leaps to mind with every word I type along these lines:mad: ) and those that weren't performing well enough were either downgraded or those on contracts didn't get them renewed automatically?

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 09:39PM

heh heh heh ..therein lies the problem my friend.

Couldn't have put it better myself.:p

kizzyr · 04-04-2007 10:06PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

heh heh heh ..therein lies the problem my friend.

Couldn't have put it better myself.:p

You mean the lack of any kind of review system within the Health Service? If thats what you mean I'm in total agreement with you.........maybe I should have said that quietly though as any hint of working hard or making sense can get you fired I'm sure of it:p
As I said in one of my earlier posts I'm fully supporting the nurses in what they are asking for not only because a) every one else is getting what they are asking for and b) they do a hugely important stressful job that I don't think I could ever be paid enough to do. Yes there are some really bad nurses who for various reasons couldn't give a damn about what they are doing but for the most part this isn't the case and I think as a society we hugely undervalue nurses, teachers and guards.
What hugely underlines the inequalities within the Service can be seen with this one example. My boss who is on the top end of a grade 7 scale and so earning just under €60k, 30 days leave, flexi time, privilage days etc etc, is so lazy it beggers belief. He never and I mean never answers his phone as this would involve doing some work so its constantly left on voice mail. He has 256 unopened emails never mind all those that have been opened but not answered and the earliest he comes into work is 12 noon. Then 30 minutes later he fecks off on lunch until 2pm, then he heads out to his car for a sleep until 3.30pm, comes back in, turns his PC off again and home he goes. Sometimes he take a half day or what he calls just the morning off. This means he comes into work at 3.50pm just to log onto his PC, heads over to the canteen after 20 minutes or so of checking out local mass times for his tea, comes back in and heads home again. He never and I mean never fills in his leave sheet properly so it looks like he doesn't take his full entitlement of annual leave any year. No one checks up on him so he has gotten away with this forever and yet gets the benefits of the benchmarking process when the nurses have to take a work to rule action. Unfortunately he is one of many like this within the health service but they go unseen and unnoticed by most people.

gandalf · 04-04-2007 11:10PM

Kizzyr have you ever reported your boss or is there a mechanism to report people taking advantage and wasting taxpayers money like this. Its stories like this that get my blood boiling how many more deskfillers like this are in the HSE, Dept of Health and the Civil Service.

I thought the idea of benchmarking was to introduce productivity and weed freeloaders like this out as usual from the government all talk and no trousers.

mikemac · 04-04-2007 11:40PM

Michael O'Leary as Minister for Health! He'd sort this situation out and take on any vested interests in the Health Service

I hope I don't get banned for this:)

K-9 · 05-04-2007 01:26AM

nurse_baz wrote:

well there is only one other union that has nurses and thats SIPTU. the SIPTU nurses make up only a very small part of the overall vote so as most SIPTU heads supported BEnchmarking they didn't really have much of voice. Its interesting though that SIPTU have lodged claims pretty much identical to the INO/PNA with the HSE and all on behalf of their members.

Also anecdotally, and from SIPTU nurse friends, there has been a membership exodus from them to the INO/PNA in the past few months as many feel that they've been sold out

What exactly are the percentages of the union membership for nurses?

If SIPTU Nurses agreed to the pay deal why are they now lodging claims? Sounds like union politics.

I've heard Nurses did ok out of benchmarking. 8-14% seems to be the figures quoted. But don't get me started on the last benchmarking!

Just on pensions, out of interest/curiosity, do the Govt. contribute towards Civil service pensions?

K-9 · 05-04-2007 01:37AM

micmclo wrote:

Michael O'Leary as Minister for Health! He'd sort this situation out and take on any vested interests in the Health Service

I hope I don't get banned for this:)

Or Gerry Robinson. His programme about his work at one hospital in England for the NHS for 6 weeks was amazing.

Cut waiting lists/times with no money, just banging heads together, pointing out the obvious and getting people to workas a team. Everybody had their parts to play.

In fairness to Nurses, they have taken on extra responsibility (e.g. prescribing medicine) which took a battle with the consultants:mad: to be allowed.

Oh yeah, benchmarking was a joke. The Govt. didn't have the b****s to face up to the Unions. Hopefully the next one will be a new and improved version :rolleyes:

kizzyr · 05-04-2007 08:18AM

gandalf wrote:

Kizzyr have you ever reported your boss or is there a mechanism to report people taking advantage and wasting taxpayers money like this. Its stories like this that get my blood boiling how many more deskfillers like this are in the HSE, Dept of Health and the Civil Service.

I thought the idea of benchmarking was to introduce productivity and weed freeloaders like this out as usual from the government all talk and no trousers.

