The Nurses.

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 01:11PM

What about it?

its the same for everyone.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 01:23PM

kmick wrote:

As regards Unions - they are cowboys.

A trade union is it's members! 97% of nurses are members of one of the four recognised nursing unions. Are you implying that they are all "cowboys"?

PeakOutput wrote:

still no1 on the pro nurse side has explained how the system will cope after the working week shortage

Presumably it will be done by contracted additional hours/overtime as in previous years until the situation is gradually resolved.

6ix · 04-04-2007 01:24PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

What about it?

its the same for everyone.

I'm aware of that. I was responding to the point that they were among the highest paid in Europe. As has been shown before, a staff nurse's pay is 28-40k approx, depending on experience. This is not classified as being highly paid IMO.

Another poster pointed out that they are most highly paid in Europe, and I feel that that is irrelevant, as you cannot compare like for like when the cost of living is so different.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 01:31PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

A trade union is it's members! 97% of nurses are members of one of the four recognised nursing unions. Are you implying that they are all "cowboys"?

Presumably it will be done by contracted additional hours/overtime as in previous years until the situation is gradually resolved.

so they are effectively fighting for shorter hours so they can then do overtime to make up those lost hours by earing time and a half or double time........get out of it.............if the job is stressfull enough that they need a shorter week then the majority will not sign up for the over time..............if they have no problem signing up for overtime then they dont need a shorter week,imo

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 01:42PM

PeakOutput wrote:

so they are effectively fighting for shorter hours so they can then do overtime to make up those lost hours by earing time and a half or double time........get out of it.............if the job is stressfull enough that they need a shorter week then the majority will not sign up for the over time..............if they have no problem signing up for overtime then they dont need a shorter week,imo

I'm presuming that the HSE administration will request that they do overtime. That is an administration problem. It would up to them to sort it out.

Just remember, the Nursing Unions haven't played their trump card yet. Many nurses make themselves available to do additional hours. Frequently managers beg them to do extra hours. They are under no contractual obligation to do so. Many hospitals are managing to stay afloat because of this. If the nurses withdraw their availability for additional hours, there would be chaos. That would be a major headache for the employers yet the nurses would not be on strike and would not have broken any contractual agreements.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 01:53PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I'm presuming that the HSE administration will request that they do overtime. That is an administration problem. It would up to them to sort it out.

Just remember, the Nursing Unions haven't played their trump card yet. Many nurses make themselves available to do additional hours. Frequently managers beg them to do extra hours. They are under no contractual obligation to do so. Many hospitals are managing to stay afloat because of this. If the nurses withdraw their availability for additional hours, there would be chaos. That would be a major headache for the employers yet the nurses would not be on strike and would not have broken any contractual agreements.

so you are prepared to accept an inferior service for a higher price?

nesf · 04-04-2007 01:55PM

Tha Gopher wrote:

It seems to be that you cant criticise the nurses. I have seldom if ever heard a politician or commentator lash them in the same way the teachers or guards got during their strikes.

Essentially, nurses in particular, have a special place in people's hearts. Though I doubt it has anything to do with them being overworked, underpaid or under-resourced. It's a more basic thing than that and not that reasoned out.

Teachers used to have a similar position, but these things can and do change. If the nurses push industrial action too far, I'm not sure what it is but if wildcat strikes start and patients start suffering more then the mood might shift.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 01:59PM

Edit: Duplicate Post.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 02:01PM

PeakOutput wrote:

so you are prepared to accept an inferior service for a higher price?

Why would it be inferior? (or any more inferior than it is now?)

nesf · 04-04-2007 02:02PM

What I find interesting about this is that on one hand the nurses think that the Labour Court's rulings are gospel (re. the 35 hour work week) and on the other hand they want to disregard it (re. the ruling that they should take their pay concerns to the benchmarking system).

