The Nurses.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:37PM

PeakOutput wrote:

please explain to me how the system will cope with affectively 7k less nurses

when the Unions went in 3 weeks ago to negotiate on the issue, they said to the HSE, we're open to fixing this in a roundabout type of way. we'll get the members to look at their rosters, we'll get them to expand their roles and we'll try to fill the gaps in the service. They also said they would do all of this IMMEDIATELY.........when the HSE were asked for dates and plans for how the 35hr week could be implemented by, they answered that they would have to do a study on the matter, (thats FF/PD/Management code for we'll get some overpriced consultants in from Deloitte et al, and pay them shedloads)

now see, i don't have a major problem with the review of services etc....but i have no faith in the current healthcare management. if i thought, yep they'll get the review done quick and we;ll all talk about it and work out some sort of plan to phase it in, that'd be great. But remember, this issue hasn't crept up on them. 27 years ago it was raised. The INO passed motions in 2001 looking for it again and making it a priority for Benchmarking 1. that was the process that was supposed to sort it all out, without any need for striking or work to rules.....and it didn't. this has been a long time coming lads. whats to stop the HSE reviewing the situation and in 6 months time saying.....well it'll take about 15 years.....so answers no......back to square 1. Meanwhile, me and all my mates have pissed of to OZ/USA where condtions are better and i feel much more valued by the service I'm in

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:39PM

Everyone else in the public sector.

Lets hope one greedy group doesn't drag down the whole Benchmarking Process.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:41PM

Seanies32 wrote:

Sorry Nurze_baz. I do have sympathy for the nurses claim. Don't go on about pensions like that though, won't do your argument any good.

Off course pensions don't do you any good now! But tell that to private sector workers/self-employed who have to fund them out of their wages/take-home pay Now.

It's something public servants have to start taking into consideration They're pension is taken care off before pay, private sector workers pay theirs out of their gross wage.

sorry if i offended you mate, i might have been on a rant

last time i checked i had my pension contributions coming out of my own pay packet, and when i got my financial advisor friend to have a look at my finances in general, and he worked out all the odds and ends, my pension looks like its going to be pretty crappy. SO i've had to start my own private one. i can sympathise/understand your point though and I think pensions in this country are an important issue. I can also see why its a bone of contention any time public pay is mentioned.

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:42PM

nurse_baz wrote:

Meanwhile, me and all my mates have pissed of to OZ/USA where condtions are better and i feel much more valued by the service I'm in

Hmmm..sounds like sour grapes to me

Blush_01 · 04-04-2007 06:44PM

ferdi wrote:

find it difficult to muster up sympathy for those in the public sector. compared to the rest of us, they're laughing.

Oh for gods sake, you're a student.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Public opinion doesn't support the nurses.

Well paid, pensions,good conditions.job security.

Doran dragged this issue too far.... people expect to see him crash and burn.

Sorry, could you clarify what country you're talking about because I'm a bit confused. I thought that public sector pensions came from the wages of the public sector employees automatically rather than being an optional arrangement. If they have good pensions that's because they're PAYING for them THEMSELVES from their WAGES. They, as has been illustrated, aren't all that well paid at all. Likewise, if the job conditions are so good, how come we're losing such a huge volume of nurses annually to other countries and have had to supplement our nursing staff so heavily with recruits from outside Ireland despite thousands of new nursing graduates annually?

About the only thing you got vaguely right is the job security, and even that doesn't apply to everyone as so many nurses are on temporary contracts.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 06:45PM

nurse_baz wrote:

now see, i don't have a major problem with the review of services etc....but i have no faith in the current healthcare management. if i thought, yep they'll get the review done quick and we;ll all talk about it and work out some sort of plan to phase it in, that'd be great. But remember, this issue hasn't crept up on them. 27 years ago it was raised. The INO passed motions in 2001 looking for it again and making it a priority for Benchmarking 1. that was the process that was supposed to sort it all out, without any need for striking or work to rules.....and it didn't. this has been a long time coming lads. whats to stop the HSE reviewing the situation and in 6 months time saying.....well it'll take about 15 years.....so answers no......back to square 1. Meanwhile, me and all my mates have pissed of to OZ/USA where condtions are better and i feel much more valued by the service I'm in

so what did the benchmarking decide??? im sure it did not ignore the issue and it was looked into and found impractical and undoable..........

the nurses agreed to benchmarking and because they are not getting everything they want right now they kick up a tantrum.....just like when the labour court told you a few weeks/months ago that you it was fair and right for you to pursue these claims threw the benchmarking process but again the nurses expected that the labour court would cave in but it didnt so here comes the tantrum.......thats exactly how it looks from the outside. thats not my exact opinion on the matter and even if it was you would not agree with me but the point is this is how it looks and it is not doing your claims or your profession any good

oh btw spouting all this crap about the labour court 27 years ago is a load of b****x it was a different country back then...for one thing I was not even born...the health system was different the population was different and the government was different you cannt base your claims on a 27 year old ruling that is off littel or no relevance today

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:45PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Public opinion doesn't support the nurses.