Benchmarking has done a big fat nothing to rid the public service of such freeloaders. With regard to my boss the management know that he is a waster and does nothing at all, my arrival here 2 years ago has really only served to underline that fact. Their response? He has just under 3 years to go until he retires so we'll just leave him alone. :rolleyes: It drives me demented, my parents made sure all of us (their children) had a strong work ethic and so laziness to this level is just completely wrong to me and yet he and many others are allowed to get away with it day after day.......

FlutterinBantam · 05-04-2007 09:24AM

kizzyr wrote:

Benchmarking has done a big fat nothing to rid the public service of such freeloaders. With regard to my boss the management know that he is a waster and does nothing at all, my arrival here 2 years ago has really only served to underline that fact. Their response? He has just under 3 years to go until he retires so we'll just leave him alone. :rolleyes: It drives me demented, my parents made sure all of us (their children) had a strong work ethic and so laziness to this level is just completely wrong to me and yet he and many others are allowed to get away with it day after day.......

So you are trying to get us to believe that there is not a percentage of people in the nursing profession with the same attitude,a substantial percentage.??

You expect the taxpayer to just shovel out the dosh ad infinitum?

Like everywhere in the workforce there is good and bad....nurses are NO exception.

The problems of the health sector is not the fault of management,not the fault of health sector workers,not the fault of the HSE, not the fault of the Unions. Its the whole combination vested interests which guard their patch and ensure that no streamlining,no increased productivity,no fresh thinking ever gets to the patient-the long suffering taxpayer.

Brian Cowan called it Angola-he was right.

FlutterinBantam · 05-04-2007 09:28AM

kizzyr wrote:

For all those who are objecting to nurses getting more money and a shorter week because of the extra cost to the health service would it make it better and therefore acceptable if all members of the Service were subject to a performance rating? This is something I think should be in place anyway as there are so many people who take the pi$$ on a daily basis with coming into work late, taking extra long lunch times, using their sick leave as additional annual leave (for some reason my boss leaps to mind with every word I type along these lines:mad: ) and those that weren't performing well enough were either downgraded or those on contracts didn't get them renewed automatically?

Thats what I mean

gandalf · 05-04-2007 10:38AM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

So you are trying to get us to believe that there is not a percentage of people in the nursing profession with the same attitude,a substantial percentage.??

I would doubt there is. Its one thing being a waster hidden in an office, its another doing it in a public facing position where someone not pulling their weight will add directly to their colleagues already overstretched workload and I am sure would be addressed quite forceably as such (one thing about nurses they ain't shy!). Again all I can speak from is experience and any of the nurses I saw worked their arses off, some had attitudes, some were grumpy others were pleasant no matter what but hey they are human.

IMHO Nursing is not a profession the lazy or the waster would go into in the first place.

You expect the taxpayer to just shovel out the dosh ad infinitum?

Like everywhere in the workforce there is good and bad....nurses are NO exception.

Actually I would disagree with you on this. Nurses are different from the rest of the civil service. Again comparing a nurse to an office worker is nearly ignorant tbh. I would considering Nursing as a vocation and it takes a certain type of person to become a nurse and to continue working as a nurse.

The problems of the health sector is not the fault of management,not the fault of health sector workers,not the fault of the HSE, not the fault of the Unions. Its the whole combination vested interests which guard their patch and ensure that no streamlining,no increased productivity,no fresh thinking ever gets to the patient-the long suffering taxpayer.

You are kidding right, the farce that is the Irish Health Service is the fault of the management, the Dept of Health and the Government. They introduced benchmarking without ensuring that we the taxpayers got a proper return for it. They guaranteed peoples jobs for life when in some cases they no longer had positions. When you amalgamate large organisations then people lose jobs, this never happened when the HSE was formed.

To turn around and present your bile on the nurses because of this is cowardly. The people you need to direct your ire towards is the Government parties, they are the ones who oversaw the creation of the HSE and they are the ones that had the resources to ensure the streamlining of the administrative side of the HSE but as usual they took the easy way out for themselves and left a bigger mess for whoever takes over from them.

Brian Cowan called it Angola-he was right.

I'd just call it a disaster that Biffo Cowan is partly responsible for.

FlutterinBantam · 05-04-2007 10:56AM

Qute an aggressive response Mr G. and unfortunatly you seem to have the same one way glasses as a lot of the posters here.

You mention "Bile". I am merely putting a point forward, I dont see any bile there.

Everyone is responsible for the mess that is the 2007 health service: Doctors Nurses,Management,Consultants,Cleaners ,Admin Staff.

To use a simplistic scenario and just blame the Govt. and Cowan is ,well, I'd rather not say what I think of that argument.

Anyone with a modicum of management experience both in the public sector and Semi-State sector would know the culture and practice which pervades these establishments and to foist allthe blame on management is laughable.