These are two separate issues, and in fairness the HSE doesn't seem opposed to a 35 hour working week, but I dislike the "pick and choose" mentality involved here.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-04-2007 02:05PM

PeakOutput wrote:

so they are effectively fighting for shorter hours so they can then do overtime to make up those lost hours by earing time and a half or double time........get out of it.............if the job is stressfull enough that they need a shorter week then the majority will not sign up for the over time..............if they have no problem signing up for overtime then they dont need a shorter week,imo

That's right Nurses just dream about doing overtime. In your blinkered view you probably might not imagine in the slightest for example that many nurses are mothers for example and want and need the extra time to spend with their kids. They question why it is fair for other grades in less demanding occupations to get more benefits.

My other half is a nurse but doesn't agree with the strike. As she is not a member of a union she will absolutely answer the phones and use the computers at work. Strangley enough I don't think the other nurses on her ward call her a scab or treat her differently.

Mitch Connor · 04-04-2007 02:09PM

nurses went on a proper strike in austrailia, all just walked out. the strike last 28 seconds and all their demands were met.

However, I would not condone a full on strike here, nor do i believe one will happen. I have spoken to nurses, and though they voted in favour of a strike, or the threat of one, i have not met one who would actually go on strike - they simply would not want to endanger lives.

To all the people complaining about shorter weeks and getting paid more; why should the nurses work longer for less pay? Why should their conditions not be comparable to the rest of hospital staff. If it means more nurses have to be employed, so what? It is not the fault of the nurses, it is the fault of the government, and also - since when is the creation of "4000" jobs a bad thing - people get up in arms when 300 people in a factory lose jobs, celebrate when a company opens a new office emplying a hundred or so, you see it on the news all the time - why is the creation of 4000 nursing posts a bad thing?

I believe the media, and the hospitals have behaved poorly during the work to rule. Why is it such a big deal that nurses work to rule - loads of people in other professions would refuse to engage in work that was not part of their job description, so why should nurses get a hard time for doing the same? Patient care has not been compromised, and to say it has is a disgrace. Cavan hospital canceling 14 operations yesterday was a joke too - there was no need for it, the operations could have gone ahead without problems, or are nurses required to be using a computer/on the phone during an operation?

Two comments i have read have annoyed me greatly.

1. A poster said that the nurses should be ashamed of themselves because a mother could not ring regarding her daughter - Why could an admin staff member or a doctor answer the phone? Why are nurses the only people in the hospital with the ability and intellegence to use a phone?

2. Another poster was in a rage because his wife was going to be having a child soon, and felt his child and wife would be put at risk by nurses actions - this just shows a complete lack of understanding from the father to be, and its because of the media sensationalising the actions being taken.

Mitch Connor · 04-04-2007 02:12PM

nesf wrote:

What I find interesting about this is that on one hand the nurses think that the Labour Court's rulings are gospel (re. the 35 hour work week) and on the other hand they want to disregard it (re. the ruling that they should take their pay concerns to the benchmarking system).

These are two separate issues, and in fairness the HSE doesn't seem opposed to a 35 hour working week, but I dislike the "pick and choose" mentality involved here.

They have takeen it to benchmarking, and have got nothing out of it - and as for the HSE not being opposed to the 35hour week - they have flatly said they will not give the nurses a 35 hour week, as it would need the hiring of 4000 more nurses, they are completely opposed to it from what i have seen.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 02:14PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Why would it be inferior? (or any more inferior than it is now?)

its not that difficult a concept to grasp really................

there is a cerain amount of work that needs to be done.........they are working 39 hour weeks at the moment and are still short staffed so the work is not all getting done

so we reduce the working week which as i said before affectively increases the amount of nurses we need by one for every seven currently employed, we dont have these extra nurses and therefore work goes undone........

i do not think it is acceptable that they are given a shorter working week and a pay rise(as i said earlier this would mean a 20% increase in their hourly wage) just for them to work the same as they were for even more money by doing overtime

jimmy what i am saying is that it is a double edged sword..........i am not saying they will or wont do overtime im simply saying that either way the health service loses out when it is in a state were we cannot afford it to get any worse

nesf · 04-04-2007 02:22PM

Tauren wrote:

They have takeen it to benchmarking, and have got nothing out of it

Your point? They aren't entitled to this pay rise any more than any other civil servant is entitled to the pay rise they want.