Well paid, pensions,good conditions.job security.

Doran dragged this issue too far.... people expect to see him crash and burn.

Doran hasn't dragged anything anywhere. Having been at the meetings this issue has pretty much solely been driven by the members for a number of years now. Yes, he is the public face of it all, but he gets and has gotten several times his mandate for this campaign from the members. Not sure if you know how organisations like the INO/PNA work, but everything is voted upon by the membership. the current campaign was passed by 96% of INO members and 97% of PNA members, with a voter turnout rate in the 80%'s i think, maybe higher.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 06:49PM

nurse_baz wrote:

Doran hasn't dragged anything anywhere. Having been at the meetings this issue has pretty much solely been driven by the members for a number of years now. Yes, he is the public face of it all, but he gets and has gotten several times his mandate for this campaign from the members. Not sure if you know how organisations like the INO/PNA work, but everything is voted upon by the membership. the current campaign was passed by 96% of INO members and 97% of PNA members, with a voter turnout rate in the 80%'s i think, maybe higher.

just out of curiosity why have the other unions not joined in the dispute??

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:50PM

Correct me if I am wrong,but is there not a process called Benchmarking which is set up to ensure that public sector employees,despite their job security,have a relation with comparable wages in the private sector????

So... the nurses think that THEY are above and beyond all this, that they are a special breed who are underpaid and overworked and downtrodden to boot.

I'm a taxpayer....pull the other one please.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:51PM

PeakOutput wrote:

the nurses agreed to benchmarking and because they are not getting everything they want right now they kick up a tantrum.....just like when the labour court told you a few weeks/months ago that you it was fair and right for you to pursue these claims threw the benchmarking process but again the nurses expected that the labour court would cave in but it didnt so here comes the tantrum.......thats exactly how it looks from the outside. thats not my exact opinion on the matter and even if it was you would not agree with me but the point is this is how it looks and it is not doing your claims or your profession any good

well the nurses along with several other groups (teachers/bank officials etc) have not signed up to Towards 2016 (benchmarking). Benchmarking 1 basically told us to sod off, and this round hasn't been much better.

i can understand your point about tantrums,and how things look. But for the best part of a year now, nurses and the unions have been following all the procedures that currently exist for resolving grievances, and no agreement has been made.

Benchmarking while the the Governement may say it is the only show in town is quite clearly not this. If it was, then why have several groups (radiographers, admin/clerical staff/ senior HSE management) all had pay awards outside of it, following standoffs? If benchmarking REALLY was the only way forward, then this issues would have been sorted out ages ago.

As for not agreeing with you, well isn't that what debate is all about??

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:53PM

nurse_baz wrote:

Doran hasn't dragged anything anywhere. Having been at the meetings this issue has pretty much solely been driven by the members for a number of years now. Yes, he is the public face of it all, but he gets and has gotten several times his mandate for this campaign from the members. Not sure if you know how organisations like the INO/PNA work, but everything is voted upon by the membership. the current campaign was passed by 96% of INO members and 97% of PNA members, with a voter turnout rate in the 80%'s i think, maybe higher.

heh heh... heh heh heh... I know Exactly how those organisations work.....;)

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:55PM

PeakOutput wrote:

just out of curiosity why have the other unions not joined in the dispute??

well there is only one other union that has nurses and thats SIPTU. the SIPTU nurses make up only a very small part of the overall vote so as most SIPTU heads supported BEnchmarking they didn't really have much of voice. Its interesting though that SIPTU have lodged claims pretty much identical to the INO/PNA with the HSE and all on behalf of their members.

Also anecdotally, and from SIPTU nurse friends, there has been a membership exodus from them to the INO/PNA in the past few months as many feel that they've been sold out

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:56PM

nurse_baz wrote:

well the nurses along with several other groups (teachers/bank officials etc) have not signed up to Towards 2016 (benchmarking). Benchmarking 1 basically told us to sod off, and this round hasn't been much better.

i can understand your point about tantrums,and how things look. But for the best part of a year now, nurses and the unions have been following all the procedures that currently exist for resolving grievances, and no agreement has been made.

Benchmarking while the the Governement may say it is the only show in town is quite clearly not this. If it was, then why have several groups (radiographers, admin/clerical staff/ senior HSE management) all had pay awards outside of it, following standoffs? If benchmarking REALLY was the only way forward, then this issues would have been sorted out ages ago.

As for not agreeing with you, well isn't that what debate is all about??

heh heh.. benchmarking expects measureable productivity in return for wage increase.

At least the Govt. recognised waffle instead of legitimate productivity.

No rubber stamp there;)

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 06:57PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Doran dragged this issue too far.... people expect to see him crash and burn.