Only Claire Daly would come out with that one

thebaz · 05-04-2007 11:04AM

it seams to me that only those lucky eneogh to work for the Government, i.e. the public sector are allowed strike anymore -- even though there conditions are usually much better than conditions experienced by the private sector --- i have no sympathy for those working in the public sector, they are well looked after and have a cushy number in comparison to there overworked counterparts in the private sector , who do not have the luxury of striking when they experience unfairnes , we just have to get a new job , if we don't like it!

FlutterinBantam · 05-04-2007 11:10AM

Baz ,you certainly could be forgiven for holding that view.

certainly perusing the industrial disputes over the last 3 or four years would support that belief..Aer Lingus ad nauseum,ESB,Iarnrod,Dart,Health Service... i would not be as black and white as you baz, but jaysus you have some merit in those points

gandalf · 05-04-2007 11:13AM

The only glasses I wear sit on my nose.

Ok I will say this slowly for you so you understand, as with every organisation someone needs to lead it and take responsibility, those people are called the Management. When an organisation is not operating as expected the Management are expected to take the remedial action not the staff themselves (unless of course you think we are living in some mad co-op socialist utopia :rolleyes:).

Then again it appears that you do not want to hold the people who have taken the reigns of control of the organisation responsible. If they cannot be held accountable for the failures of the Health Service then why should the civil servants, Doctors, Nurses etc etc etc that work under them.

Dyr · 05-04-2007 11:22AM

Also, judging from pictures on the interweb the amount of blowjobs that nurses have to give patients who've only banged their heads (well one presumes thats why their head is always bandaged) is outrageous. Surely this should be reflected in their pay in comparison to the non oral sex performing civil servants :mad:

FlutterinBantam · 05-04-2007 11:44AM

gandalf wrote:

The only glasses I wear sit on my nose.

Ok I will say this slowly for you so you understand, as with every organisation someone needs to lead it and take responsibility, those people are called the Management. When an organisation is not operating as expected the Management are expected to take the remedial action not the staff themselves (unless of course you think we are living in some mad co-op socialist utopia :rolleyes:).

Then again it appears that you do not want to hold the people who have taken the reigns of control of the organisation responsible. If they cannot be held accountable for the failures of the Health Service then why should the civil servants, Doctors, Nurses etc etc etc that work under them.

I think what I have been saying (AD NAUSEUM) up to now is that EVERYBODYhas a responsilility .

Youv'e heard the old adage"You can bring a horse to water ,but you can't make it drink"?

People who have "the reins" of an organisation certainly have a responsibility,but, if the horses clearly dont want to pull there is very little one can do except replace them with new blood,clearly not applicable in this situation.

If a person decides that the management it totally at fault for all this, as you clearly do,and the workforce has no blame accruing to it whatsoever,well I have not got the wherewithall to rebut that claim except to wonder what planet you are living on

kizzyr · 05-04-2007 12:25PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

So you are trying to get us to believe that there is not a percentage of people in the nursing profession with the same attitude,a substantial percentage.??

You expect the taxpayer to just shovel out the dosh ad infinitum?

Like everywhere in the workforce there is good and bad....nurses are NO exception.

The problems of the health sector is not the fault of management,not the fault of health sector workers,not the fault of the HSE, not the fault of the Unions. Its the whole combination vested interests which guard their patch and ensure that no streamlining,no increased productivity,no fresh thinking ever gets to the patient-the long suffering taxpayer.

Brian Cowan called it Angola-he was right.

I'm not saying that every nurse out there is perfect and that they all work to a 100% level every single day. However it is much easier for someone to swing the lead when they are hidden away in an office out of sight and out of mind than it is in a clinical ward area where everyone can see what you are or are not doing.
As for your statement about expecting the tax payer to hand money out forever..........those who work in the Health Service pay tax too believe it or not so the salaries of nurses aren't a charitable act by the State.
The Health Service is in the state it is because of bad management, a lack of accountability, no one ever has to "earn" their job once they get it, this is one of the worst things, people (like my boss) once they get in and are made permanent know that it is very hard to get rid of them and so if you are a lazy person with no work ethic you can get away with doing damn all. These people get a 35 hour week, flexi leave etc etc but the nurses who can't get away with an attitude like this even if they wanted to have to fight for the same pay and conditions.

gandalf · 05-04-2007 12:30PM

Hehehe ok I probably was a little strong with my words there. You are right to a degree yes everyone has a responibility to do the right thing. However staff basically are sheep and are there to be lead in the direction that the enterprise or organisation is moving and its the management and governments responsibility to do this.

Times have moved on and I agree given that Civil Servants have an equal and in most cases better terms of employment than many in the private sector they too should be held accountable in the same way. If they are not doing their jobs they should be fired. If there are too many of them in a certain section and they cannot be transferred they should be let go.

The Nurses.

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