Tauren wrote:

and as for the HSE not being opposed to the 35hour week - they have flatly said they will not give the nurses a 35 hour week, as it would need the hiring of 4000 more nurses, they are completely opposed to it from what i have seen.

Last night on Prime Time the HSE representitive said that once a risk assessment/stress test (etc.) had been done on it a 35 hour work week could be brought in. They didn't seem to be opposed to it in principle. A stress test/report etc would have to be done before it was brought in anyway on responsibility grounds.

Plus, the Labour Court recommended a 35 hour work week plus 4 hours overtime as standard. This in itself would be a, substantial, pay rise. It's unclear exactly what's being argued for here from the unions. If they want 35+4 as standard then this, really, is a pay issue. If they want a straight 35 hour work week and can show that it won't cost extra (as in, a substantial number of nurses won't have to be hired just to cover the lost four hours per nurse, per week) then I think we could all agree that it is a reasonable demand.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 02:23PM

Tauren wrote:

nurses went on a proper strike in austrailia, all just walked out. the strike last 28 seconds and all their demands were met.

the government could meet their demands tomorrow if they wanted it does not change the fact that the health service will be worse off because of it

To all the people complaining about shorter weeks and getting paid more; why should the nurses work longer for less pay? Why should their conditions not be comparable to the rest of hospital staff. If it means more nurses have to be employed, so what? It is not the fault of the nurses, it is the fault of the government, and also - since when is the creation of "4000" jobs a bad thing - people get up in arms when 300 people in a factory lose jobs, celebrate when a company opens a new office emplying a hundred or so, you see it on the news all the time - why is the creation of 4000 nursing posts a bad thing?

there are not 4000 nurses to take the jobs that its the problem.

nurses are working longer than people in DIFFERENT jobs and getting paid less than people in DIFFERENT jobs........its not like theres a nurse in one hospital working 35 hours and the rest are not they are different posts with different job descriptions

Two comments i have read have annoyed me greatly.

1. A poster said that the nurses should be ashamed of themselves because a mother could not ring regarding her daughter - Why could an admin staff member or a doctor answer the phone? Why are nurses the only people in the hospital with the ability and intellegence to use a phone?

thats not what i said i said

the nurse refused to find out the test results of an 8 week old baby who had already had two infections. this baby was in a bad way and needed to be treated correctly. the nurse said "you are entitled to your opinion" she did not try and organise someone else to get the results but left the mother to go to the doctor/consultant who said he would do his best to ring the lab but couldnt guarantee he would be able to that day. THE NURSE SAT ON HER HOLE AND LET THE BABY SUFFER UNNECESSARILY

2. Another poster was in a rage because his wife was going to be having a child soon, and felt his child and wife would be put at risk by nurses actions - this just shows a complete lack of understanding from the father to be, and its because of the media sensationalising the actions being taken.

so you dont think refusing to imput medical records onto the computer for everyone to see is a risk at all???

J.R.HARTLEY · 04-04-2007 02:25PM

the gas thing is how everything falls down when nurses ork to rule, I.E. they only do what they are paid to do.
so when the nurses aren't running around picking up after administrative staff and doctors the hospitals fall apart, says it all really, take it from someone whos spent most of the last 3 years in hospital, the nurses don't deserve 10% they deserve way more.
last nights Herald had a trash press article on the front page where a mother complained that her 8 month old baby was in danger because the nurses wouldn't ring another hospital and get test results for a doctor. was the doctor paralysed, did he have crippled hands that couldn't dial the phone himself, too much BS in the hospitals. so many young qualified nurses are being lost to countries like Australia, simply because they have a decent structure over there. Back bite about the nurses all you will, if you're ever sick in a hospital in the middle of the night its not a doctor you'll be calling for trust me.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 02:28PM