You appear to have limited knowledge of the workings within a trade union. The executive reflect the views of the members. You seem to think the tail is wagging the dog. If the HSE-EA come up with a plan or proposal, it will be put to a ballot of members. Liam Doran or Des Kavanagh will not make the decision.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:59PM

Correct me if I am wrong,but is there not a process called Benchmarking which is set up to ensure that public sector employees,despite their job security,have a relation with comparable wages in the private sector????

yes there is, of course but see my other points on Benchamarking. IN the principle I have no problem with A benchmarking process. it makes sense, but when it has been consistatly ben broken for others it hardly logical that the Governement now says its the only show in town. Also, seeing as neither benchmarking process so far has allowed for any of the nurses issues to be debated never mind resolved, what faith can we have in it?

So... the nurses think that THEY are above and beyond all this, that they are a special breed who are underpaid and overworked and downtrodden to boot.

no, i don't we've said that, have we? we've decided not to endorse Towards 2016, AT PRESENT, as it doesn't allow for anything to get sorted out. Other groups have done the same you know

I'm a taxpayer....pull the other one please

ditto mate......so with that logic, does that mean i kinda pay my own wages? or at least part of them?

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:59PM

:rolleyes:

You don't swallow that do you??

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:01PM

Nice one.. you only want Benchmarking when it shells out dosh for no increase in productivity.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:02PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

heh heh.. benchmarking expects measureable productivity in return for wage increase.

At least the Govt. recognised waffle instead of legitimate productivity.

No rubber stamp there;)

very true....so how will we measure the productivity of a nurse........give more injections? wipe more bums?

have nurses not recently been given the power to prescribe.....broadening their role and scope of practice, delivering productivity within an overstretched systema nd freeing up medics time? DO we not now have nurse run clinics all over the place, especially in areas such as sexual health and chronic illness, again increasing this productivity you speak of? what else would you have us do?

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:05PM

take your claim through the benchmarking process like everyone else...thats all;)

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 07:06PM

why are the other unions not involved??

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 07:08PM

nurse_baz wrote:

well there is only one other union that has nurses and thats SIPTU

nurse baz - you are forgetting about IMPACT.

(albeit a small nursing membership).

The problem with SIPTU and IMPACT is that they are not dedicated nursing unions and are therefore constrained by the views of the non-nursing membership.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:10PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

take your claim through the benchmarking process like everyone else...thats all;)

so do you conceed that nurses are delivering the fabled productivity that you speak of?

and then what would your advice be when the benchmarking process that we've already tried twice to get to solve things, doesn't solve anything?

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:12PM

As a matter of interest, if the nurses conditions were so bad ,why are we not hearing Joe Higgins, the other unions ,Clare Daly and other supporters of well looked after public sector workers,kicking up a storm????

Cant hear anything>>>>>

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 07:13PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

nurse baz - you are forgetting about IMPACT. (albeit a small nursing membership).

The problem with SIPTU and IMPACT is that they are not dedicated nursing unions and are therefore constrained by the views of the non-nursing membership.

hmmmm so siptu need to ballot their entire membership if it is a nursing issue???? that surely cannot be the case

Snake Plisken · 04-04-2007 07:13PM

Just wanted to add my opinion that The Nurses are totally wrong here and out of line, 35 hours a week and a 10 percent pay rise, I don't think so. I hope the government hang tough on this, otherwise we'll have the rest of the public sector looking for the same. As for the nurse who wouldn't make the call for the Baby as highlighted in the Mail yesterday, I hope she gets sacked.

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 07:13PM

nurse_baz wrote:

so do you conceed that nurses are delivering the fabled productivity that you speak of?

and then what would your advice be when the benchmarking process that we've already tried twice to get to solve things, doesn't solve anything?

So it doesn't solve anything if it doesn't shovel out the dosh????

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 07:21PM

PeakOutput wrote:

hmmmm so siptu need to ballot their entire membership if it is a nursing issue???? that surely cannot be the case

I presume their nursing section would ballot independently but there may be a different ethos overall e.g being in ICTU, Partnerships etc.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 07:21PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I presume their nursing section would ballot independently but there may be a different ethos overall e.g being in ICTU, Partnerships etc.

but would being in a union that is not supporting the strike not imply that they are against it?

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:25PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

So it doesn't solve anything if it doesn't shovel out the dosh????

i've asked you 2 direct questions there mate and you haven't answered them?

thats not what i said at all.......withing the prevous benchmarking process, nurses issues where not looked at, and the process failed us. The second process isn't too far behind that, and the members of both unions saw this.

Benchamrking has already been broken several times as I've mentioned several times in repsonse to your points, so is it not now true to say that it is not the only mechanism?

Towrds 2016 is about a whole raft of issues, and the members of both unions have not rejected it. they have said that until, one way or another, they get what they feel are legitimate issues sorted, they'll not be deciding or doing anything on it. Other groups have already decided that they are wither rejecting or accepting it.

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 07:27PM

PeakOutput wrote:

but would being in a union that is not supporting the strike not imply that they are against it?

to the best of my knowledge SIPTU members were ballotted as a whole on the issue of Towards 2016.

SIPTU have lodged claims on behalf of their nursing members, but anyone I know in work thats SIPTU hasn't heard anything about these.

SIPTU have basically told thier members not to compromise anyone elses work to rule, and to carry on as normal really, but not to be used to fill gaps

The Nurses.

Comments