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

the gas thing is how everything falls down when nurses ork to rule, I.E. they only do what they are paid to do.
so when the nurses aren't running around picking up after administrative staff and doctors the hospitals fall apart, says it all really, take it from someone whos spent most of the last 3 years in hospital, the nurses don't deserve 10% they deserve way more.
last nights Herald had a trash press article on the front page where a mother complained that her 8 month old baby was in danger because the nurses wouldn't ring another hospital and get test results for a doctor. was the doctor paralysed, did he have crippled hands that couldn't dial the phone himself, too much BS in the hospitals. so many young qualified nurses are being lost to countries like Australia, simply because they have a decent structure over there. Back bite about the nurses all you will, if you're ever sick in a hospital in the middle of the night its not a doctor you'll be calling for trust me.

see above

also working to rule is not working to the minimum contract requirements its working to the minimum that wont put peoples lives at risk

btw ot; i probably sound like i have a bone to pick i dont really just think its an interesting discussion about a group who in the past have seemed immune to criticism

J.R.HARTLEY · 04-04-2007 02:41PM

it is amazing how the country is split and how the different reporting polarises the views
well i can safely say one thing if you think the nurses are doing little now you should see what consultants and admin staff get away with,wait til the consultants and mary harney come to proper loggers, then there'll be serious whooha and hoolaboola*

*Whooha and hoolaboola open to interpretation at time of occurrence, and are subject to licence, booking fee applies

nesf · 04-04-2007 02:47PM

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

the gas thing is how everything falls down when nurses ork to rule, I.E. they only do what they are paid to do.

No, in reality they are paid to do more. A work to rule "strike" involves doing the absolute minimum that you can within the rules and health and safety requirements of a firm with a view to causing a "slow down". Health is odd in the amount of "traditional" but not "required" tasks that most of it's workers do but most jobs involve it to some extent.

For instance, in most (if not all) workplaces, certain tasks fall between pre-defined roles. Usually they are picked up by whoever is available, for instance, you could have a situation where a secetary's role is to answer the phone on her desk and no one else has this role. In a normal work situation her manager or whatever will cover the phone when she's not at the desk and take calls. In a work to rule, when she's not at her desk, no one answers the phone.

Mitch Connor · 04-04-2007 03:01PM

PeakOutput wrote:

the government could meet their demands tomorrow if they wanted it does not change the fact that the health service will be worse off because of it

there are not 4000 nurses to take the jobs that its the problem.

nurses are working longer than people in DIFFERENT jobs and getting paid less than people in DIFFERENT jobs........its not like theres a nurse in one hospital working 35 hours and the rest are not they are different posts with different job descriptions

Two comments i have read have annoyed me greatly.

thats not what i said i said

the nurse refused to find out the test results of an 8 week old baby who had already had two infections. this baby was in a bad way and needed to be treated correctly. the nurse said "you are entitled to your opinion" she did not try and organise someone else to get the results but left the mother to go to the doctor/consultant who said he would do his best to ring the lab but couldnt guarantee he would be able to that day. THE NURSE SAT ON HER HOLE AND LET THE BABY SUFFER UNNECESSARILY

so you dont think refusing to imput medical records onto the computer for everyone to see is a risk at all???

How was teh baby suffering? Was it not being looked after? If that is the case then it is the fault of the nurse, and not in line with the 'work to rule' action.

Anyway; this is the comment i was refering to:

purplengold wrote:

Just seen on the 5:30 news, a small baby sick and in isolation and the nurses will not answer the phone to his distraught mother. Shame on them.

Not by you, and different.

As for the medical records - that is what clerical staff are for, that is part of their job, not the nurses.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 03:03PM

PeakOutput wrote:

its not that difficult a concept to grasp really................

You seem to have trouble grasping it.

PeakOutput wrote:

there is a cerain amount of work that needs to be done.........they are working 39 hour weeks at the moment and are still short staffed so the work is not all getting done

Many are working way in excess of 39 hours to keep thing afloat. The short staffing is not the nurses' problem. It is an government/administration problem caused by mis-management over the years.

Suppose you go into your local supermarket and there are long queues at the tills. When you enquire as to why some tills were unmanned you are informed that they have a problem recruiting and retaining staff due to poor wages and conditions of employment. The staff there are already doing additional hours to cover but the shop is barely coping.

Now would you blame the girls on the checkouts for seeking better conditions of employment in that senario or would you say that the place is not being managed properly in the first place. Most people would say the latter IMO.

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

My other half is a nurse but doesn't agree with the strike. As she is not a member of a union she will absolutely answer the phones and use the computers at work.

Presumably she will opt out of taking any improved pay and conditions that may materialise from the campaign.

nesf · 04-04-2007 03:17PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Presumably she will opt out of taking any improved pay and conditions that may materialise from the campaign.

Would she be less entitled to a pay increase because she didn't strike?

ferdi · 04-04-2007 03:36PM

find it difficult to muster up sympathy for those in the public sector. compared to the rest of us, they're laughing.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 04:57PM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You seem to have trouble grasping it.

Many are working way in excess of 39 hours to keep thing afloat. The short staffing is not the nurses' problem. It is an government/administration problem caused by mis-management over the years.

Suppose you go into your local supermarket and there are long queues at the tills. When you enquire as to why some tills were unmanned you are informed that they have a problem recruiting and retaining staff due to poor wages and conditions of employment. The staff there are already doing additional hours to cover but the shop is barely coping.

Now would you blame the girls on the checkouts for seeking better conditions of employment in that senario or would you say that the place is not being managed properly in the first place. Most people would say the latter IMO.

Presumably she will opt out of taking any improved pay and conditions that may materialise from the campaign.

if you read what i said you would see that i agree with the pay increase...

using your analogy they get their reduced working hours and realise that they still can't recruit more people as there are only so many people who want to do that job. the next time you go to the shop its closed 2 hours early due to not having the staff

i never said the staff shortage was the nurses problem however it is not reasonable from a national perspective to give in to their demands when it is not in the best interest of the country

i think we should give them the pay increase have arecruiting drive for 3/4 years and then when we have the staff reduce their working hours. that is what is best for the country not just what is best for the nurses

Bob the Builder · 04-04-2007 05:08PM

Why is there a shortage of nurses anyway? Oh yah, because no one will take on such a ****ty job with **** pay, and so much accountability. When the doctor kills a patient by giving them 10 times the dosage recommended, who do you think it's easiest to blame?

If your relative died in a hospital because of an error in dosage, you wouldn't blame a doctor, you'd be too emotionally distraught to go find the doctor to eat his/her head off. You would charge immediately with a punch for the nurse who told you that your close relative died. The problem is that them assholes of doctors always run away before they can get accountability, leave into the nurses. They have to have their head eaten off anyway by other people.

Yes compare the nurses salary to a teachers salary. A teacher works 30hr's a week(9am to 4pm) and receives summer holidays, christmas holidays, etc, etc.

Nurses work flexi hours, when I was young, my mother was a nurse in an elderly home, We never saw her during christmas because she had to work ****ty hours to actually pay for dinner, that she wasn't able to enjoy when she came home from her workplace, because she was physically/mentally drained.

How can you compare that to teaching?? huh?
</rant>

<FACT> 27years ago, they were told they should get this hour per week reduction, still waiting, Bertie Ahern said he'll give it to us, but as usual never put a date on it. <FACT/>
....And we still vote for these gob****es in a general election. Mary Harney thinks she can play the fiddle to the HSE, she can, but whoever put her into a dictator's position?? But then again, she's earning up to €150k a year, she can pay taxes no problem, she's got her own driver, she doesn't work as long a week as nurses do, and gets three times as much for dictating?? hmmmm....

And an interesting comparison to jobs that I heard on the radio yesterday, a man talking:

...I run a business, if that business fails, I start losing money. My Wife is employed in a hospital, if she fails, a human body as just turned to a corpse in front of her? She tells that patients family, and naturally enough, the family are sad, but she's just as sad. She looks around, no doctor to be seen. It was that doctor that prescribed that dose that ultimated in the casualties death, but such a distraught family can only blame one person, the nurse. My wife comes home drained. My children pretty much get the blunt end of the knife. I dont want my family to grow up like that.

Would you want your family grown up, with your mother coming home every day feeling like piss? Think about it!

~NevF

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 05:24PM

nevf wrote:

Why is there a shortage of nurses anyway? Oh yah, because no one will take on such a ****ty job with **** pay, and so much accountability. When the doctor kills a patient by giving them 10 times the dosage recommended, who do you think it's easiest to blame?

If your relative died in a hospital because of an error in dosage, you wouldn't blame a doctor, you'd be too emotionally distraught to go find the doctor to eat his/her head off. You would charge immediately with a punch for the nurse who told you that your close relative died. The problem is that them assholes of doctors always run away before they can get accountability, leave into the nurses. They have to have their head eaten off anyway by other people.

Yes compare the nurses salary to a teachers salary. A teacher works 30hr's a week(9am to 4pm) and receives summer holidays, christmas holidays, etc, etc.

Nurses work flexi hours, when I was young, my mother was a nurse in an elderly home, We never saw her during christmas because she had to work ****ty hours to actually pay for dinner, that she wasn't able to enjoy when she came home from her workplace, because she was physically/mentally drained.

How can you compare that to teaching?? huh?
</rant>

<FACT> 27years ago, we were told we should get this hour per week reduction, still waiting, Bertie Ahern said he'll give it to us, but as usual never put a date on it. <FACT/>
....And we still vote for these gob****es in a general election. Mary Harney thinks she can play the fiddle to the HSE, she can, but whoever put her into a dictator's position?? But then again, she's earning up to €150k a year, she can pay taxes no problem, she's got her own driver, she doesn't work as long a week as nurses do, and gets three times as much for dictating?? hmmmm....

And an interesting comparison to jobs that I heard on the radio yesterday, a man talking:
~NevF

we can do round and round all day saying they have such a hard life god help the nurses they do this and that all of which are true but in the real world nothing will change if they get what they want accept they will have a bit more money.they will still be pressganged into overtime people will still shout at them and patients will still die.

noone has even tried to give a logical explanation on how the service we pay for will improve by giving the nurses a shorter week. im all for them having it when there are enough nurses but not until then

editing to respond to your edit

have you read a word i have said................if you had you would see i agree with all you said but giving them a shorter week and forcing them to work the extra anyway is not going to solve anything. a short term solution to the problem is not possible its that simple really

Dr Galen · 04-04-2007 06:30PM

6ix wrote:

Now I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get the above?According to the INO website, the following is the salary scale for a staff nurse. I would doubt, therefore that the average would be more than 35-36k.

€28878-€30323-€31772-€33218-€34659-€35904-€37152-€38395-€39639-€40861- 42165

from here

right here goes.......multiple posts ahoy

as far as I'm aware, this "average" was calculated by adding up all the salaries of all the nurses in the system and dividing them by the number of nurses......fair enough......but as with all average figures, its not exactly the most accurate at reporting the reality. take for example the newly qualified nurse with a few years experience, they'll be on circa 30k or a bit above....but then add in the directors of Nursing and senior nurse management working in the HSE (who as nurses I'm sure were counted eventhough they sit in offices) they are going to be on 60k+. so IMO this average figure doesn't really reflect the reality, and thus why so many nurses are so angry. what would be interesting would be if we had figures broken down by payscale of all the nurses in the country. that way we could see the reality of the wage structures

FlutterinBantam · 04-04-2007 06:33PM

Public opinion doesn't support the nurses.

Well paid, pensions,good conditions.job security.

Doran dragged this issue too far.... people expect to see him crash and burn.

04-04-2007 06:36PM

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Public opinion doesn't support the nurses.

Well paid, pensions,good conditions.job security.

Doran dragged this issue too far.... people expect to see him crash and burn.

what good conditions? and it's the same pension as anyone else...

The Nurses.

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